Author Topic: Shalom  (Read 30393 times)

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Offline Dan Ben Noah

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Shalom
« on: April 07, 2012, 05:58:47 PM »
Shalom
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 05:13:28 PM by Dan Ben Noah »
Jeremiah 16:19 O Lord, Who are my power and my strength and my refuge in the day of trouble, to You nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Only lies have our fathers handed down to us, emptiness in which there is nothing of any avail!

Zechariah 8:23 So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

Offline Zelhar

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Offline Zelhar

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 11:43:44 AM »
I find him repulsive and I think he is doing a great disservice for Judaism. He is a very bad spokesperson and presenter but that's the least of the problem. The major ones is that he some of the things he says are without validity and even sacrilege, and another one is that he is preaching to Christians and Jews aren't supposed to do that.

Offline edu

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2012, 05:26:58 PM »
Most non-chassidic ashkenazi Jews follow the Mishna Brura. Mishna Brura rules that Zohar is not to be followed if it contradicts, standard halachic texts and the poskim.
Mishna Brura does however, (unlike Chatam Sofer) give the Zohar a tie breaking role, if there is an argument among the standard halachic sources.
This is to say, the Dor Daim speaker goes too far in his attack on the beliefs of other Jews. One does not have to be a Rambamist, to have halacha supersede zohar views.
Chatam Sofer and in our times, Rabbi Dovid Bar Chaim have almost entirely taken out zohar from halacha considerations and they are not Rambamists.
point 2, Even if the vast majority of the Zohar was written at a much later date, nevertheless it is still many centuries old and will at times provide useful new outlooks and commentaries. We don't have to "throw the baby out with the bathwater." We just have to be somewhat more skeptical.
 To be honest though after having been convinced about the late authorship of many parts of the Zohar, I personally try to minimize my connection and contact with the book. But I don't look down upon others, who are more "into the Zohar" as long as they aren't violating halacha.
point 3, Rabbi Saadia Gaon indeed, does reject the idea of reincarnation. But Ramban, writing one generation before the Zohar interprets the Biblical book of Iyov {Job}  33:30 as well as Breishit Genesis 38:8, as supports for reincarnation. This seems to me, an optional belief in Judaism, where you are free to accept or reject. It is not a fundamental element one way or another of Judaism.


Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2012, 09:00:19 PM »
point 3, Rabbi Saadia Gaon indeed, does reject the idea of reincarnation. But Ramban, writing one generation before the Zohar interprets the Biblical book of Iyov {Job}  33:30 as well as Breishit Genesis 38:8, as supports for reincarnation. This seems to me, an optional belief in Judaism, where you are free to accept or reject. It is not a fundamental element one way or another of Judaism.

 Can you please bring the uotes from the RambaN if possible? I heard this before, but would like to see it.
 
 As far about the video's above- some are good and true, some are bad and wrong.
  And I also take the approach of Rav Bar-Hayim, he says not to follow only the Rambam, we have many Hachamim and their vast knowledge should be applied to making Halahic decisions. Also note about Jerusalem Talmudh vs. Bavli, its a misconception that he favors the Jerusalem over the Bavli, he uses both as well as the the valid sources of Halacha for decision making. (as listed by the Rambam and Chazal.)
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2012, 09:09:05 PM »
Here a good response and video on this (link to 2 responses and the video)

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/43-philosophy/584-the-authenticity-of-the-zohar-update-01
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 09:39:24 PM by Tag-MahirTzedek »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2012, 09:29:17 PM »
I have never read the Zohar, what is so bad about it? Mysticism? Wasn't there a lot of mystical things about King Solomon?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2012, 09:30:20 PM »
Here a good response and video on this (link to 2 responses and the video)
?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2012, 09:39:46 PM »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2012, 10:52:21 PM »
DBN-  "3.  Reincarnation is a doctrine that is spiritually harmful because if true, people don't have to be good because they'll get a another chance in another life."

 Not true necessarily. In fact most of the time its presented and used to scare the people. Anyway I saw today that it was mentioned again and I also see the faces of some of the simple people, I just think to myself just let them be.
 I personally don't believe in it, not now, but perhaps their is a chance, maybe. Their are and can be major problems with these beliefs and I blame partly the speakers. Our priorities are simple messed up and even when things like the Beit Hamikdash and Korbanot are mentioned I see such mistakes and wrong halachot being said- over and over again especially with the attitude of we cannot do this or do that. When in fact we can, and must. (One example is Korban Pessah).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2012, 11:28:48 PM »
I too find this guy to be a fool who is attempting to discredit Judaism. I would not even listen to a word he says knowing his opinion.

