Author Topic: Shas and Yahadut HaTorah again betray the land of Israel (new video)  (Read 315 times)

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Online Chaim Ben Pesach

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These two hopelessly evil parties recently stated that they would be willing to destroy the Jewish communities of Judea and Samaria in exchange for joining the new government coalition to get more taxpayer subsidies for their corrupt institutions. In other words, these two "religious" parties will support national suicide in exchange for government bribes.

Help us expose them with this important Hebrew video. Please like, favorite, comment, share and mirror on both Youtube and Facebook. To get to the Youtube page to promote the video, click on "YouTube" on the bottom of the video.



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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Shas and Yahadut HaTorah again betray the land of Israel (new video)
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2013, 12:27:53 PM »
These shakedown artists are the Al Sharptons of Israel. May they be inflicted with pancreatic cancer.

Online Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: Shas and Yahadut HaTorah again betray the land of Israel (new video)
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2013, 12:33:53 PM »
These shakedown artists are the Al Sharptons of Israel. May they be inflicted with pancreatic cancer.

בס''ד

There are some people who support these parties who are just plain stupid. A generalized curse like that goes too far. I know you have the best of intentions but as we have said many times, we have to be careful before we curse people.

Offline AmYisraelChai

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Re: Shas and Yahadut HaTorah again betray the land of Israel (new video)
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2013, 01:50:57 PM »
The entire Hashkafa of the Kahanists is off. Responding to anti-Semitism with equal and opposite violence is against the Torah and, particularly while we are in Golus, a losing battle, and only makes things worse by provoking further anti-Semitism. The Torah’s directive is for us to attempt peace with our non-Jewish antagonists, and only when faced with an actual kill-or-be-killed situation is violence justified. You can find this in many places. The simplest would probably be Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s Ikvesa D’Meshichah, printed in the back of his “Kovetz Maamarim.” It is available in English as a pamphlet titled “Epoch of the Messiah”. 

The idea of using muscle to combat anti-Semitism or, as these people used to say, “for every Jew a .22”, is not new. Sixty years ago Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT”L was interviewed while in Vilna for a meeting of the Vaad haYeshivos by a writer for Dos Yiddishe Togblatt. A translation of the interview was edited by Rabbi Yehoshua Leiman of Brooklyn and printed in The Jewish Press July 14, ’89. The following is a quote from there:

“Togblatt: What should be our position regarding the Jewish anti-terror movement that uses terror against Arab terror?
Rav Wasserman: They must be regarded as Rodfim (endangerers) of Jewry. We are forbidden to use such methods.”

Our general position in Golus is to avoid and even run from confrontation with the Goyim, who by heavenly decree have the upper hand during this time period, as much as possible. We are even sworn, while in Golus not to revolt against the gentile nations (Kesuvos 111a). If we violate this oath, the punishment is that G-d will “allow our flesh [to be hunted] like deer in the fields.” Meforshim say that this is the most terrible punishment in the entire Torah.

But you don’t even need any of this to dissuade your friend from joining the JTF. Check out their website – www.jtf.org. They claim to be Kahanists but they are miles from Kahane. Their agenda is not merely Jew vs. Non-Jew; their agenda is White vs. Black. Apparently there’s not enough money to be gotten from militant Jews so they have extended their appeal to the extreme anti-black racists in America as well, claiming to be fighting their battle. Here’s a quote:
“White America senses that something terrible is happening to this country. Instead of lulling people into a false and suicidal sense of calm, the Republican Party should be sounding the alarm. . .
If JTF were on national television in the U.S. and Israel, imagine how the world would change for the better . . . In the United States, the sleeping giant of white America would finally be aroused. Our huge audience would inspire a genuine right-wing movement in this country, making it impossible for traitor frauds like George W. Bush and the Nazi Pat Buchanan to pass themselves off as "conservatives." We would save the U.S. from the abyss of Third World oblivion. And we would thwart the multinational corporate conspiracy to destroy U.S. sovereignty by creating One World Government.
For our glorious dream to come true, JTF needs millions of dollars to pay for time on national television. If you are a wealthy Jew or righteous Gentile with the needed millions of dollars, please contact us immediately so that we can make the necessary arrangements.”

Here’s more:

“Our struggle is to spearhead the momentous movement to save America and Israel. Our movement is the only hope for saving the Jewish homeland. And our movement is the only hope for inspiring righteous Gentiles to do what must be done to save America from the clutches of the hateful Third World hordes who seek the destruction of this once great nation.
Which is why every Jew and righteous Gentile should make out an especially generous check to "JTF" immediately and send it out right away.”

Save America? First they say Israel – and only Israel - is the Jewish homeland and that every Jew HAS to live there, and that America is for gentiles only. Then they want to save America from the blacks. Is this their agenda?

They’re very much into the “righteous gentiles.” They correctly point out that Judaism does not demand gentiles convert, but their example of a “righteous gentile” is “Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, who does not believe in the Jewish religion but who does have mercy upon the victims of injustice”. These people are idol-worshippers who believe in a god who impregnates married women and has children. These are NOT chasidei umos ha’olam.

This whole thing is a moneymaking attempt to attract the extreme right wing anti-black Americans.

This is not even Kahanism. I don’t see how any Jew can take this seriously.

When we fight it is only to save Jewish lives, not to get or defend land. We do not put Jewish lives at risk for any land. Unfortunately, there are many lives in danger today in Eretz Yisroel, and we cannot allow them to be wiped out c"v.

The mainstream leadership of Orthodox Jewry, which includes everyone from the Brisker Rav to the Chazon Ish to Rav S.R.Hirsh to Lubavtich were against the creation of a sovereign Jewish state in Eretz Yisroel (only the Zionists wanted it) because it violated either this or another of the Oaths that I was referring to above. The other Oath says, in short, that the Jews will not forcefully possess Eretz Yisroel during Golus.

The objection to Zionism in the Torah world is, contrary to popular belief, not due to the irreligiosity of the Zionists - although that was a small part of it as well - but rather to the violation of these Oaths.
However, that was regarding the question of whether to create a sovereign state in Eretz Yisroel. Ex post facto, after it was made, the question becomes what to do about it and how to relate to it. Now that it is here should we try to make it as religious and useful as possible or would participation in its political process make us accessories after the fact? That is a debate among Torah authorities.
But all of the above agree that risking Jewish lives is only justified to save Jewish lives, not to save land.

The following are the words of Rav Shimon Schwab ZT"L:

In the Chanukah "al hanisim" it describes our miraculous victory in the war, and continues, "And afterwards, Your children went to restore your House [the Bais HaMikdosh] etc."

The words "and afterwards" are awkward and unnecessary. It could have just said "we won the war and fixed Your house..."

Said Rav Schwab ZT"L, the reason for these extra words is to make sure we understand what we were - and were not - fighting for.

Nobody should think that the war against the Greeks had anything to do with the fact that they took over control of the Bais HaMikdash. We would rather them have the Bais HaMikdash forever and make Tameh all the oil rather than risk Jewish blood to wage war.

Rather, the war was for one reason only: "The Greeks decreed ... to make them forsake the Torah and to make them violate Your laws".

When someone makes us violate the Torah we risk our lives to stop them. We wage war. But not for land.

Therefore, it is saying that only after we won the war, after Hashem have over "many into the hands of few, strong into the hands of the weak" etc. Only after the war was over and we won, only then - "afterwards" - we went to fix the Bais HaMikdosh. But if we would have had to fight and risk lives to get the Bais HaMikdosh back, we never would have done so.

Giving the jews a "homeland" did not save any lives, even if doing so would not have been against the Torah. In fact, just one day after the State of Israel was declared, the Arab nations attacked, annihilating one out of every 100 Jews living in Israel at the time. There are wars and terrorism in Israel like everywhere in the world, and Jews are killed there, unfortunately, like everywhere else they have been.

