Support Israel? support the IDF? think again.

[Rubystars]

I understand criticizing the IDF and Israeli leadership but saying don't support "Israel" as the poster suggests can probably be confusing for people.

[Dr. Dan]

Are they going to have their own Airforce and Navy?  Are the Jews of Judea and Samaria going to in effect, have their own nations.  The Egyptians do and they have the most modern and sophisticated weapons. 

You have to understand something.  The mentality of these Muslim animals is not to put all of one's eggs in one basket and use a ton of air force to try and quash a bunch of Jewish settlers.  Rather, they would think, "Ha! We'll get our rag tag team together and they can quash them easily."  And sure enough, they make that move and they'll see what the small number settlers can do to their more numerous army men...

It's like this.  Why didn't Russians attack Israel in 1948 to help the Arabs?  Weren't they much more powerful?  Because they saw how a much more outnumbered Israeli nation totally destroyed 7 surrounding Arab nation. 

How do you think the slaves of Egypt were able to defeat the Cannanites and surrounding nations? 

If the settlers were well armed they would win battles...and it would freak out the Arab enemies...and regular Israelis would see how they win battles and will demand the IDF to fight like the settlers...

It will take the settlers to show the rest of the ISraelis what it means to be a winning prideful Jew instead of a loser self hating woody allen Jew.

[Dr. Dan]

I understand criticizing the IDF and Israeli leadership but saying don't support "Israel" as the poster suggests can probably be confusing for people.

It's bad PR if you ask me.

Better to make a comparative poster that the IDF leadership is weak and can't even defeat the Arab enemy...time to take Israel back in the hands of really proud Jews who know how to defeat the enemy.

[Rubystars]

It's bad PR if you ask me.

Better to make a comparative poster that the IDF leadership is weak and can't even defeat the Arab enemy...time to take Israel back in the hands of really proud Jews who know how to defeat the enemy.

That could be good.

[heyuguys]

the russians didn't attack because they didn't want to bring america into the conflict. both america and the soviets used israel and the arabs respectively to fight on their behalf.

[MyJewishSoul]

What do you mean by this? You are a new member here and you are commenting without understanding the purpose of JTF.

Actually I am not a new member, I have been a member since March 11, 2008, as Semper_Fi_Marine. I just lost my password, (until a few days ago) and also wanted a more appropriate name to fit the site.

What I meant in my reply was that I don't understand how you can say not to support Israel because of one news article you saw that was probably not true, but even if it was, it is no reason to stop supporting Israel. I'm sick of so-called Jews attacking Israel any chance they get, just because they feel that it makes them seem more compassionate. We Jews don't have a lot of worldly support these days and it would be stupid to start turning on each other. I LOVE and support Israel and the IDF with all of my heart and soul, nothing will ever change that.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

thats ridiculous. how would the settlers defend themselves against egyptian, syrian or jordanian tanks and artillery and jets? they would all be killed. the muslims are cowards and incompetent but they still would easily kill the jewish pioneers simply by massively outgunning them. israelis need to all stick together and not be divided.

Do you realize that 2/3 of the combat people in the idf are settlers?

[Rubystars]

Do you realize that 2/3 of the combat people in the idf are settlers?

Why do they expel other settlers?

[Secularbeliever]

Do you realize that 2/3 of the combat people in the idf are settlers?

That is why the premise of this whole thread is faulty.  The idea that supporting the settlers means hating the IDF is not true.  Most settlers support the IDF.

[muman613]

Actually I am not a new member, I have been a member since March 11, 2008, as Semper_Fi_Marine. I just lost my password, (until a few days ago) and also wanted a more appropriate name to fit the site.

What I meant in my reply was that I don't understand how you can say not to support Israel because of one news article you saw that was probably not true, but even if it was, it is no reason to stop supporting Israel. I'm sick of so-called Jews attacking Israel any chance they get, just because they feel that it makes them seem more compassionate. We Jews don't have a lot of worldly support these days and it would be stupid to start turning on each other. I LOVE and support Israel and the IDF with all of my heart and soul, nothing will ever change that.

Listen...

I have supported Israel for many years. This is not one or two reports of destroyed Jewish homes and synagogues. There has been a long history of this happening. I have seen scenes from Gush Katif and Ammona which turn my stomach. That the IDF could have committed those atrocious acts makes me sick. The people whose homes and lives are destroyed by the actions of the IDF which obviously are commanded by people who have no love of the Jewish nation have every right to be angry. This government was elected with the mandate of not giving in to the left wing and the arabs and yet it has failed in its promise.