We have discussed the pros and cons of the Zohar many times. There is much good in the Zohar and I have never heard anything which contradicts the Torah in it.

There is something fishy when one Rabbi attempts to paint himself as the one authentic Jewish Rabbi and all the rest are fakers. I have learned from many Rabbis and I know what is authentic Judaism and what is false. I have studied Torah for almost 10 years and have a lot of sources to draw from, and the Zohar and Chassidic and Sephardic Judaism are as Authentic Judaism as it gets.

I don't know what a Rambamist is? Is that something someone made up? I just spent all weekend with one of my favorite Chabad Rabbis who revealed he studies Rambam every day. Does this make him a Rambamist?

And the comment about Gilgul is completely ignorant in my opinion. That you think that you get another chance just like that? Your challenges in the next life are going to be a real test according to your weekness... It is not something to wish on yourself..


Also I have not met a Rabbi who says that the Halacha is that we should not offer the Pesach. Even according to Chabads own Halacha page it is discussed, and if you listen to the Chabad Rabbis it is clear that we want to rebuild the Temple and offer the Pesach offering. I do not listen to anything other than Orthodox Rabbis and I do not share the opinion of several posters of them..


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 12:38:19 AM »
I have learned from many Rabbis and I know what is authentic Judaism and what is false. I have studied Torah for almost 10 years and have a lot of sources to draw from, and the Zohar and Chassidic and Sephardic Judaism are as Authentic Judaism as it gets.


 What does that exactly mean? By authentic do you mean to say "accepted"? And who says that having numbers (in theory) makes an idea or ideas correct or not? You need to prove your claims.


I don't know what a Rambamist is? Is that something someone made up? I just spent all weekend with one of my favorite Chabad Rabbis who revealed he studies Rambam every day. Does this make him a Rambamist?


 They are people who follow the Rambam in both philosophy and Halacha. And no a Chabadnik is farrrr from a Rambamist. For the most part a mirror opposite. Rambamists are rationalists in the strictist sense. Chabad are Hassids who are more on the mystical side.


Also I have not met a Rabbi who says that the Halacha is that we should not offer the Pesach. Even according to Chabads own Halacha page it is discussed, and if you listen to the Chabad Rabbis it is clear that we want to rebuild the Temple and offer the Pesach offering. I do not listen to anything other than Orthodox Rabbis and I do not share the opinion of several posters of them..


 Maybe you havn't but I heard a number of them. Just in fact I heard it this Yom Tov as well.
"Of them"- Serveral of the posters including myself are Orthodox. If of them you mean generally Haredim, then yes you can count me in. I will openly state the Charedi ideology will not move forward and get things done. It just won't happen.
 Temple? Korbanot? Jewish state?  These things do not exist in the Haredi ideology. Not in the present. Maybe in the distant past and only a fantasy for the future, but only a fantasy. NOT in actual deed.

 And about Rabbis is Rabbi Elyashiv not Haredi enough?
 http://www.haaretz.com/news/prominent-rabbi-to-peres-jews-forbidden-on-temple-mount-1.6463
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 01:01:35 AM by Tag-MahirTzedek »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 01:24:04 AM »
I agree there is a great disagreement about whether Jews can go to the Temple mount.

As I said I listen to Rabbi Richman who discusses this issue quite a bit.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/aliya_temple_mount.htm

Here is Rabbi Richmans response to Rabbis who oppose Jews on the Temple mount:

"Chief rabbis prohibit Jews from entering Temple Mount" (Jan. 19) took a minimalistic approach to a complicated and vastly misunderstood issue. Like other matters of complex and erudite Torah knowledge, the subject of the Temple Mount is an area in which one must have an expertise before issuing a judgment. Unfortunately, it is an area of study that has been largely neglected, even by Torah authorities. To say that there is a prohibition against Jews visiting the Temple Mount is misleading and inaccurate, and does a serious injustice to the many religious Jews, great rabbis among them, who do ascend the Mount today in strict accordance with all the requirements of Jewish law, based for example on the previous halachic ruling of the great Radbaz (Rabbi David ben Zimra, 1479-1573). Any religious ruling must be firmly based on Torah law and must be substantiated; authentic rulings cannot be based on opinion, feelings, or alleged security concerns. No group of rabbis have the authority to uproot a Torah law, and according to the "due process" of the formation of halacha, a religious ruling must be based on sources. It should be noted that the great codifier Maimonides establishes as a positive commandment that showing proper reverance (morah mikdash) to the holy site of the Temple Mount even in its present state of disrepair means, for example, "entering into the permitted areas" (Maim. Hilchot Beit HaBechira Ch. 7, 7). Indeed, Maimonidies himself - in the tradition of the great sages of Israel - ascended to the Temple Mount, in spite of great personal danger, and prayed there. He gives the date as the sixth day of Cheshvan and writes that he was so moved to have "entered into the great and holy house and prayed there on the sixth of Cheshvan... and I vowed an oath, that I will always celebrate this day as a personal festival, to be marked by prayer and rejoicing in G-d, and by a festive meal (Maimonides, Letters).

Anyone seeking information regarding how to ascend the Temple Mount in accordance with Jewish law may contact us at [email protected]. Further information is available at www.templeinstitute.org

Rabbi Chaim Richman
Director, The International Department
The Temple Institute
Jerusalem"



PS: All the Chabad Rabbis I know consider Maimonides to be a central Jewish authority. There is nothing about Rambam which precludes belief in the more mystical aspects of Judaism.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1806271/jewish/Audio-Classes-on-Maimonides.htm

http://www.rabbiwein.com/Rashi-and-Rambam-Two-Worldviews--3-Lectures-P174.html

http://www.torahcafe.com/jewishvideo.php?vid=4125bb847
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 01:36:22 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2012, 01:44:26 AM »
"PS: All the Chabad Rabbis I know consider Maimonides to be a central Jewish authority. There is nothing about Rambam which precludes belief in the more mystical aspects of Judaism."

 I said mystical in order to be nice. Its also more of irrational aspects as well of Chabad. Anyway the Rambamists are usually rationalists to the extreme. Also the writings of the Rambam are much more geared for rationalism and looking at the world much more logical sense, than suppose Chassidic or Kabbalistic works (and i'm familiar with some of them, not saying they are bad just the styles are complelty different.) The Rambam also includes some esoteric things but not really in the sense and style of lets say Chassidut or the kabbalists. (And in fact was against some of the kabbalist books going around even before the Zohar which today are fully accepted by the kabbalists as is the Zohar.)


.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2012, 03:44:00 AM »
Dan Ben Noah stated:
Quote
Clearly, when verses 29-30 talk about turning someone away from "the pit" two or three times, it is talking about G-d giving them multiple chances to escape the death of their souls through repentance, NOT through reincarnation.  The hypothetical sinner in the passage does not actually die, he is kept from death through circumstances G-d graciously gives him in order to encourage him to repent.  1.  This should just be obvious from the plain meaning of the text.  2.  Repentance is a doctrine that is spiritually beneficial because it actually encourages people to be good.  3.  Reincarnation is a doctrine that is spiritually harmful because if true, people don't have to be good because they'll get a another chance in another life.

Now let's look at Genesis 38:8
Genesis 38:8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.”

This is the custom of levirate marriage in order to ensure a man has children to carry on his name.  Not multiple lives.  I'm not even sure how this could be connected to reincarnation.
Someone like Rabbi Saadia Gaon might indeed interpret the verses like you did, Dan.
However, let's take the first quote from Iyov/Job. The context of the passage, was in light of the bigger question of the whole book, how can it be that you sometimes see in this world, a righteous person who suffers. Ramban (Nachmanides) interpreted the verse as answering that a person might be reincarnated and come back to a situation where he suffers in a new life as an atonement for what he did in a previous life and so Iyov was being told, even though now you are a righteous man, don't question G-d about your suffering, because perhaps in a previous life you did some evil deed that needs now atonement through suffering.
In other words, according to Ramban's view, belief in reincarnation actually helps strenghten the observance of commandments by convincing those that see suffering that G-d indeed is a true and fair judge.
You Dan, might have a different solution to the question of Why Bad Things Happen To Good People.
I am just trying to fairly represent Ramban's opinion here.
As far as the quote from Breishit/Genesis, Ramban understood to answer several problems with the text, that the Levirate Law of Marriage (Yibum) helps the soul of the departed brother via reincarnation.
As I said before other great Rabbis interpreted the text differently and you are free to adopt whichever interpretation, you find more truthful. I am just bringing this up, to show that Ramban's viewpoint is not ridiculous.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2012, 04:25:18 AM »
I know, but he's right on the Rambamist issue just like he's right on his videos which disprove Christianity and Islam.  The problem is Jews are so messed up at this point in history that most of them are not as accurate as they could be politically (aka not Kahanists) as well as religiously (aka not Rambamists).  He's apparently some form of Rambamist, but not a Kahanist just like there are Kahanists who are not Rambamists.