On the contrary, the Gemora says that the fact that Jews are spread all over the world makes it safer for them, since when they are clustered in one Medinah - like they were in the days of Achashverosh - it is easy for an enemy to destroy so many of them together.

Furthermore, the Maharal writes that violating these oaths are "yehoreg v'al yaavor" -- better to die than violate them. If all the non-jewish nations would try to force us through threat of death and torture to take back Eretz Yisroel during Golus, we should rather submit to death, he says.

During "shas hashmad" (when the Goyim want to force us to violate the Torah) we must give our lives rather then give in. Outside the context of a religious war - such as when someone is sick and needs to go to the hospital on Shabbos - we violate the Torah rather to save the life.

The 3 Oaths are accepted by all factions of Jewry (except of course the Zionists and non-religious). They are applied by Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT"L in his Kovetz Maamarim (Ikvesa D'Meshichah) aganst the Jewish militants and Zionists, quoted numerous times by Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh ZT"L in Chorev in the same context, by the Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab) in a famous letter (printed in Daas HaRabbonim - Ohr Layeshorim p.57) against Zionism.

There are countless more sources, but I wanted to give as broad a range as possible. So here we have the Litvaks, the Yekkes, Satmar and Lubavitch.

Unfortunately, because of political reasons, the Torah literature surrounding these Oaths are avoided in religious Zionist institutions.

Ther is no oath that prohibits living in Eretz Yisroel. The only prohibition is a national take over of the land. Nobody ever said you can't live in Eretz Yisroel. Even the most staunch anti-Zionists, the Neturei Karta, lived in Eretz Yisroel.

The Maharal says "Even if the [Goyim] want to kill the Jews with hard torturous [death], they should not leave [the Golus] and they should not give in to this"

In other words, even if the Goyim demand that we must take over Eretz Yisroel or lese they will kill us, we should rather allow ourselves to be killed.

The idea that our Oaths are contingent on those of the Goyim is taught in Zionist institutions for political reasons but is not true. The Midrash Rabbah (Shir HaShirim) says that the Bnie Efraim were all annihilated in the desert for violating the Oaths and leaving Egypt early, even though Egypt certainly persecuted the Jews overmuch.

The idea doesn't work because the prohibition of the Jews to rebel against the nations or to take Eretz Yisroel were NOT for the benefit of the Goyim but for the benefit of the Jews -- it allows the Golus to finish its course as oppsoed to us "jumping the gun" and terminating it before it has fulfilled its purpose. So if the Goyim violated their oath - which of course they did - us violating ours would not be hurting the Goyim but hurting us.

The Golus happened in the year 70. That means any Rishonim or Acronim after approximately the Rif that brings the Oaths l'halachah shows that they do not believe they have expired. The Rambam applies them in his letters, and the Megilas Esther in Sefer HaMitzvos says that the reason the Rambam left out the Mitzvah to live in Erezt Yisroel nowadays is because although it is permitted to live there, it is no longer a Mitzvah, since obligating everyone to live there would cause a violation of the Oaths. They are also applied by countless other Torah authorities throughout the generations, including the Rivash and Rashbash.

This is not even a fair issue. The greatest of the greatest of our Gedolim have already declared the state to be against the Oaths. I am talking about Gedolim of 100 years ago. A nice rabbi even if he is a talmid chacham is not likely to "disprove" the collective Torah knowledge of the Torah giants. It is only the Mizrachi that wanted a state, and they have not yet even begun to find ways to answer the Halachic problems of the Oaths and other issues as well.

The Oaths are brought donw l'halachah, including but not limited to: Responsa Rivash #110, Responsa Rashbash #2, Megilas Esther on Sefer HaMitzvos of Rambam (#4 - Regarding whay the Rambam does not count the Mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel in his list of Mitzvos), Ramban (Maamar HaGeulah #1 regarding why all Jews outside of Bavel - the majority of Jews at the time - did not go to Eretz Yisroel at Coresh's call), Rambam (Igeres Taimon - warning peple not to violate the Oaths or else face grave danger), Maharal (Netzach Yisroel 24) writes that even if the Goyim try to force us to take Eretz Yisroel for ourselves during Golus, we must allow ourselves to be killed rather than take violate the Oaths.

And the Bnei Efraim, Chazal say, were killed for violating the Oaths. If this heter didnt help them theres no reason to think it will help us.

And as for it nto being in Mishna Torah, the Rambam himself wasnt impressed with this argument, since in Igeres Taomin he warns ppl not to violate the Oaths or else suffer grave danger. So I guess the Rambam didnt agree with your explanation of the Rambam.

Not only Germany violated their Oath but Egypt did too, yet when the Bnei Efraim ran away from there they were all killed in the desert for violating the Oaths. The Oaths are not reciprocal. Our Oath not to rebel against the nations was not made to protect the nations it was made to protect us, so if the nations one of the oaths, thats all the more reason to make sure we maintain the rest.

Seeing the "hand of G-d" means nothing when the Halachah disagrees. The Bnei Efraim surely saw the hand of G-d in their escaping from Egypt, which of course was an open miracle - as we know, "Mitzrayim" begins with an open "mem" and ends with a clsoed one to show that nobody ever got out. Ever.

Until our Shevet Efriam. A clear miracle. The hand of G-d was surely seen! Yet it was forbidden and they were killed.

Why should we think we're better than Bnei Efriam?

Jewish pride has to come through the Jewish religion, not tribal militancy, which is the type of pride the JDL instills. Jewish pride means we are holy, children of Hashem, and it comes hand in hand with Jewish humility when we contemplate the great responsibility that comes with that priviledge. Jewish pride leads to committment to Torah and Mitzvos.

Spending so much of your time energy and life preparing to know how to shoot someone in case of another holocaust is not our job in this world. Our job is to become Torah scholars and do Mitzvos. And if there will be another holocaust c"v, your knowing how to shoot will not save lives nearly as much as the committment of Klall Yisroel to Hashem's Torah.

The JDL is more than a Karate class. It is a philosophy of what Jews need in this world to survive against the Goyim. Their philosophy is wrong and against the Torah as explained above.

Nationalism is not only not a religious duty, it is simply Avodah Zorah. "Nationalism" in this context is a euphemism for Zionism, or the idea that Jews need to be a "nation like all nations" - with their own land, language, etc.

This is idolatry. The Jews are different than all other nations. Other nations are nations because of common land, food, culture, language etc. Jews are a nation because of the Torah. That is ALL that makes us Jews. The idea that it enhances our status as a nation if we have a land or an army like everyone else is projecting non-Jewish national criteria and using it to replace the Torah Nation's criteria.

For more on this topic, see Rav Elchonon Wasserman's Ikvesa D'Meshichah. He discusses this at length.

It also does not matter if the nationalism is "religious" or not. As Reb Elchonon puts it: "Nationalism is avodah zorah. Religious nationalism is avodah zarah mixed with religion."

And no, the Rashi about R. Yitzchok is NOT, chas v'sholom, nationalistic. All it says is that Hashem owns the world and that when He decides to give Eretz Yisroel to us, we will have a right to take it.

It does NOT mean that we can just go into Eretz Yisroel and take the land from whoever is in there. That is forbidden and punishable by death, as the Gemora says in Kesuvos 111a.

Avrohom Avinu, who Hashem promised the land, had to buy the M'aras Hamachpelah from Efron. He did not come with claims of ownership. It says nowhere that Jews own Eretz Yisroel in Golus. On the contrary, we are allowed to live there, maybe even commanded to, according to some Rishonim, but not allowed to own it as a State. As we say in Davening "Because of our sins we were exiled from our land."

