The Jews residing in Germany are mentally ill they support qurananimals

[Yaakov Mendel]

So stay in Germany where at the very least, holocaust denial is illegal though a leftist country or go to Israel where the bolshevik government may remove you from your house by force for being Jewish and arrest you if you pray at your temple mount? Hard decision...

Hard decision for a Jew, to choose between Germany and Israel if he wants to live a Jewish life ? You gotta be kidding ! This is absurd.

[Yaakov Mendel]

What you said here is quite true, but how can every single Jew living in Germany be considered a supporter of muslim nazis and a traitor?    You (and Ron) really think that every single Jew supports the traitor group mord is identifying and exposing here?

It's like calling every american Jew scum because of the ADL.   What about thousands of Jews who hate abe foxman?

Where did I say that all Jews living in Germany support Muslims ? Precisely I made a clear distinction in my post, saying that I would not wish death to anyone simply because they live in Germany (although I find it quite shocking for a Jew to do so). Please read my entire post before criticizing it.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Im sorry but I do not agree that we are commanded to curse Jews who live outside of Israel. There are many commands that the Torah obliges a Jew, and many Jews who live in Israel are violating those commandments. There are important commandments which could be fulfilled every day and people are trampling even those commandments. Why should we not curse all non-religious people for their ignoring the commands of Hashem? How about those who do not keep kosher, or those who do not observe Shabbat?

Do we not alienate many Jews by cursing Jews who live in Germany? I do not know any German Jews at this time yet I think that there may be reasons why they remain. Do you think that Hashem will not judge us harsher if we are cursing Jews who are suffering for some reason in that country? I will not join in cursing them, I am sorry to say...

My hope is that there will come a time when they will see that Israel is the only hope for Jewish survival. The galut will come to an end either through assimilation or war.

No-one said that Jews who live outside of Israel must be cursed just because they live in the Exile. And, you are right, a lot of Jews who live in Israel violate more commandments than many Jews who live in the Exile and who are good Jews apart from the fact that they should make aliyah (which is a severe violation of the Torah, though, let's not underestimate it...).
Those who may deserve to be cursed are the traitors, according to the gravity of their betrayal, including Israeli Jews of course.

[Yaakov Mendel]

I disagree. Some are born there and are living there to no fault of their own.   I do agree they should get the hell out of there, however.   But to say that they are all traitors is a bit much.   If all it takes is to live in a certain place and that equates to giving "support" or credibility of some kind to the evil powers residing there and/or that used to reside there, then There is no place on earth where one can live and not be in support of evil.  Israel included.

I agree with Chaim to a large extent.
You are right to point out that no Galut Jew is guilty of having been born in the Exile. They couldn't help it and it is not a crime. However, once they have grown up and they are in a position to make aliyah, then they make a choice by staying in the Exile. Especially today, when Israel is a modern country with economic opportunities and various programmes to facilitate aliyah. It is a fact that the Torah commands Galut Jews to gather in Israel. So staying in the Exile under these circumstances is a violation of the Torah. There is only a couple of restrictive exceptions that the Sages have laid out, such as when leaving the Exile may endanger the lives of your relatives and your loved ones (if you have to stay to look after your ill mother, for example). Now, can such a violation be called treason ? I believe it can, to a certain extent, given the fact that Israel is a tiny country under pressure and under immense threat. Israel needs Galut Jews to come and strengthen the Jewish state, the Jewish army, she needs Galut Jews to come and bring their skills, their resources, their commitment. If, G-d forbid, Israel was badly hurt in the next predictable phase of hostility with Arab Nazis, then Galut Jews would bear their share of responsibility.
I emphasize that what I am saying applies to Jews who claim to be Torah Jews, not to ethnic Jews who have chosen to assimilate.
Now, what should be the punishment for that form of treason ? It's not for me or anybody else to decide, this is clearly HaShem's prerogative. My personal belief, rooted in the Torah, is that HaShem judges individual Jews with infinite wisdom and understanding of every aspect of each Jew's individual situation, and that He is a loving Father to His people. Staying in the Exile just because you have a high-paying job there and you are afraid to earn less in Israel seems to me to be a wrong reason. But there can be more serious obstacles, and HaShem is aware of them.
Now, all that I have discussed was about Jews in the Exile in general. As for Jews choosing to stay in Germany, I would be much more assertive in saying that it is a form of treason. I am not going to repeat all I have already said in this thread, the bottomline is that it is obvious that there is something special about Germany ! To me, a Jew who doesn't view himself as assimilated and who chooses to live in Germany had better come up with a very convincing explanation for making that decision. Claiming that it is difficult to move because of language barriers or job search is not enough, this is just looking for an excuse.
Finally, not all forms of treason are on the same level and I think that there are Israeli Jews who are much worse traitors than Galut Jews, especially the Israeli Jews who harass the Jews of Judea and Samaria.