I join those who question the validity of using Jewish troops to evict Jewish dwellers in the land which Hashem gave us, and which we (Jewish people) have shed blood in defending.

[muman613]

How can any Jewish troop in good conscience commit the act of desecrating the Torah? This is a question we must ask...

Did Moshe stand by as his fellow Jew was being beaten by the Egyptian task-master? Obviously not.... Did Moshe stand by as his fellow Jew was being beaten by a fellow Jew? No he didn't, and he did not stay quiet. This is why he had to flee Egypt because he feared a fellow Jew ratting him out.

[Secularbeliever]

It's like this.  Why didn't Russians attack Israel in 1948 to help the Arabs?  Weren't they much more powerful?  Because they saw how a much more outnumbered Israeli nation totally destroyed 7 surrounding Arab nation. <<

First of all the Russians were supportive, at least partially, of Israel in 1948.  More to the point, the Jordanians did slaughter the residents of Gush Etzion who put up a heroic resistance to them before falling.  I think the settlers could handle some terrorists but unless they were organized into an actual army with air power would have trouble dealing with the PA Nazis let alone the force of a real army like the Egyptians or Jordanians without the protection of the IDF.

[muman613]

I definately would support an IDF which was more tolerant of religious soldiers and had a more patriotic view of the Jewish land. In the past I considered the IDF one of the greatest fighting forces in the middle east. I do believe that they have a technical superiority to the neighbors. But even with all the military might in the world, without righteousness it means nothing. Israels army will not succeed if it is used to hurt the so-called settlers of Judea and Samaria. I cannot support them in this, and Hashem will certainly not support them {as our Torah explains}.

[MyJewishSoul]

It's like this.  Why didn't Russians attack Israel in 1948 to help the Arabs?  Weren't they much more powerful?  Because they saw how a much more outnumbered Israeli nation totally destroyed 7 surrounding Arab nation. <<

First of all the Russians were supportive, at least partially, of Israel in 1948.

But the Soviet Union supplied both Egypt and Syria with weapons in the Arab-Israeli War of 1967.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

That is why the premise of this whole thread is faulty.  The idea that supporting the settlers means hating the IDF is not true.  Most settlers support the IDF.

But they should not support something that canabalizes them.   They should threaten to leave the IDF en masse, unless certain political goals are achieved.   

[Secularbeliever]

But the Soviet Union supplied both Egypt and Syria with weapons in the Arab-Israeli War of 1967.

Things changed between 1948 and 1967.  Even our own George Washington warned against permanent alliances and most nations follow their own interests which can change over time.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Why do they expel other settlers?

I don't think it's the combat units that are doing expulsions.

Of the small amount of soldiers who conscienciously objected and had to serve jailtime for refusing orders to expel Jews, I think they were all settlers.     On the other hand, there probably are some settlers who carry out these types of evil orders because they have sick people misleading them such as Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, who instructed all his robot followers that they MUST OBEY and that destroying settlements is good because the Israeli regime can only do good.

[Secularbeliever]

But they should not support something that canabalizes them.   They should threaten to leave the IDF en masse, unless certain political goals are achieved.   

Something to keep in mind is that the IDF is not a monolithic group.  Much of the IDF is very pro settler.  I visited an unauthorized outpost that might someday get destroyed by the IDF.  In the meantime an IDF soldier is guarding it.  The problem is the national political leadership is anti Jewish and anti Nationalist, at least the Minister of Defense.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Something to keep in mind is that the IDF is not a monolithic group.  Much of the IDF is very pro settler.  I visited an unauthorized outpost that might someday get destroyed by the IDF.  In the meantime an IDF soldier is guarding it.  The problem is the national political leadership is anti Jewish and anti Nationalist, at least the Minister of Defense.

Yes, which is why I think it is a very potent political tool to unify the pro-settler people and call on them to join an effort to quit the army unless certain conditions are met.   It would shock the country.

[MyJewishSoul]

I think a very good solution to this problem would be to expel all Arabs from Israeli land.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The problem isn't the Jewish state in and of itself, which is a neutral institution, or even the satanically evil Israeli government, but the vast majority of Israelis who want (or tolerate) these pogroms in the name of "peace" and showing the world that they are "impartial".

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I understand criticizing the IDF and Israeli leadership but saying don't support "Israel" as the poster suggests can probably be confusing for people.

I agree with you that it looks bad to attack the state of Israel as an institution (rather than an individual regime) but most Israelis support this evil for various sick and brainwashed reasons.

Quite frankly most Israelis deserve whatever may happen to them. I don't agree with Ron a lot of the time but I can't really blame him on this topic.