Eretz Yisroel was given to us on the condition we fulfill the Torah. It was the same Hashem Who promised it to us that took it away because we did not fulfill that condiiton.

And He said NOT to dare take it until we do fulfill it. That will happen when Moshiach comes.

PS - Ikvesa D'Meshichah will provide you with all you need to know about not being militant, as well.

You're right - Bar Kochba's "excuse" was that he believed Moshiach had come. When that happens, Golus is over and we take Eretz Yisroel.

But Chazal do indeed say that the generation of Bar Kochba were punished with death and destruction because they violated the Oaths. That, even though they believed it wasn't a problem. That is how severe the Oaths are.

Get a hold of Rav Elchonon Wasserman's Kovetz Maamarim, and read the chapter called Ikvesa D'Meshichah. He explains why the tactics that Kahane espoused - which by the way, are nothing new: the idea of exporting the Arabs, and fighting terror with terror etc. were espoused way way before Kahane, in the early days of Zionism; his ideas are so totally unoriginal - are not only against the Torah, but cause Klal Yisroel to be in danger, and Jews to c"v die. See especially pages 310-313 in the new print. Basically it goes like this:

When someone attacks an individual Jew, he is instructed to fight back. "When someone rises to kill you, rise up and kill them first." But when we are dealing with the survival of Klall Yisroel as a whole, the rules change. This is because, using plain, nationalistic methods of survival work for other nations but do not work to maintain the Am Yisroel. This is because, while Esav was blessed with "He shall live by his sword", Klall Yisroel's Brochoh was that they should live by the Torah.

This means that the sword is the method the nations use for survival, but it does not work for us.

What does work for us, is to avoid confrontation with the nations of the world as much as possible. We are commanded by Chazal in numerous places (Brachos 7b, Yalkut Shimoni Shemos 168, Devorim Rabbah 1) not to dare engage the Goyim in a national confrontation. If we do, we will lose. Because we are playing on their turf - "the sword". What we are told to do in order to survive, is to avoid confrontation as much as possible, run away, whether the storm, and turn to Torah and Mitzvos.

The Gemora (Taanis 10b) says we should not "attract the attention" of the nations. Says Rav Elchonon: "This is a warning not to give the nations any opportunity to focus their attention on us and to always be talking about us. To the extent that the nations refrain from thinking about us and talking about us, to that extent we will be OK.."

In short, Kahane's methods of directly confronting the nations with force will fail because the nations are stronger than us, physically. The result will be - and has been - only to further instigate greater anti-semitism and more deaths of Jews. The right thing to do according to Chazal is to "lay low" - just the opposite of what Kahane wanted.

Throughout history this is how Klall Yisroel has behaved. And although we have been persecuted and murdered for thousands of years, please note that Klall Yisroel is the only single one of the ancient nations that has survived until today. The "shelf life" for even the most glorious, powerful nations is much shorter than the shelf life of the Am Yisroel. The methods that Chazal revealed to us - the methods that we have used - have been successful beyond any reasonable expectations, or any natural life span. We have been miraculously successful in our survival using the methods of Chazal. And that, despite our being constantly persecuted, and without a homeland for thousands of years.

That is the only thing that allowed us to survive throughout golus - "laying low". And not confronting the nations. Not living "by the sword".

When the Goyim threatened us with death, we always turned to the Torah. When they threatened our religion, not our lives, like by making a SHmad, then, and only then, did we put our lives on the line and go to war against impossible odds.

We all know thats the diff between Purim and Chanukah. On Chanukah, they didnt want to kill any Jews. They just attacked "Hashem" - wanted to stop Torah and Mitzvos. So we fought. But on Purim they wanted to kill us - so we didnt make a war; we prayed.

In an interview that Rav Elchonon ZTL had with a Yiddish newspaper before the war, he said that those who resort to the methods of "answering violence with violence" are considered Rodfim of Klall Yisroel - peopel who put Jewish lives in danger.  The Halachic status of such people is that you are allowed to kill them, and by killing them, it is considered as if you saved the Jewish lives that would have been lost because of their irresponsible actions.

Regarding a homeland, the torah prohibits us to have a homeland in Eretz Yisroel before MOshiach comes. The punishment, it says, is that if we do take Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, Hashem will allow the Jews to be "hunted down and butchered like animals in the field." Rachmana Litzlan.

One of the reasons for not making a Jewish State in Israel, aside form the Torahs prohibition, was the obvious danger to Jewish lives due to the Arab resistance. The creation of the State of Israel and the ensuing middle east controversy caused so much anti-semitism, it is worse than it was before. Rav Shach ZTL writes this in his letters, and even before the founding of the State, the Gedolim were screaming that this would happen. Wrote Rav Mishoel Ber Weismandel ZTL, the great hero of the holocaust:

"These Zionists...with their offensive militancy, fanned the fires of anti-semitism in Europe, and succeeded in forging a bond of Jew hatred between Nazi Germany and the surrounding countries.

"Thee are the 'statemen' who organized the irresponsible boycott against Germany in 1933. This boycott hurt Germany like a fly attacking an elephant - but it borught calamity on the Jews of Europe. At a time when America and England were at peace with the mad dog Hitler, the Zionists forsook the only plausable method of political amenability; and ... incensec the leader of germany into a frenzy. And then, after the bitterst episode in Jewish history, thse ZIonists lured the broken refugees in the DP camps to remain in humgher and deprivation, nd refuse to relocate to any place except Palestine; only for the purpose of building their state.
"The ZIonists have incited and continue to incite an embittered Jewish youth to futile wars against world powers like ENgland, and against hundreds of millions of Arabs.

"And these same Zionist "statesmen" heedlessly push the world to the brink of another total war - revolving entirely around the Holy Land.

"...the rising anti-Seimitism in the Western World is the product of their "statesmanship"".

Rav Shach ZT"L also writes how the controversy caused by the State of Israel is likely to cause the next world war, rachmana latzlan.

The solution? I dont htink there is any. Not any more. The Zionists threw a hand grenade into a powder keg of anti-semitism with their actions. Now, the world hated us more and more. Even the Satmar Rebbe ZTL, one of the staunchest opponents of Zionism in our time, writes in several places, that even though it is clear that the State of Isael must be abolished, due to the problems it causes as well as its Halachic unacceptability, but we cannot give back it to the Arabs, since doing so would be a big Sakanah to the Jews living there. Rather, he says, the only solution is to pray for Moshiach to come and let him abolish the State.

I have not heard of any Tzadik come up with any solution to this problem. The Gedolim tried to prevent it - as in the writing of Rav Mishoel Ber and Rav Elchonon ZTL - but the Zionists ignored their pleas and put us in this position anyway. Once the fire is burning, I havent heard anyone suggest a way to put it out.

Except to pray to Hashem and to return to the Torah.

Of course hishtadlus is needed, but the question is, what path to take for hishtadlus? Both advance and retreat are Hishtadlus, and both are appropriate in their proper times.

Chazal tell us that for Klall Yisroel, the histadlus that will be successful for us, is never, ever, to assert ourselves to or to confront the nations of the world. That will be our salvation.

We must never even demand things of the nations - we can only request, Rav Elchonon says. We cannot protest against them, we canot demand they give us anything, we cannot write newspaper articles about how wrong they are (between ourselves, yes, we can and should; but to the world, in public, we cannot).

That is not relying on a miracle, that is practical advice from Chazal based on the factual dynamics in the relationship between the Jewish Nation and the Goyish Nations. The psychology of the Goyim, the Jews, and all other factors were considered by G-d and this is the advice - and orders that he gave us.

If we lay low, submit to the nations, we will live. Else, c"v...

This is how Klall Yisroel survived all these years. This is the onyl way we can survive in the future.