[Spiraling Leopard]

I agree with Chaim to a large extent.
You are right to point out that no Galut Jew is guilty of having been born in the Exile. They couldn't help it and it is not a crime. However, once they have grown up and they are in a position to make aliyah, then they make a choice by staying in the Exile. Especially today, when Israel is a modern country with economic opportunities and various programmes to facilitate aliyah. It is a fact that the Torah commands Galut Jews to gather in Israel. So staying in the Exile under these circumstances is a violation of the Torah. There is only a couple of restrictive exceptions that the Sages have laid out, such as when leaving the Exile may endanger the lives of your relatives and your loved ones (if you have to stay to look after your ill mother, for example). Now, can such a violation be called treason ? I believe it can, to a certain extent, given the fact that Israel is a tiny country under pressure and under immense threat. Israel needs Galut Jews to come and strengthen the Jewish state, the Jewish army, she needs Galut Jews to come and bring their skills, their resources, their commitment. If, G-d forbid, Israel was badly hurt in the next predictable phase of hostility with Arab Nazis, then Galut Jews would bear their share of responsibility.
I emphasize that what I am saying applies to Jews who claim to be Torah Jews, not to ethnic Jews who have chosen to assimilate.
Now, what should be the punishment for that form of treason ? It's not for me or anybody else to decide, this is clearly HaShem's prerogative. My personal belief, rooted in the Torah, is that HaShem judges individual Jews with infinite wisdom and understanding of every aspect of each Jew's individual situation, and that He is a loving Father to His people. Staying in the Exile just because you have a high-paying job there and you are afraid to earn less in Israel seems to me to be a wrong reason. But there can be more serious obstacles, and HaShem is aware of them.
Now, all that I have discussed was about Jews in the Exile in general. As for Jews choosing to stay in Germany, I would be much more assertive in saying that it is a form of treason. I am not going to repeat all I have already said in this thread, the bottomline is that it is obvious that there is something special about Germany ! To me, a Jew who doesn't view himself as assimilated and who chooses to live in Germany had better come up with a very convincing explanation for making that decision. Claiming that it is difficult to move because of language barriers or job search is not enough, this is just looking for an excuse.
Finally, not all forms of treason are on the same level and I think that there are Israeli Jews who are much worse traitors than Galut Jews, especially the Israeli Jews who harass the Jews of Judea and Samaria.

This still doesn't whitewash ron's viciously anchored hate or megalomanian delusion that he would have something to say about anyone.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I would like to see what Chaim says about the German Jews who are not pro-Muslim, and who haven't had a compelling case made to them as to why they should make aliyah.

Yes Germany is still Nazi Germany to this very day, but the vast majority of people all over the world assume that it is no longer Nazi, including many Jews. I don't think we can reasonably expect most non-JTF Jews to instinctively realize this. If average Israelis don't instinctively recognize that all Arab Muslim Nazis need to be expelled (and they are actively murdering them as we speak), I don't really think that German Jews can be expected to see that Germany is still Nazi at a time that the German authorities are not actively shooting them or taking them to death camps.

[Yaakov Mendel]

This still doesn't whitewash ron's viciously anchored hate or megalomanian delusion that he would have something to say about anyone.

