My opinion regarding some of Israel's so-called "heroic" actions

[zachor_ve_kavod]

I think the single greatest improvement that Israel can make for its people, its security, and yes, its morality, is to STOP caring about what America and the rest of the world thinks about it.

Case in point: supporters of Israel have been saying how heroic Israel is because its risks the lives of its own soldiers by making them go into Gaza in order to warn civilians that an airstrike is imminent. Don't get me wrong, I like hearing Ted Cruz saying how wonderful is because it does this or that for its enemies. When the allies bombed Dresden, it did so to break the German's spirit, which it did.

Israel could have eliminated Hamas any time it wanted. And they could have done the entire job in a matter of hours. But because Netanyahu and others have such a slave mentality, and it wants the approval of countries who would never approve of Israel no matter what it did, they are prolonging this war unnecessarily, and over 50 IDF soldiers have been killed needlessly.

I remember hearing Rabbi Kahane say during a debate, that when his son serves in the army he wants to know that his CO cares more about his son's safety than he does about the Arabs who dream of bringing a holocaust of hatchets and knives.

The bottom line is this: Israel has to look after its own interest, not its enemies' interests. Israel needs to stop trying to impress other countries by how noble it is. Hamas hides its rockets in schools, hospitals, and mosques. They do this in order to maximize civilian casualties. And it works. It makes the media and world leaders hate Israel even more than they do usually.

So Israeli leaders say that they care more about saving "Palestinians" than Hamas does. Why is that a noble thing, especially when you risk the lives of Jewish soldiers to do it? It only sounds stupid to me. The way I see it, the blood of every soldier killed while trying to save the lives of Israel's enemies, is on the head of every Israeli leader who sees risking the lives of Jewish soldiers in order to protect Israel's enemies as a moral imperative.

I hear Israel's supporters say, "See how good Israel is? No other country in the world would risk the lives of its own soldiers in order to protect the lives of its enemies!" Of course no other country would do that. Because as Rabbi Kahane used to say, it's because those other countries are normal.

In sum, I want to see Israel wipe out Hamas for good. And if that means that innocent civilians will die, well, they brought it upon themselves by electing Hamas in the first place. It's time Israel started behaving like God is on their side, and make a point to all the Arab and Muslim countries that are watching the events in Gaza very carefully. That point is, that if you attack us, we will kill you, quickly and thoroughly.

I'm sure my viewpoint would be roundly condemned by Alan Dershowitz and the Israeli Left, which is probably a good indication that I've taken the moral position.

I'd be curious to know what some of you think about this.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Honestly, if Israel carpetbombed Hamas, the people like Ted Cruz who are praising Israel now for strange and illogical things, would find ways to praise them for smart, logical things.   And the same people who condemn them now would still condemn them.   They will not lose any support by fightng the enemy.   There must be some other reasons they refuse to do so.

[Manch]

Completely agree! I feel nauseous when I hear even well-meaning people praising Israel for BEING STUPID & TREACHEROUS towards Jews.

[muman613]

I fully agree.

There are no 'innocent palestinians' (as we know there are no such thing as 'ethnic palestinians' or a 'people') but even human shields are valid targets when they are shielding missiles, tunnels, grenades, and weapons of war. I feel no pangs of guilt over it either. While I am not happy over 1300 arabs have died, I am not sorry about it, and if more die so be it, they have brought it on their own heads. I am a Jew and I value life, and death makes me sad, and yet I realize that the death of the enemy is something to thank Hashem for. I do not want more death, but I do want more Jewish life in the Holy Land, and these varmints are like evil pests who must be removed from the land.

If only the arabs could have lived in peace then things might have been different. Not that I want them to accept any land which the Jewish state gives to them (foolishly) but if they were peace-loving people they could have been living next to us by now. I have no hope that the arabs want peace as they repeatedly demonstrate their desire for jihad against us. There is no moderate islamic arab as all strains of islam detest Judaism and the Jewish people (as their prophet commanded them to). We have no choice but to fight them without any restraint, with the ultimate goal of the elimination of their ability to wage war against us. Then they should be relocated FAR FAR away from the Jewish state.

[Irish Zionist]

While I am not happy over 1300 arabs have died

Really? I'm over the moon they are dead & wish many many more would die.

I do not want more death, but I do want more Jewish life in the Holy Land, and these varmints are like evil pests who must be removed from the land.

To have more Jewish life is to have more Arab deaths.