To be a "rambamist" (knowing what that word actually means and assuming you meant it that way) is not "religiously accurate" it's stupid and bound to be inaccurate.  Slavishly devoting oneself to every single ruling of one rabbi and convincing oneself that they were always right about everything is wrong, no matter which rabbi.  It is a slaughtering of a person's daas and a surrender to irrationality.

I say this as someone who feels the Rambam should be relied upon in the vast majority of cases and should have much more weight than shulchan aruch for example.  But the Rambam himself would not have wanted a person to defend a point of view of the rambam if the person thinks that one view is completely wrong and can be proven so, just because of some misplaced "loyalty" to his fame or stature.  Goes against all that he taught.  But that's how "rambamists" are.

Offline edu

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2012, 04:32:05 AM »
Dan, you might appreciate Rambam's views when it comes to mysticism, but if you look at other issues, you will probably appreciate other viewpoints that argue with Rambam.
Take for example, Bilaam's talk with his donkey or Yaakov's (Jacob's) wrestling with an angel.
Rambam views these incidents as prophetic dreams while I believe most Rabbis believe that they literally took place. If you are a strict Rambam person down the line, you might find yourself, stuck with several opinions that you might not hold to be the truth.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2012, 12:33:59 PM »
"the pagan innovations made by the mystic movements and the Zohar (aka the Book of Mormon of Judaism).  "

 Please dont make such rediculous comparisons. Anyway the Zohar is rejected, but not entirely. Its a complicated subject and not black and white.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2012, 01:05:05 PM »
A Rambamist is someone who follows the Mishneh Torah as their halachic guide as opposed to the Shulchan Aruch.  It's not someone who holds every opinion the Rambam ever held, just like followers of the Shulchan Aruch in practice don't hold every opinion that its author Rabbi Yosef Karo ever held.  Another word for Rambamist is "talmid haRambam" (student of the Rambam).  The only major ethnic Jewish group that holds by the Mishneh Torah over the Shulchan Aruch is the Yemenites.  This group is the most rational group and has not only a purer religious tradition but a purer form of Hebrew.  They did not experience the schisms that took place in Europe (Reform, Conservative and the Orthodox reaction) or the pagan innovations made by the mystic movements and the Zohar (aka the Book of Mormon of Judaism).  The terms "Talmidei HaRambam" and "Rambamists" can be used to denote Jews who have attached themselves to Mishneh Torah observance even though they are not of Yemenite descent.  There are Yemenite rabbis such as Rabbi Yihiye Kafach who have written against the Zohar.  Since one rabbi doesn't trump plain reason, it should be clear to anyone (not just Rambamists) who can read that the above verses don't speak about gilgul, and if you want support for gilgul I'd say consult Hindu texts.

Is it not funny that a non-Jew is telling Jews what is more Jewish? I find it ironic..

Have you ever heard of Chutzpah? Ever learn what Lashon Hara is?

Im just waiting for the esteemed Dan to start attacking the Talmud as satanic...


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2012, 01:28:16 PM »
Rabbi Yihiye Kafach was in fact the founder of the dardaim. It was a reactionary halachic school to the increasing influence of kabbalah on the mainstream Yemenite Jewish community.

I don't think it's fair to dub the Zohar "the book of mormon of judaism". It is definitely a valid argument to say the zohar isn't suppose to be given such high rank and even though it isn't a rational book and isn't a halachic book but a mysticism book (or books to be more accurate).

The fact that the zohar or kabbalah are supposedly the foundation to heretic religions like that of the cult of kabbalah by "rabbi" shraga berg doesn't mean the zohar itself is heretic.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2012, 01:31:04 PM »
Is it not funny that a non-Jew is telling Jews what is more Jewish? I find it ironic..