My point is not to "whitewash" Ron. In my view, this thread is not about Ron or anybody else. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has already read some of my posts knows that I sincerely respect righteous Gentiles. I even consider it as a blessing to work with truly righteous Gentiles (not phonies).

[mord]

Well then we must discuss Jews who lived in Russia the Russians did a good Job of killing Jews without modern equipment.As well as Syrian Jews the Syrians had very big pogroms in the 17Hundreds

[Yaakov Mendel]

I would like to see what Chaim says about the German Jews who are not pro-Muslim, and who haven't had a compelling case made to them as to why they should make aliyah.

Yes Germany is still Nazi Germany to this very day, but the vast majority of people all over the world assume that it is no longer Nazi, including many Jews. I don't think we can reasonably expect most non-JTF Jews to instinctively realize this. If average Israelis don't instinctively recognize that all Arab Muslim Nazis need to be expelled (and they are actively murdering them as we speak), I don't really think that German Jews can be expected to see that Germany is still Nazi at a time that the German authorities are not actively shooting them or taking them to death camps.

I wouldn't say Germany today is still Nazi Germany. The condition of Jews has nothing to do with what it was during the third Reich. There are neo-Nazis, but the main form of antisemitism is hatred toward Israel and support for the Arabs, because that's politically correct. The level of antizionism is not significantly higher in Germany than in the rest of Europe, though. The primary reason why Jews should not live in Germany is to honour the memory of their people. Any Jew who has Jewish pride and a Jewish soul can feel this.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Well then we must discuss Jews who lived in Russia the Russians did a good Job of killing Jews without modern equipment.As well as Syrian Jews the Syrians had very big pogroms in the 17Hundreds

The Jews who lived in Russia were not free to leave. The Communists forbade them. As soon as they had the chance to leave, they fled Russia.

[mord]

The Jews who lived in Russia were not free to leave. The Communists forbade them. As soon as they had the chance to leave, they fled Russia.

What i'm talking about is close to half the Jews fled Russia in the late 1800's

[Zelhar]

בס''ד

Jews who live in Germany are traitors. How can any Jew live in a nation that murdered over 6 million Jews? It is an unforgivable crime.

How could Jews live in Babylon, and in Rome after the genocide that they had committed against us ? There are Jews who live in Israel and are traitors and there are Jews who live in Germany and are not. I am sorry but I think your hatred to Germany blinds you to the point that it makes you hate and curse random Jews.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

How could Jews live in Babylon, and in Rome after the genocide that they had committed against us ?

For this reason, when Rabba bar bar Chana was swimming in the Jordan river (See Yoma 9b) on one of his many trips to Eretz Yisrael (he taught at the yeshiva in Pumbeditha), as he put out his hand to Resh Lakish, a great amora of Eretz Yisrael, for a greeting, he was instead met with the words "G-d, I hate you [Babylonians]!"
Then Resh Lakish quotes the verse: Song of Songs (8.9), "If she be a wall, we will build upon her a turret of silver, and if she be a door, we will enclose her with boards of cedar."
The interpretation:  "Had you only returned to Eretz Israel, when Ezra so called you to do, like a solid fortress wall, the position would have been radically different."

Rav Unterman's (once chief rabbi of Israel) explaination of this passage in detail is found here:
http://www.ahavat-israel.com/eretz/aliya.php


However, I think it's quite clear that there is a major difference between a legitimate gripe with galuth Jews and a resulting resentment vs. actually wishing them dead or calling them scum that should be slaughtered by muslim nazis!

There is a major difference.   And I think Ron and Chaim should consider that.

There are Jews who live in Israel and are traitors and there are Jews who live in Germany and are not.

  This point can't be ignored.  

I am sorry but I think your hatred to Germany blinds you to the point that it makes you hate and curse random Jews.

I also think it looks like it has come to that.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

As much as this pains me, I think this is the first time where I significantly disagree with Chaim on a point of policy.