I have no hope that the arabs want peace as they repeatedly demonstrate their desire for jihad against us.

I'm glad you have no hope because there is none.

[muman613]

Death is not the purpose of life. Hashem create all life with the intention to live a life of good. Hashem is kind to all his creations, this is a very integral part of our belief. In our prayers (Psalm 145) we mention the following:

"Hashem is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and great in kindliness. Hashem is good to all, His mercies are on all His creatures. . . Hashem supports all the fallen, and straightens all the bent. The eyes of all look to You with hope, and You give them their food in its proper time. You open Your Hand, and satisfy the desire of every living thing. Righteous is Hashem in all His ways, and magnanimous in all His deeds. Hashem is close to all who call upon Him -- to all who call upon Him sincerely. . ."

Hashem even created our enemies. He created them with love and intended for them to be good (as everything Hashem created in the story of creation was called good [except for the 2nd day]). So while I accept as a fact of life the necessity to eliminate the enemies of the Jewish nation (Hashems people), I do not feel joy because this is our situation. The Talmud explains that it is better for the evil ones to repent and return to Hashem than it is for us to kill them.

So what I am saying is that while we regard life with great respect, we also take into account the will of Hashem, who places obstacles and enemies in our path so that we have to react in a manner which stretches the limitations of our 'comfort zone'.

I hope it is clear my position is not that the arab enemies are actually good... Rather they are evil, and we must deal with them as enemies, but I do feel bad it is like this. It would have been better for the world had the arabs never existed.

[muman613]

I have posted on the topic of whether we should rejoice when our enemies fall..

I will not go into the entire topic. But it basically says that we are permitted to rejoice if the fall of the enemy reveals the divine will of Hashem in the world. When our enemies failure is proof of Hashems awesome influence in world events, then we can celebrate. But we should not celebrate the suffering of the others for our own sakes. Judgement on the Jewish people is precise and should we act in a manner which is arrogant we will be judged for the worse.

The prime example of this is the episode at the splitting of the sea, when the nation sang the "Song at the Sea" to celebrate the decimation of the Egyptian army... Here it was permitted to rejoice in song (while the angels protested about this).

[Every Jew AK47]

Zachor, you have voiced my sentiments exactly.. Many people yell at me saying why don't I go and join Tzahal and destroy Hamas. I  tell them that I would not want me or my child to go and fight an enemy and be crippled, maimed or dead in the name of protecting bloodthirsty, Jew-hating Arab civilians.  Those same Arabs voted Hamas into power and should hold full responsibility for their actions.   There should have bee no Israeli soldiers killed in this conflict.  The fact that young Israeli boys had to be crippled and killed going into Gaza is a real crime against humanity and the blood of those innocent Israeli soldiers will be on the head of the Traitors in the Knesset and Netanyahu who cares more for appeasing world opinion than he does about the lives of innocent young Israeli boys. 

I think that Gaza should be bombed into submission until surrender.  Israel should ignore the UN and American Democrats and if they wish to declare war on Israel, then let them do so.  Indeed, a few European countries swore they would fight Israel to protect the Arabs, I say bring it on!  I think Israel in an all out fight for survival could destroy all of Western Europe if they needed.  Even the Russians would face the fight of their life if Israel did not have the UN to hamper its efforts.  Europe  has a lion in a choke collar, but sooner or later that lion will need to realize it is not Europe's pet and that it can be its own leader and fight for its own survival.

Personally, I think this whole invasion is pathetic and foolishness..  And, I would not even doubt that after all of this Netanyahu would succumb and try to find some type of peace agreement or deal with Hamas.   I would not be surprised if Hamas is still live and well after this whole ordeal.   What is the point of myself or me sending my son to die a horrible death being shot , crippled or blown up with a mortar or IED all for in the end having just another worthless peace agreement with terrorists??   It's not worth it.. 

Israel needs new leadership , not just more ground invasions to destroy tunnels and rocket pads that will be rebuilt and resupplied.

[muman613]

Obviously the current leadership is too weak to move us past the current 'tit-for-tat' response which goes on year after year. The only rational answer is to destroy the terrorist threat completely.

And I agree that Bibi is NOT the one to carry us forward.