The victories of the IDF were battles; the war with the ARabs is not over. Far from it. The IDF has not conquered their enemies. On the contrary, more people have been killed by the enemy - Arabs - in Israel since the inception of the State than everywhere else in the world put togethr where we have no army. And that, despite the fact that more Jews always lived - and still do - outside EY.

And even the "victories" are questionable. Israel "won" the war of '48. But 6,000 Jews were killed in it. that means, if oyu add up all the ppl killed in the WTC tragedy, double that, and make believe they were all Jews - that still doesnt equal the amount of Jews killed in a "victory".

Depends what you consider victory. If you want land, and are willign to give Jewish blood, which is of course against everythgin the Torah teaches - a Jewish life is worth more than all the land, including eretz Yisroel and the Bais HaMikdahs itself - then its a victory, I suppose.

On purim, they only fought AFTER the enemy was neutralized. When the Gezeirah was over, and the Jews had the support of the government, they "mopped up" their enemies. they did NOT fight Achashveirosh to nullify the decree.

Even today, it is clear that the incendiary acts of the Kahanists have caused Jewish blood to spill. Including that of Kahane himslef, and his son and daughter in law. His way did not work for him. It doesnt work for anyone.

The insane act of the Kachnik Tatiana Soskin caused an Arab uprising that killed and maimed may Jews. Sharon's incendiary remarks on the Har Habayis triggered suicide bombers. CHaim Weissman's insane declaration on the radio that the Jews are declaring war on Hitler damaged all hopes of nagotiating with that animal and caused the deaths of unkown numbers of jews. The very declaration that the Jews are taking over Israel caused the Arab hatred for the Jews, including the Chevron massacre, and the Mufti's unlikely alliance with Hitler. I could go on and on.

No, its not "OK" if 6,000,000 Jews are killed.  But we dont have an option of eliminating anti-semitism, we only have the option of minimizing casualties. And that means laying low, Chazal say.

Rav Yochana ben Zakai was willign to give up Jerusalem to the Romans rather than fight, in order to save Jewish lives. The militants, with the same argumnets as you, decided to fight. If not for them, Jerusalem would not have been destroyed.

The same applies for the first destruction.

Throughout history, those who wanted to fight were the ones who cause untold death and suffering for Jews. Like the Baryonim. And like Kahane.

Our only hope is to listen to Chazal and the Gedolei Yisroel who tell us that militancy is nto the way to survival. Peaceful political requests to the nations, and finding favor in their eyes works for us.

Fighting works for the Goyim.

If we would fight, we would end up like the Goyish nations that came into existence in the days we did.

Dead. Obliterated. Gone.

Only because we did not fight in Golus and submitted to the reality of being a sheep among 70 wolves did we outlive all of them.

Kahane and those like him would change that. he would make us into a Goyishe "becharvo sichye" nation who will c"v perish like all such nations.

If it aint broken dont fix it.

Judiasm aint broken. Weve done better than anyone else, survival-wise. Dont change that. The only other option is to have more Jews killed, not less. That was Kahane's choice.

Thank G-d it is not Klall Yisroel's.

Its very very poshut. It says nowhere that the reason Rabi Yochanan ben Zakai was worried on hsi deathbed was because he wanted to give away yerushalayim. In fact, that decision of his is used dozens of times in the Rishonim and Achronim as a halachah l'maaseh example of how we are to act when dealing with the danger form the Goyim.

Rabi Akiva did not say Rav Yochana ben Zakai was wrong for wanting to give away Yerushalayim, as oppsoedto fighting for it. Rabi AKiva said that RYB"Z had an opporutnity to avoid a war altogetehr by askign the Romans to go home, as per his one wish granted to him by Aspasyonus. But not a single opinion - of Rabi AKiva or anyone else - says that chas v'sholom Rav Yochana ben Zakai should have fought for Jerusalem.

There is no quesiton that all the land in the world - including Yerushalayim and the Bais Hamikdosh itself - it not worth a single Jewish life. The idea that Jewish lives are expendable in order to own land is baseless and against the Torah.

Moshiach exists in many stages. The Rambam writes for instance that Moshiach will have to make all Jews do Teshuva, which will be a sign that he is in reality Moshiach. Once we know that, we follow him to the Geulah.

SO Moshiach does things in preparation for the Geulah as well as the Geulah itself. I imagine thats why, in DIvrei Yoel, the Satmar Rebbe writes that we have to wait for "Eliyahu and Moshiach" to terminate Israel, since Eliyahu's functioning is preparation for the Geulah

So he is saying that, before the Geulah happens, Israel will have to be abloished, and the only way he can think of that happening now without endangering Jews is for Eliyahu and Moshiach to do it before the redemption.

Thsoe who kileld the Kahanes werent targeting any Jews - they were targeting the Kahanes specifically.

"G-d's annointed"? I don't think so.

The Netziv never said anythign about chas vsholom creating a Jewish State in EY. He was in favor of colonizing Eretz Yisroel, which was then under Turkish authority. The Netziv was niftar before Herzl even dreamed up the idea of a Jewish State.

Zionists like to present anyone who loves Eretz Yisroel as Zionist, thereby hijacking our Torah sages to further their own agenda, which was making a Jewish State. Its a common Zionist propaganda tactic to confuse the issue of the holiness of Eretz Yisroel and the zechus (and according to some even a Mitzvah) of living there, with Statehood. The first is a Torah concept, the second is Zionism.

Haba lhargechah surely does nto apply here.  Kahane lied about this to his people very often. He would site the CHevron massacre, for instance, as "proof" that the Arabs want to kill Jews regardless of the State of Israel, since there was no State of Israel in 1939, when the massacre took place.

But of course thats a lie - Zionism wpredated the State of Israel. The Balfour declaration happened in 1917, the ZIonist COngress in 1897. The Zionists were already fighting violently with the ARabs and the English, way before the State was created. And it was the Zionists that instigated the Chevron massacre (nnot that that alleviates any responsibility on the part of the murderers) with their anatagonizing the Arabs with threats to take over the Kosel grounds, as well as the entire land.


Kahane knew that.

Kahane's way is against the Torah, as explained above. And that derech didnt work for Kahane or his son. We dont want what happend to them to happen to us.

The "war" in Persia was not against the oaths because we were not fighting any governments, but acting with full support of the Persian government, according to their decree. We were not Jews rebelling against naitons, but favored citizens rebelling mopping up conspirators.

Jews are allowed to be in foreign governments. There is no Oath agaisnt that.

The Oaths are based on a Posuk in Shir Hashirim, as the Gemora states.

The problem with Zionism is NOT that the Zionists were our enemies - although thats true too. The problem with Zionism is NOT that Erezt Yisroel itself is worthless withotu the Bais Hamikdash - nobody ever said that. The problem with Zionism is that nowadays while we are still in Golus, when no Navi told us the time to enter EY has arrived - under the current circumstances for us to take EY, is against the Torah. What does that have to do with Dayenu? Then, it was the right time - Hashem Himself said so. He led us in. Today is not the right time - and so it is a terrible aveirah. All the other problems, such as the anti-semtism and deaths caused by having the State, are secondary to, and may be a result of, that.

If anything, Jabotinsky should be suffixed with "shem rishayim yirkav." ("may the name of the wicked rot")

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Re: Shas and Yahadut HaTorah again betray the land of Israel (new video)
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2013, 02:09:32 PM »
This KAPO above is trying to hide his cowardice behind flawed religious theories.