Yes Germany is still Nazi Germany, and yes the majority of Jews living there are self-haters who deserve fierce judgment, but some are just ignorant and a few are genuine rightists who just haven't gotten around to aliyah for whatever reason.

For that reason I cannot agree with cursing every last German Jew.

[Muck DeFuslims]

I sure hope Chaim doesn't think advocating and rooting for the slaughter of Jews living in Germany is appropriate behavior or should be a policy embraced by JTF.

Chaim, if you're endorsing statements like:
"Jews living in Nazi Germany are sub-human scum who have to be burned into fumes.
 Muslims, have fun slaughtering those GermaNazi and Judenrat pigs!"

Well then, you've gone off the deep end.

You want to call the Jews living in Germany traitors ? Fine.
You want to accuse them of committing an unforgivable crime ? Fine.

But to call them sub-human scum that have to be burned into fumes ?
To hope that Muslims slaughter them ?

Sorry, that's where you lose me.

I know those weren't your words, Chaim. But since you took the time to articulate why you think Jews living in Germany are traitors that are committing an unforgivable crime, I'd be interested to know if you agree with Ron that they should be burned into fumes and slaughtered by Muslims.

In all honesty, posts like the one Ron made should concern all JTF members.

Where does JTF draw the line ?

Should Jews that drive a Mercedes Benz or a BMW also be considered traitors ?

How about a Ford ?

Since I've heard you say America was responsible for the death of the Jews in Auschwitz by refusing to bomb the railways leading to it, maybe JTF should brand Jews living in America as traitors too.

Do you consider a Jew like David Ben Moshe a traitor ?  He lives in America and I recall you saying he has no desire to live in Israel.

How about the Jews living in Spain ?  Are they traitors ? After all, there was an Inquisition.

How about the Jews living in the U.K. ?

Let's be honest, if JTF is going to brand every Jew living in a country that has persecuted, murdered and slaughtered Jews, well then, just about every Jew not living in Israel is a traitor.

I know that I don't subscribe to that viewpoint, but I won't condemn others for thinking they are. After all, the Torah mandates Jews live in Israel and that they're transgressing by not doing so - regardless of whether the particular country they're residing in is hostile to Israel and the Jews or not.

But to call for their slaughter ? Does the Torah call for that ?

How about Jews in Israel that purchase German products ?  Sailors in the IDF that serve on German made Dolphin submarines ? Are they all traitors too ?

Should we advocate their slaughter and turning them into fumes as well ?

And finally, what about the non-observant Jews ?

Are they all traitors too ?

What would their fate be in an administration or government with leaders like Ron ?

Mass movement ?

Think about it.

[White Israelite]

Chaim, how do you feel about Jews living in America?

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Should Jews that drive a Mercedes Benz or a BMW also be considered traitors ?

How about a Ford ?

Yes, yes, and yes [add to the list: Volkswagen, Jaguar, Porshe, and a slew of others; Jews do not have many moral choices when it comes to automobiles].

The Germans and British played a "good cop/bad cop" role that led to the murder of 6 million Jews.  To get a car made by these countries because... "they sure murdered a lot of Jews, but they do make some schnazzy cars", is beyond sick. -- What a disease we are fighting. I went to a "Bat Mitzvah" today that I was invited to, it was at a Conservative Shul...  what a heavy feeling to have seeing so many BMW's and Benzes while cutting through the parking lot to the Shul [to drive on Shabbat is one thing, to drive a Nazi-sled on such occasion is another!]...  Hitler [YS"V] was a major Benz man, parading about town in a premium Benz, always...  so yes, just accusations of being a traitor are in the air when we see Jews driving these vehicles [though the moniker of blame may belong to the previous generation or the next latter for failing to endow upon their children a proper Jewish education].

---

Jews in Germany have one legitimate function; to visit a raining down of hellfire, extracting justice from the German people who murdered 6 million Jews. -- However, no boots need be laid on the ground; nuke the entire country from above.  Germany has sucked down too much of our oxygen for far too long.  With the Help of Heaven, the State of Germany will exist only in history books [Russia as well, and and also Britain].