[Israel Chai]

My twin brother is dating an UGLY Spanish goy that is a complete anti-semite and I can't stand. I cry for this seriously. Anyone that can recite tehillim for him, PLEASE, it's urgent right now. He is like a genius and will make loads of money, and he says "she has a nice body" (which apparently doesn't include the face, or entire front part), which is completely untrue, and when I saw her mother and imagined that my brother could end up with a creature that horrid, it was the first time I was ever capable of being rude to someone in my own house, so I just stayed in my room. I don't know what to do. A guy in Jews for Judaism said "be her friend and get him interested in Torah through getting her to talk to him about Torah", and honestly he's a great guy whose nose at that moment I really wanted to break. I don't want to be her friend, and if my brother marries her, I'm not going to the wedding, and I'm spending my life to break it up. I lost one brother already to an anti-semite Portuguese, and now he's completely alienated, and I can't loose another.

[muman613]

My twin brother is dating an UGLY Spanish goy that is a complete anti-semite and I can't stand. I cry for this seriously. Anyone that can recite tehillim for him, PLEASE, it's urgent right now. He is like a genius and will make loads of money, and he says "she has a nice body" (which apparently doesn't include the face, or entire front part), which is completely untrue, and when I saw her mother and imagined that my brother could end up with a creature that horrid, it was the first time I was ever capable of being rude to someone in my own house, so I just stayed in my room. I don't know what to do. A guy in Jews for Judaism said "be her friend and get him interested in Torah through getting her to talk to him about Torah", and honestly he's a great guy whose nose at that moment I really wanted to break. I don't want to be her friend, and if my brother marries her, I'm not going to the wedding, and I'm spending my life to break it up. I lost one brother already to an anti-semite Portuguese, and now he's completely alienated, and I can't loose another.

I feel sorry for your situation... It is terrible when things like this happen. So many Jews are committing spiritual suicide. I know the problem, it has infected my family like a plague.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Some people here don't want to achieve the victory, I guess.

[muman613]

Some people here don't want to achieve the victory, I guess.

Who here?

You realize LSDBR that more than 90% of Israelis support an all out war against the enemy. Your constantly talking badly about Israelis is really misrepresenting the facts.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have posted on the topic of whether we should rejoice when our enemies fall..

I will not go into the entire topic. But it basically says that we are permitted to rejoice if the fall of the enemy reveals the divine will of Hashem in the world. When our enemies failure is proof of Hashems awesome influence in world events, then we can celebrate. But we should not celebrate the suffering of the others for our own sakes. Judgement on the Jewish people is precise and should we act in a manner which is arrogant we will be judged for the worse.

The prime example of this is the episode at the splitting of the sea, when the nation sang the "Song at the Sea" to celebrate the decimation of the Egyptian army... Here it was permitted to rejoice in song (while the angels protested about this).

Omg please not this again.  "Enemy" in that context refers to a fellow Jew one has personal enmity for because they wronged him in some way.  It does not refer to enemy nations and members of enemy nations who are killing us in a national conflict!!!   And certainly not amalek

[muman613]

Omg please not this again.  "Enemy" in that context refers to a fellow Jew one has personal enmity for because they wronged him in some way.  It does not refer to enemy nations and members of enemy nations who are killing us in a national conflict!!!   And certainly not amalek

Why are you saying this? I know this, and if you read what I said, I fully support the killing of the enemy. You somehow twist what I am saying into a defense of the wicked, which is not what I said at all.

Human life is precious, whether it is our enemy or not. We should not be happy having to destroy life. We believe that all human life has placed before it the option of acting righteous. This does not detract from our responsibility to protect ourselves at all. And even the Talmud will attest to the fact that when judgment is rendered, and war is declared, that innocent lives will die along with the wicked. I am fully aware of this and have no problem with it.

But my bigger message is that a person who is happy killing another human being can become very perverted in their morality. Killing the enemy is a response to their evil actions, and we are acting in Hashems honor and in his name when we cut down the enemy. And those few innocents (and believe me I know that most of them are not innocents) who die are just a casualty of the wicked arabs who provoked this war.

So you do not have to explain to me what I am talking about here. I am fully aware of the different kinds of enemies.

[muman613]

And believe me, I am one who can muster in himself the desire to kill the enemy. As I want vengeance on the enemy to bring honor to Hashem and his people. My own family was attacked on 9/11 and I still have not witnessed true justice for this. I long to see the victory over the enemy (probably more than most). But for me it will not be killing which makes me happy, but rather the knowledge that justice has been done in Hashems world, and Hashem is a just King for his people.

[Israel Chai]

Muman is saying that we should not rejoice that Arabs died, we should rejoice that our enemies died, and that subtle difference is the difference between being a psychopath and being a Jew.