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Re: Shas and Yahadut HaTorah again betray the land of Israel (new video)
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2013, 02:15:09 PM »
Must be a member of the Neuturei karta.Your copy and paste job is terrible you didn't even realize you linked to this group.
Quote
But you don’t even need any of this to dissuade your friend from joining the JTF. Check out their website – www.jtf.org. They claim to be Kahanists but they are miles from Kahane. Their agenda is not merely Jew vs. Non-Jew; their agenda is White vs. Black. Apparently there’s not enough money to be gotten from militant Jews so they have extended their appeal to the extreme anti-black racists in America as well, claiming to be fighting their battle. Here’s a quote:
“White America senses that something terrible is happening to this country. Instead of lulling people into a false and suicidal sense of calm, the Republican Party should be sounding the alarm. .
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Re: Shas and Yahadut HaTorah again betray the land of Israel (new video)
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2013, 05:56:12 PM »
The entire Hashkafa of the Kahanists is off. Responding to anti-Semitism with equal and opposite violence is against the Torah and, particularly while we are in Golus, a losing battle, and only makes things worse by provoking further anti-Semitism. The Torah’s directive is for us to attempt peace with our non-Jewish antagonists, and only when faced with an actual kill-or-be-killed situation is violence justified. You can find this in many places. The simplest would probably be Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s Ikvesa D’Meshichah, printed in the back of his “Kovetz Maamarim.” It is available in English as a pamphlet titled “Epoch of the Messiah”. 

The idea of using muscle to combat anti-Semitism or, as these people used to say, “for every Jew a .22”, is not new. Sixty years ago Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT”L was interviewed while in Vilna for a meeting of the Vaad haYeshivos by a writer for Dos Yiddishe Togblatt. A translation of the interview was edited by Rabbi Yehoshua Leiman of Brooklyn and printed in The Jewish Press July 14, ’89. The following is a quote from there:

“Togblatt: What should be our position regarding the Jewish anti-terror movement that uses terror against Arab terror?
Rav Wasserman: They must be regarded as Rodfim (endangerers) of Jewry. We are forbidden to use such methods.”

Our general position in Golus is to avoid and even run from confrontation with the Goyim, who by heavenly decree have the upper hand during this time period, as much as possible. We are even sworn, while in Golus not to revolt against the gentile nations (Kesuvos 111a). If we violate this oath, the punishment is that G-d will “allow our flesh [to be hunted] like deer in the fields.” Meforshim say that this is the most terrible punishment in the entire Torah.

But you don’t even need any of this to dissuade your friend from joining the JTF. Check out their website – www.jtf.org. They claim to be Kahanists but they are miles from Kahane. Their agenda is not merely Jew vs. Non-Jew; their agenda is White vs. Black. Apparently there’s not enough money to be gotten from militant Jews so they have extended their appeal to the extreme anti-black racists in America as well, claiming to be fighting their battle. Here’s a quote:
“White America senses that something terrible is happening to this country. Instead of lulling people into a false and suicidal sense of calm, the Republican Party should be sounding the alarm. . .
If JTF were on national television in the U.S. and Israel, imagine how the world would change for the better . . . In the United States, the sleeping giant of white America would finally be aroused. Our huge audience would inspire a genuine right-wing movement in this country, making it impossible for traitor frauds like George W. Bush and the Nazi Pat Buchanan to pass themselves off as "conservatives." We would save the U.S. from the abyss of Third World oblivion. And we would thwart the multinational corporate conspiracy to destroy U.S. sovereignty by creating One World Government.
For our glorious dream to come true, JTF needs millions of dollars to pay for time on national television. If you are a wealthy Jew or righteous Gentile with the needed millions of dollars, please contact us immediately so that we can make the necessary arrangements.”

Here’s more:

“Our struggle is to spearhead the momentous movement to save America and Israel. Our movement is the only hope for saving the Jewish homeland. And our movement is the only hope for inspiring righteous Gentiles to do what must be done to save America from the clutches of the hateful Third World hordes who seek the destruction of this once great nation.
Which is why every Jew and righteous Gentile should make out an especially generous check to "JTF" immediately and send it out right away.”

Save America? First they say Israel – and only Israel - is the Jewish homeland and that every Jew HAS to live there, and that America is for gentiles only. Then they want to save America from the blacks. Is this their agenda?

They’re very much into the “righteous gentiles.” They correctly point out that Judaism does not demand gentiles convert, but their example of a “righteous gentile” is “Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, who does not believe in the Jewish religion but who does have mercy upon the victims of injustice”. These people are idol-worshippers who believe in a god who impregnates married women and has children. These are NOT chasidei umos ha’olam.

This whole thing is a moneymaking attempt to attract the extreme right wing anti-black Americans.

This is not even Kahanism. I don’t see how any Jew can take this seriously.

When we fight it is only to save Jewish lives, not to get or defend land. We do not put Jewish lives at risk for any land. Unfortunately, there are many lives in danger today in Eretz Yisroel, and we cannot allow them to be wiped out c"v.

The mainstream leadership of Orthodox Jewry, which includes everyone from the Brisker Rav to the Chazon Ish to Rav S.R.Hirsh to Lubavtich were against the creation of a sovereign Jewish state in Eretz Yisroel (only the Zionists wanted it) because it violated either this or another of the Oaths that I was referring to above. The other Oath says, in short, that the Jews will not forcefully possess Eretz Yisroel during Golus.

The objection to Zionism in the Torah world is, contrary to popular belief, not due to the irreligiosity of the Zionists - although that was a small part of it as well - but rather to the violation of these Oaths.
However, that was regarding the question of whether to create a sovereign state in Eretz Yisroel. Ex post facto, after it was made, the question becomes what to do about it and how to relate to it. Now that it is here should we try to make it as religious and useful as possible or would participation in its political process make us accessories after the fact? That is a debate among Torah authorities.
But all of the above agree that risking Jewish lives is only justified to save Jewish lives, not to save land.

The following are the words of Rav Shimon Schwab ZT"L:

In the Chanukah "al hanisim" it describes our miraculous victory in the war, and continues, "And afterwards, Your children went to restore your House [the Bais HaMikdosh] etc."

The words "and afterwards" are awkward and unnecessary. It could have just said "we won the war and fixed Your house..."

Said Rav Schwab ZT"L, the reason for these extra words is to make sure we understand what we were - and were not - fighting for.

Nobody should think that the war against the Greeks had anything to do with the fact that they took over control of the Bais HaMikdash. We would rather them have the Bais HaMikdash forever and make Tameh all the oil rather than risk Jewish blood to wage war.

Rather, the war was for one reason only: "The Greeks decreed ... to make them forsake the Torah and to make them violate Your laws".

When someone makes us violate the Torah we risk our lives to stop them. We wage war. But not for land.

Therefore, it is saying that only after we won the war, after Hashem have over "many into the hands of few, strong into the hands of the weak" etc. Only after the war was over and we won, only then - "afterwards" - we went to fix the Bais HaMikdosh. But if we would have had to fight and risk lives to get the Bais HaMikdosh back, we never would have done so.

Giving the jews a "homeland" did not save any lives, even if doing so would not have been against the Torah. In fact, just one day after the State of Israel was declared, the Arab nations attacked, annihilating one out of every 100 Jews living in Israel at the time. There are wars and terrorism in Israel like everywhere in the world, and Jews are killed there, unfortunately, like everywhere else they have been.

On the contrary, the Gemora says that the fact that Jews are spread all over the world makes it safer for them, since when they are clustered in one Medinah - like they were in the days of Achashverosh - it is easy for an enemy to destroy so many of them together.

Furthermore, the Maharal writes that violating these oaths are "yehoreg v'al yaavor" -- better to die than violate them. If all the non-jewish nations would try to force us through threat of death and torture to take back Eretz Yisroel during Golus, we should rather submit to death, he says.

During "shas hashmad" (when the Goyim want to force us to violate the Torah) we must give our lives rather then give in. Outside the context of a religious war - such as when someone is sick and needs to go to the hospital on Shabbos - we violate the Torah rather to save the life.