Have you ever heard of Chutzpah? Ever learn what Lashon Hara is?

Im just waiting for the esteemed Dan to start attacking the Talmud as satanic...
What's your problem man, why won't you compile a reply based on the content rather then the person who expressed it ?

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2012, 01:31:34 PM »
Have you ever heard of Chutzpah? Ever learn what Lashon Hara is?


 What he said was/is not Lashon Hara.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2012, 02:53:26 PM »
What he said was/is not Lashon Hara.

Yes, as he is not a Jew he is not capable of Lashon Hara. But what he has done is defamed an entire segment of Jewish identity.

There is no comparison between the Zohar and the book of Mormon... Such comparison sounds almost like the claim by the Jew haters that our Oral Tradition is satanic. The Zohar is the source of a lot of the Jewish mysticism but it is surely not the singular source as the Torah and the Oral law are replete with mystical content.

As was discussed in the forum so many times, there has always been the PaRDeS system of interpreting the Torah, the Pshat {simple meaning} the Remes, the Drash, and the Sod {Hidden/mystical}.

I find it funny that a Rationalist doesn't find it odd to believe in Angels and in Miracles which the Torah and the Oral law, and even RAMBAM discusses. Today a 'rationalist' who needs a rational answer for every mitzvot would find RAMBAM to be not so rational when it comes to two of his THIRTEEN PRINCIPLES, these being:

9) I believe with absolute faith in the ressurection of the dead
10) I believe with absolute faith in the coming of Moshiach, and though he delays I wait every day.

These two, where are they in the Torah? Neither the Ressurection nor Moshiach coming are discussed unless you look into deeper sources such as the Talmud.

I am working today but I hope to expound further arguments which support so-called 'mystical' beliefs of Judaism. I have accepted that all the Zohar is not what it seems, but this is not a reason to discount it entirely.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2012, 03:19:30 PM »
Muman you are right about principles 9,10. And not all Jews agree on them for that reason.

Personally I think 9 is a fairy tail that cannot be positively proved from our holly scripture. As for 10 well it doesn't necessarily mean something entirely supernatural. And there is not a word about either 9 or 10 in the Torah. It's all based on a certain way of understanding certain prophetical passages in the bible and on a whole lot of imagination piled up on that over the years.

But anyway it's just my own secular opinion and I don't have any authority to say what the proper Jewish opinion should be.

Offline muman613

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Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2012, 03:20:47 PM »
One bit I wanted to post was about Rambams opinion on Techiyat HaMatim/Resurrection of the Dead:

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/to-live-and-live-again/02.htm

Quote
Rambam's Definition

In his Discourse on the Resurrection,[2] Rambam writes: "The concept of Resurrection - which is well known among our people and accepted throughout all its circles, and which is often mentioned in the prayers and aggadic teachings and supplications (written by the prophets and the foremost Sages) with which the Talmud and the Midrashim are replete - signifies the following: The soul will return to the body after they have been separated [by death]. No Jew has disputed this concept, and it cannot be interpreted other than literally. One may not accept the view of any Jew who believes otherwise.

"As I shall explain in the present discourse: Why should we not interpret these verses [regarding the Resurrection] allegorically, as we have done with many other Biblical verses, departing from their literal meaning? The reason is as follows: The concept of Resurrection, namely, that the soul will return to the body after death, is expressed by Daniel[3] in such a manner that it cannot be interpreted other than literally: 'Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awaken, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting contempt.' Daniel was likewise told by the angel,[4] 'Now go your way to the end and rest, and you shall arise to your destiny at the end of days.'"

The Talmud[5] teaches that those who deny Resurrection will have no share in the World to Come, and Rambam in Mishneh Torah[6] rules that this teaching has the authority of Halachah.




Notes:

1) This is the 13th and last of Rambam's Principles of Faith, in the paraphrased form that many Siddurim append to the morning prayers. (In their original form, the Principles appear in the Rambam's introduction to his Commentary on the Mishnah of Sanhedrin, ch. 10.) See also Maimonides' Principles by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan (N.C.S.Y.).

2) Maamar Techiyas HaMeisim, (also known as Iggeres Techiyas HaMeisim - Letter on the Resurrection), beginning of ch. 4.

3) Daniel 12:2.

4) Ibid., v. 13.

5) Sanhedrin 90a.

6) Hilchos Teshuvah 3:6.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14