The 3 Oaths are accepted by all factions of Jewry (except of course the Zionists and non-religious). They are applied by Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT"L in his Kovetz Maamarim (Ikvesa D'Meshichah) aganst the Jewish militants and Zionists, quoted numerous times by Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh ZT"L in Chorev in the same context, by the Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab) in a famous letter (printed in Daas HaRabbonim - Ohr Layeshorim p.57) against Zionism.

There are countless more sources, but I wanted to give as broad a range as possible. So here we have the Litvaks, the Yekkes, Satmar and Lubavitch.

Unfortunately, because of political reasons, the Torah literature surrounding these Oaths are avoided in religious Zionist institutions.

Ther is no oath that prohibits living in Eretz Yisroel. The only prohibition is a national take over of the land. Nobody ever said you can't live in Eretz Yisroel. Even the most staunch anti-Zionists, the Neturei Karta, lived in Eretz Yisroel.

The Maharal says "Even if the [Goyim] want to kill the Jews with hard torturous [death], they should not leave [the Golus] and they should not give in to this"

In other words, even if the Goyim demand that we must take over Eretz Yisroel or lese they will kill us, we should rather allow ourselves to be killed.

The idea that our Oaths are contingent on those of the Goyim is taught in Zionist institutions for political reasons but is not true. The Midrash Rabbah (Shir HaShirim) says that the Bnie Efraim were all annihilated in the desert for violating the Oaths and leaving Egypt early, even though Egypt certainly persecuted the Jews overmuch.

The idea doesn't work because the prohibition of the Jews to rebel against the nations or to take Eretz Yisroel were NOT for the benefit of the Goyim but for the benefit of the Jews -- it allows the Golus to finish its course as oppsoed to us "jumping the gun" and terminating it before it has fulfilled its purpose. So if the Goyim violated their oath - which of course they did - us violating ours would not be hurting the Goyim but hurting us.

The Golus happened in the year 70. That means any Rishonim or Acronim after approximately the Rif that brings the Oaths l'halachah shows that they do not believe they have expired. The Rambam applies them in his letters, and the Megilas Esther in Sefer HaMitzvos says that the reason the Rambam left out the Mitzvah to live in Erezt Yisroel nowadays is because although it is permitted to live there, it is no longer a Mitzvah, since obligating everyone to live there would cause a violation of the Oaths. They are also applied by countless other Torah authorities throughout the generations, including the Rivash and Rashbash.

This is not even a fair issue. The greatest of the greatest of our Gedolim have already declared the state to be against the Oaths. I am talking about Gedolim of 100 years ago. A nice rabbi even if he is a talmid chacham is not likely to "disprove" the collective Torah knowledge of the Torah giants. It is only the Mizrachi that wanted a state, and they have not yet even begun to find ways to answer the Halachic problems of the Oaths and other issues as well.

The Oaths are brought donw l'halachah, including but not limited to: Responsa Rivash #110, Responsa Rashbash #2, Megilas Esther on Sefer HaMitzvos of Rambam (#4 - Regarding whay the Rambam does not count the Mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel in his list of Mitzvos), Ramban (Maamar HaGeulah #1 regarding why all Jews outside of Bavel - the majority of Jews at the time - did not go to Eretz Yisroel at Coresh's call), Rambam (Igeres Taimon - warning peple not to violate the Oaths or else face grave danger), Maharal (Netzach Yisroel 24) writes that even if the Goyim try to force us to take Eretz Yisroel for ourselves during Golus, we must allow ourselves to be killed rather than take violate the Oaths.

And the Bnei Efraim, Chazal say, were killed for violating the Oaths. If this heter didnt help them theres no reason to think it will help us.

And as for it nto being in Mishna Torah, the Rambam himself wasnt impressed with this argument, since in Igeres Taomin he warns ppl not to violate the Oaths or else suffer grave danger. So I guess the Rambam didnt agree with your explanation of the Rambam.

Not only Germany violated their Oath but Egypt did too, yet when the Bnei Efraim ran away from there they were all killed in the desert for violating the Oaths. The Oaths are not reciprocal. Our Oath not to rebel against the nations was not made to protect the nations it was made to protect us, so if the nations one of the oaths, thats all the more reason to make sure we maintain the rest.

Seeing the "hand of G-d" means nothing when the Halachah disagrees. The Bnei Efraim surely saw the hand of G-d in their escaping from Egypt, which of course was an open miracle - as we know, "Mitzrayim" begins with an open "mem" and ends with a clsoed one to show that nobody ever got out. Ever.

Until our Shevet Efriam. A clear miracle. The hand of G-d was surely seen! Yet it was forbidden and they were killed.

Why should we think we're better than Bnei Efriam?

Jewish pride has to come through the Jewish religion, not tribal militancy, which is the type of pride the JDL instills. Jewish pride means we are holy, children of Hashem, and it comes hand in hand with Jewish humility when we contemplate the great responsibility that comes with that priviledge. Jewish pride leads to committment to Torah and Mitzvos.

Spending so much of your time energy and life preparing to know how to shoot someone in case of another holocaust is not our job in this world. Our job is to become Torah scholars and do Mitzvos. And if there will be another holocaust c"v, your knowing how to shoot will not save lives nearly as much as the committment of Klall Yisroel to Hashem's Torah.

The JDL is more than a Karate class. It is a philosophy of what Jews need in this world to survive against the Goyim. Their philosophy is wrong and against the Torah as explained above.

Nationalism is not only not a religious duty, it is simply Avodah Zorah. "Nationalism" in this context is a euphemism for Zionism, or the idea that Jews need to be a "nation like all nations" - with their own land, language, etc.

This is idolatry. The Jews are different than all other nations. Other nations are nations because of common land, food, culture, language etc. Jews are a nation because of the Torah. That is ALL that makes us Jews. The idea that it enhances our status as a nation if we have a land or an army like everyone else is projecting non-Jewish national criteria and using it to replace the Torah Nation's criteria.

For more on this topic, see Rav Elchonon Wasserman's Ikvesa D'Meshichah. He discusses this at length.

It also does not matter if the nationalism is "religious" or not. As Reb Elchonon puts it: "Nationalism is avodah zorah. Religious nationalism is avodah zarah mixed with religion."

And no, the Rashi about R. Yitzchok is NOT, chas v'sholom, nationalistic. All it says is that Hashem owns the world and that when He decides to give Eretz Yisroel to us, we will have a right to take it.

It does NOT mean that we can just go into Eretz Yisroel and take the land from whoever is in there. That is forbidden and punishable by death, as the Gemora says in Kesuvos 111a.

Avrohom Avinu, who Hashem promised the land, had to buy the M'aras Hamachpelah from Efron. He did not come with claims of ownership. It says nowhere that Jews own Eretz Yisroel in Golus. On the contrary, we are allowed to live there, maybe even commanded to, according to some Rishonim, but not allowed to own it as a State. As we say in Davening "Because of our sins we were exiled from our land."

Eretz Yisroel was given to us on the condition we fulfill the Torah. It was the same Hashem Who promised it to us that took it away because we did not fulfill that condiiton.

And He said NOT to dare take it until we do fulfill it. That will happen when Moshiach comes.

PS - Ikvesa D'Meshichah will provide you with all you need to know about not being militant, as well.

You're right - Bar Kochba's "excuse" was that he believed Moshiach had come. When that happens, Golus is over and we take Eretz Yisroel.

But Chazal do indeed say that the generation of Bar Kochba were punished with death and destruction because they violated the Oaths. That, even though they believed it wasn't a problem. That is how severe the Oaths are.

Get a hold of Rav Elchonon Wasserman's Kovetz Maamarim, and read the chapter called Ikvesa D'Meshichah. He explains why the tactics that Kahane espoused - which by the way, are nothing new: the idea of exporting the Arabs, and fighting terror with terror etc. were espoused way way before Kahane, in the early days of Zionism; his ideas are so totally unoriginal - are not only against the Torah, but cause Klal Yisroel to be in danger, and Jews to c"v die. See especially pages 310-313 in the new print. Basically it goes like this:

When someone attacks an individual Jew, he is instructed to fight back. "When someone rises to kill you, rise up and kill them first." But when we are dealing with the survival of Klall Yisroel as a whole, the rules change. This is because, using plain, nationalistic methods of survival work for other nations but do not work to maintain the Am Yisroel. This is because, while Esav was blessed with "He shall live by his sword", Klall Yisroel's Brochoh was that they should live by the Torah.

This means that the sword is the method the nations use for survival, but it does not work for us.

What does work for us, is to avoid confrontation with the nations of the world as much as possible. We are commanded by Chazal in numerous places (Brachos 7b, Yalkut Shimoni Shemos 168, Devorim Rabbah 1) not to dare engage the Goyim in a national confrontation. If we do, we will lose. Because we are playing on their turf - "the sword". What we are told to do in order to survive, is to avoid confrontation as much as possible, run away, whether the storm, and turn to Torah and Mitzvos.

The Gemora (Taanis 10b) says we should not "attract the attention" of the nations. Says Rav Elchonon: "This is a warning not to give the nations any opportunity to focus their attention on us and to always be talking about us. To the extent that the nations refrain from thinking about us and talking about us, to that extent we will be OK.."

In short, Kahane's methods of directly confronting the nations with force will fail because the nations are stronger than us, physically. The result will be - and has been - only to further instigate greater anti-semitism and more deaths of Jews. The right thing to do according to Chazal is to "lay low" - just the opposite of what Kahane wanted.

Throughout history this is how Klall Yisroel has behaved. And although we have been persecuted and murdered for thousands of years, please note that Klall Yisroel is the only single one of the ancient nations that has survived until today. The "shelf life" for even the most glorious, powerful nations is much shorter than the shelf life of the Am Yisroel. The methods that Chazal revealed to us - the methods that we have used - have been successful beyond any reasonable expectations, or any natural life span. We have been miraculously successful in our survival using the methods of Chazal. And that, despite our being constantly persecuted, and without a homeland for thousands of years.

That is the only thing that allowed us to survive throughout golus - "laying low". And not confronting the nations. Not living "by the sword".

When the Goyim threatened us with death, we always turned to the Torah. When they threatened our religion, not our lives, like by making a SHmad, then, and only then, did we put our lives on the line and go to war against impossible odds.

We all know thats the diff between Purim and Chanukah. On Chanukah, they didnt want to kill any Jews. They just attacked "Hashem" - wanted to stop Torah and Mitzvos. So we fought. But on Purim they wanted to kill us - so we didnt make a war; we prayed.

In an interview that Rav Elchonon ZTL had with a Yiddish newspaper before the war, he said that those who resort to the methods of "answering violence with violence" are considered Rodfim of Klall Yisroel - peopel who put Jewish lives in danger.  The Halachic status of such people is that you are allowed to kill them, and by killing them, it is considered as if you saved the Jewish lives that would have been lost because of their irresponsible actions.

Regarding a homeland, the torah prohibits us to have a homeland in Eretz Yisroel before MOshiach comes. The punishment, it says, is that if we do take Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, Hashem will allow the Jews to be "hunted down and butchered like animals in the field." Rachmana Litzlan.

One of the reasons for not making a Jewish State in Israel, aside form the Torahs prohibition, was the obvious danger to Jewish lives due to the Arab resistance. The creation of the State of Israel and the ensuing middle east controversy caused so much anti-semitism, it is worse than it was before. Rav Shach ZTL writes this in his letters, and even before the founding of the State, the Gedolim were screaming that this would happen. Wrote Rav Mishoel Ber Weismandel ZTL, the great hero of the holocaust:

"These Zionists...with their offensive militancy, fanned the fires of anti-semitism in Europe, and succeeded in forging a bond of Jew hatred between Nazi Germany and the surrounding countries.

"Thee are the 'statemen' who organized the irresponsible boycott against Germany in 1933. This boycott hurt Germany like a fly attacking an elephant - but it borught calamity on the Jews of Europe. At a time when America and England were at peace with the mad dog Hitler, the Zionists forsook the only plausable method of political amenability; and ... incensec the leader of germany into a frenzy. And then, after the bitterst episode in Jewish history, thse ZIonists lured the broken refugees in the DP camps to remain in humgher and deprivation, nd refuse to relocate to any place except Palestine; only for the purpose of building their state.
"The ZIonists have incited and continue to incite an embittered Jewish youth to futile wars against world powers like ENgland, and against hundreds of millions of Arabs.

"And these same Zionist "statesmen" heedlessly push the world to the brink of another total war - revolving entirely around the Holy Land.

"...the rising anti-Seimitism in the Western World is the product of their "statesmanship"".

Rav Shach ZT"L also writes how the controversy caused by the State of Israel is likely to cause the next world war, rachmana latzlan.

The solution? I dont htink there is any. Not any more. The Zionists threw a hand grenade into a powder keg of anti-semitism with their actions. Now, the world hated us more and more. Even the Satmar Rebbe ZTL, one of the staunchest opponents of Zionism in our time, writes in several places, that even though it is clear that the State of Isael must be abolished, due to the problems it causes as well as its Halachic unacceptability, but we cannot give back it to the Arabs, since doing so would be a big Sakanah to the Jews living there. Rather, he says, the only solution is to pray for Moshiach to come and let him abolish the State.

I have not heard of any Tzadik come up with any solution to this problem. The Gedolim tried to prevent it - as in the writing of Rav Mishoel Ber and Rav Elchonon ZTL - but the Zionists ignored their pleas and put us in this position anyway. Once the fire is burning, I havent heard anyone suggest a way to put it out.

Except to pray to Hashem and to return to the Torah.

Of course hishtadlus is needed, but the question is, what path to take for hishtadlus? Both advance and retreat are Hishtadlus, and both are appropriate in their proper times.

Chazal tell us that for Klall Yisroel, the histadlus that will be successful for us, is never, ever, to assert ourselves to or to confront the nations of the world. That will be our salvation.

We must never even demand things of the nations - we can only request, Rav Elchonon says. We cannot protest against them, we canot demand they give us anything, we cannot write newspaper articles about how wrong they are (between ourselves, yes, we can and should; but to the world, in public, we cannot).

That is not relying on a miracle, that is practical advice from Chazal based on the factual dynamics in the relationship between the Jewish Nation and the Goyish Nations. The psychology of the Goyim, the Jews, and all other factors were considered by G-d and this is the advice - and orders that he gave us.

If we lay low, submit to the nations, we will live. Else, c"v...

This is how Klall Yisroel survived all these years. This is the onyl way we can survive in the future.

The victories of the IDF were battles; the war with the ARabs is not over. Far from it. The IDF has not conquered their enemies. On the contrary, more people have been killed by the enemy - Arabs - in Israel since the inception of the State than everywhere else in the world put togethr where we have no army. And that, despite the fact that more Jews always lived - and still do - outside EY.

And even the "victories" are questionable. Israel "won" the war of '48. But 6,000 Jews were killed in it. that means, if oyu add up all the ppl killed in the WTC tragedy, double that, and make believe they were all Jews - that still doesnt equal the amount of Jews killed in a "victory".

Depends what you consider victory. If you want land, and are willign to give Jewish blood, which is of course against everythgin the Torah teaches - a Jewish life is worth more than all the land, including eretz Yisroel and the Bais HaMikdahs itself - then its a victory, I suppose.

On purim, they only fought AFTER the enemy was neutralized. When the Gezeirah was over, and the Jews had the support of the government, they "mopped up" their enemies. they did NOT fight Achashveirosh to nullify the decree.

Even today, it is clear that the incendiary acts of the Kahanists have caused Jewish blood to spill. Including that of Kahane himslef, and his son and daughter in law. His way did not work for him. It doesnt work for anyone.

The insane act of the Kachnik Tatiana Soskin caused an Arab uprising that killed and maimed may Jews. Sharon's incendiary remarks on the Har Habayis triggered suicide bombers. CHaim Weissman's insane declaration on the radio that the Jews are declaring war on Hitler damaged all hopes of nagotiating with that animal and caused the deaths of unkown numbers of jews. The very declaration that the Jews are taking over Israel caused the Arab hatred for the Jews, including the Chevron massacre, and the Mufti's unlikely alliance with Hitler. I could go on and on.

No, its not "OK" if 6,000,000 Jews are killed.  But we dont have an option of eliminating anti-semitism, we only have the option of minimizing casualties. And that means laying low, Chazal say.

Rav Yochana ben Zakai was willign to give up Jerusalem to the Romans rather than fight, in order to save Jewish lives. The militants, with the same argumnets as you, decided to fight. If not for them, Jerusalem would not have been destroyed.

The same applies for the first destruction.

Throughout history, those who wanted to fight were the ones who cause untold death and suffering for Jews. Like the Baryonim. And like Kahane.

Our only hope is to listen to Chazal and the Gedolei Yisroel who tell us that militancy is nto the way to survival. Peaceful political requests to the nations, and finding favor in their eyes works for us.

Fighting works for the Goyim.

If we would fight, we would end up like the Goyish nations that came into existence in the days we did.

Dead. Obliterated. Gone.

Only because we did not fight in Golus and submitted to the reality of being a sheep among 70 wolves did we outlive all of them.

Kahane and those like him would change that. he would make us into a Goyishe "becharvo sichye" nation who will c"v perish like all such nations.

If it aint broken dont fix it.

Judiasm aint broken. Weve done better than anyone else, survival-wise. Dont change that. The only other option is to have more Jews killed, not less. That was Kahane's choice.

Thank G-d it is not Klall Yisroel's.

Its very very poshut. It says nowhere that the reason Rabi Yochanan ben Zakai was worried on hsi deathbed was because he wanted to give away yerushalayim. In fact, that decision of his is used dozens of times in the Rishonim and Achronim as a halachah l'maaseh example of how we are to act when dealing with the danger form the Goyim.

Rabi Akiva did not say Rav Yochana ben Zakai was wrong for wanting to give away Yerushalayim, as oppsoedto fighting for it. Rabi AKiva said that RYB"Z had an opporutnity to avoid a war altogetehr by askign the Romans to go home, as per his one wish granted to him by Aspasyonus. But not a single opinion - of Rabi AKiva or anyone else - says that chas v'sholom Rav Yochana ben Zakai should have fought for Jerusalem.

There is no quesiton that all the land in the world - including Yerushalayim and the Bais Hamikdosh itself - it not worth a single Jewish life. The idea that Jewish lives are expendable in order to own land is baseless and against the Torah.

Moshiach exists in many stages. The Rambam writes for instance that Moshiach will have to make all Jews do Teshuva, which will be a sign that he is in reality Moshiach. Once we know that, we follow him to the Geulah.

SO Moshiach does things in preparation for the Geulah as well as the Geulah itself. I imagine thats why, in DIvrei Yoel, the Satmar Rebbe writes that we have to wait for "Eliyahu and Moshiach" to terminate Israel, since Eliyahu's functioning is preparation for the Geulah

So he is saying that, before the Geulah happens, Israel will have to be abloished, and the only way he can think of that happening now without endangering Jews is for Eliyahu and Moshiach to do it before the redemption.

Thsoe who kileld the Kahanes werent targeting any Jews - they were targeting the Kahanes specifically.

"G-d's annointed"? I don't think so.

The Netziv never said anythign about chas vsholom creating a Jewish State in EY. He was in favor of colonizing Eretz Yisroel, which was then under Turkish authority. The Netziv was niftar before Herzl even dreamed up the idea of a Jewish State.

Zionists like to present anyone who loves Eretz Yisroel as Zionist, thereby hijacking our Torah sages to further their own agenda, which was making a Jewish State. Its a common Zionist propaganda tactic to confuse the issue of the holiness of Eretz Yisroel and the zechus (and according to some even a Mitzvah) of living there, with Statehood. The first is a Torah concept, the second is Zionism.

Haba lhargechah surely does nto apply here.  Kahane lied about this to his people very often. He would site the CHevron massacre, for instance, as "proof" that the Arabs want to kill Jews regardless of the State of Israel, since there was no State of Israel in 1939, when the massacre took place.

But of course thats a lie - Zionism wpredated the State of Israel. The Balfour declaration happened in 1917, the ZIonist COngress in 1897. The Zionists were already fighting violently with the ARabs and the English, way before the State was created. And it was the Zionists that instigated the Chevron massacre (nnot that that alleviates any responsibility on the part of the murderers) with their anatagonizing the Arabs with threats to take over the Kosel grounds, as well as the entire land.


Kahane knew that.

Kahane's way is against the Torah, as explained above. And that derech didnt work for Kahane or his son. We dont want what happend to them to happen to us.

The "war" in Persia was not against the oaths because we were not fighting any governments, but acting with full support of the Persian government, according to their decree. We were not Jews rebelling against naitons, but favored citizens rebelling mopping up conspirators.

Jews are allowed to be in foreign governments. There is no Oath agaisnt that.

The Oaths are based on a Posuk in Shir Hashirim, as the Gemora states.

The problem with Zionism is NOT that the Zionists were our enemies - although thats true too. The problem with Zionism is NOT that Erezt Yisroel itself is worthless withotu the Bais Hamikdash - nobody ever said that. The problem with Zionism is that nowadays while we are still in Golus, when no Navi told us the time to enter EY has arrived - under the current circumstances for us to take EY, is against the Torah. What does that have to do with Dayenu? Then, it was the right time - Hashem Himself said so. He led us in. Today is not the right time - and so it is a terrible aveirah. All the other problems, such as the anti-semtism and deaths caused by having the State, are secondary to, and may be a result of, that.

If anything, Jabotinsky should be suffixed with "shem rishayim yirkav." ("may the name of the wicked rot")


Our general position in Golus is to avoid and even run from confrontation with the Goyim,

This is where I generally stop with reading such insanities. 
You blather on and on about nonsensical mumbo-jumbo. 

What your problem is, is that you do not want a right winger in Israel.  You want left wing filth.  This way, you can achieve another holocaust, people will feel sorry for you, while you march to the gulags...  That's the bottom line with you NK's and left wing filth. Sickos.

What you FAIL to GET - is that no matter WHAT you do--as a Jew, you will A L W A Y S be hated.
Because people hate HaShem.

It has ZERO to do with Zionism.  They hate Jewish people because they EXIST.

Non-Jews do NOT repsect you at all.  Not even a little.  Why?  Because you are an appeasing idiot.
 N O B O D Y respects a cowardly fool.

In your INSANE (needing of a straight jacket) opinion, you want Jews here - to just sit back, & say nothing as impossible, treacherous fools like yourself do zero as we Jews are going through much Jew-hatred for just existing. 

Even Jews opposed to the existence of Israel are going through Jew-hate right now, so nice try, but a FAIL.  That's why you are scared.  Because no matter what you do, you are facint Jew-hatred, so you come here to blame someone instead of accepting that this is the way it is.

YOU want us to sit back, or run from non Jews if they want to murder us. YOU do not want to fight it back because of your cowardice, and are admonishing us who WILL fight back.


Little baby.
Scared of your own shadow.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 08:30:56 AM by AsheDina »
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