Response to Italian Zionist

[Hrvatski Noahid]

There is a scholarly document made by Uri Yosef which shows the anti-Jewish verses in the New Testament. Contact me and I will send it to you.

[ItalianZionist]

Thank you. Please send me the link on here. Or maybe it's best if you post it on this thread so others can see it. If its a document maybe you can cut and paste the major points on this thread. Thanks

[Hrvatski Noahid]

Thank you. Please send me the link on here. Or maybe it's best if you post it on this thread so others can see it. If its a document maybe you can cut and paste the major points on this thread. Thanks

The Gospel of Matthew contains approximately 90 verses of defamatory anti-
Jewish polemic:

3:7c The Pharisees and Sadducees are called poisonous snakes
12:34a The Pharisees are called evil poisonous snakes
15:3-9 Condemnation of the Pharisees for rejecting the commandments
15:12-14 The Pharisees are called blind guides leading the blind
16:6 Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees
19:3-9 The Pharisees are said to be hard-hearted
19:28 The disciples of Jesus will judge the twelve tribes of Israel
22:18c The Pharisees are called hypocrites
23:13-36 The scribes and Pharisees are repeatedly vilified as hypocrites
23:38 The house of Jerusalem is to be forsaken and desolate
26:59-68 The chief priests and council condemn Jesus as deserving death
27:1-26 The people demand that Jesus, not Barabbas, be crucified
27:62-66 The chief priests and Pharisees request a guard at Jesus' tomb
28:4 The guards tremble and become like dead when the angel appears
28:11-15 The chief priest bribe the guards to lie about their actions

The Gospel of Mark contains approximately 40 verses of defamatory anti-Jewish
polemic:

3:6 The Pharisees are said to have begun to plan to destroy Jesus
7:6-13 Condemnation of the Pharisees for rejecting the commandments
8:15 Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees
10:2-5 The Pharisees are said to be hard-hearted
14:55-65 The chief priests and council condemn Jesus as deserving death
15:1-15 The crowd demands that Jesus, not Barabbas, be crucified

The Gospel of Luke contains approximately 60 verses of defamatory anti-
Jewish polemic:

3:7c The multitudes are called poisonous snakes
4:28-30 The members of the synagogue in Nazareth try to kill Jesus
7:30 The Pharisees are said to have rejected the purposes of God
11:39-54 The Pharisees and Torah scholars are repeatedly condemned
12:1b Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy
13:14-17 The ruler of the synagogue is condemned as a hypocrite
13:35a The house of Jerusalem is to be forsaken
22:63-71 The chief priests and council condemn Jesus as deserving death
23:1-25 The people demand that Jesus, not Barabbas, be crucified

The Gospel of John contains approximately 130 verses of defamatory anti-
Jewish polemic:

5:16-18 The Jews are said to have persecuted Jesus and wanted to kill him
5:37b-47 It is said that God's word and God's love is not in the Jews
7:19-24 It is said that none of the Jews do (what is written in) the Torah
7:28d It is said that the Jews do not know the One who has sent Jesus
8:13-28 It is said that the Pharisees know neither Jesus nor the Father
8:37-59 The Jews are said to be descendants of their father, the Devil
9:13-41 The Pharisees and other Jews are condemned as guilty
10:8 The Jews are said to be thieves and robbers
10:10a The Jews are depicted as those who steal and kill and destroy
10:31-39 The Jews are said to have picked up stones to throw at Jesus
11:53 It is said that the Jews realized that they would have to kill Jesus
11:57 It is said that the chief priests and Pharisees wanted to seize Jesus
12:10 It is said that the chief priests planned to kill Lazarus and Jesus
12:36b-43 It is said that most Jews loved the praise of men more than of God
16:2-4 (The Jews who) kill Jesus' disciples will think they are serving God
18:28-32 The Jews are said to have demanded that Pilate sentence Jesus to
death
18:38b-40 The Jews are said to be demanding that Jesus, not Barabbas, be
crucified
19:4-16 The Jews are depicted as insisting to Pilate that Jesus be crucified

The Acts of the Apostles contains approximately 120 verses of defamatory
anti-Jewish polemic:

2:23b Peter tells the men of Israel that they crucified Jesus
2:36b Again Peter tells the men of Israel that they crucified Jesus
3:13b-15a Peter tells the men of Israel that they killed the originator of life
4:10a Again Peter tells the men of Israel that they killed Jesus
5:30b Peter tells the members of the Jewish council that they killed Jesus
6:11-14 Some Jews are said to have brought false accusations against
Stephen
7:51-60 Stephen shown as condemning the Jews for betraying and killing
Jesus
9:1-2 Paul is depicted as planning the arrest of disciples of Jesus
9:23-25 Jews are said to have plotted to kill Paul
9:29b Jewish Hellenists are also said to have tried to kill Paul
12:1-3a It is said that the Jews were pleased when Herod killed James
12:3b-4 Herod is said to have seized Peter also to please the Jews
12:11 Peter is said to have realized that the Jews wanted to kill him
13:10-11 Paul is said to have condemned the Jew Elymas as a son of the
Devil
13:28-29a It is said that the Jews had asked Pilate to crucify Jesus
13:39d It is said that Jews cannot be forgiven by means of the Torah
13:45-46 Jews are said to have spoken against Paul
13:50-51 Jews are said to have encouraged persecution of Paul and Barnabas
14:1-6 Many Jews opposing Paul and Barnabas and attempting to stone them
14:19-20 Jews are said to have stoned Paul, thinking that they had killed him
17:5-9 Jews are said to have incited a riot, looking for Paul and Silas
17:13 Jews are said to have stirred up turmoil against Paul
18:6 Paul said to have told the Jews, "Your blood will be on your own
heads!"
18:12-17 Jews are said to have brought accusations against Paul
19:13-19 Jewish exorcists are shown to be condemned
21:27-36 Jews are depicted as seizing Paul and as trying to kill him
22:4-5 Paul says that when he was a Jew he had persecuted Christians
23:2-5 Paul is said to have condemned the chief priest for striking Paul
23:12-22 Jews are said to have plotted to eat nothing until they kill Paul
23:27-30 Paul is said to have been nearly killed by the Jews
24:9 The Jews are said to have accused Paul of many crimes
25:2-5 Jews are said to have plotted to kill Paul
25:7-11 Jews are said to have continued to bring accusations against Paul
25:15-21 Jews are said to have spoken repeatedly against Paul
25:24 All Jews are said to have shouted that Paul must be killed
26:21 The Jews are said to have seized Paul and tried to kill him
28:25-28 Paul is said to have condemned the Jews for never understanding
God

Four verses, which constitute some of the most virulent anti-Jewish polemic
present in the New Testament, are found within the seven letters written by Paul
and the six Pseudo-Pauline and Deutero-Pauline epistles:

2:13-16 Condemning the Jews for killing Jesus and the prophets, and celebrating the suffering of the Jews now that the "wrath of God" has come upon them

Regardless of how it found its way into the New Testament, can such defamatory anti-Jewish language be the "breathed word of God", as many Christians believe the New Testament is, or the "inspired word of God", as many other Christians believe?

[ItalianZionist]

Thank you for the list. I will address all of the comments about the Pharisees collectively:
    The comments toward the Pharisees are not directed toward the Jewish people as a whole. If I criticize a certain cleric or clerics of a certain faith am I condemning all the clerics of that faith? Am I condemning everyone who follows that faith? For example, if I condemn "catholic priests" for molesting children am I also condemning the catholic priests who helped hide Jews during the holocaust? (700,000 Jews by the way...see the Jewish historian Pinchas Lapide). If I criticise a Hindu priest am I saying that all hindus will go to hell? Think for a second. How is criticizing a small group of Pharisees criticizing all Jews. This type of thinking reminds me of antisemites who say that the crowd said "let his blood be on us and our children" condemned the whole Jewish race. What a small group of people do (or even a large group for that matter) does not stain  all the people of that larger group. I have been saying this over and over again, JESUS NEVER CONDEMNED ALL JEWS. Never mind what some evil popes and so called "christians" did throughout history. If you read about the life of Jesus you will in no way believe that he would ever believe that a whole group of people are codemned for the sins of a few. I will say it again, JESUS NEVER CONDEMNED ALL JEWS. WHere does Jesus say that all Jews are bad? Point it out to me. My challenge was as follows if you remember: " I amicably challenge anyone on this forum to show me where Jesus is against All Jews"...Please remember my challenge is in regard to ALL JEWS. Just because Jesus criticized SOME JEWS, it does not mean he is criticizing ALL JEWS. THIS IS MY POINT. I AM NOT SAYING THAT ALL THE POPES WERE GOOD, OR ALL "CATHOLICS" ARE GOOD. I am saying that in the christian bible all Jews are not condemned. Jesus critized the Pharisees because they were so concerned with getting Him killed that they were not looking at their own iniquites and sins. WHy do you think that God didn't give them a victory over the Romans? Obviously the Pharisees didn't have their own house in order, wouldn't you agree? They obeyed the minutiae of the law such as tithing spices, but not the weightier matters of the law. The Pharisees presented an appearance of being 'clean' (self-restrained, not involved in carnal matters), but they were dirty inside (the Christian belief anyway). Does this mean that ALL JEWS are dirty? no good? going to hell? No. Again I challenge anyone, where did Jesus say that all Jews are bad? A matter of fact the early christians did not believe they made a "new religion" they believed they were Jews. Jesus said "I did not come to change the scriptures. I came to fullfill them." So regarding all your comments regarding condemnation  of the Pharisees, it is illogical to think it applies to ALL JEWS.
I will end my discussion of the pharisees with one last point and I welcome you to pose any counterarguments (please feel welcome to respond to any of my arguments and I am not offended in any way and I hope you or anyone on this forum is not): Isn't it possible that the Pharisees AT THAT TIME weren't the best that Judaism had to offer? Isn't it possible that they may have not behaved the way God wanted them? The Pharisees condemn Jesus for healing the sick on the Sabbath. Wasn't there anything better that they could have been doing at the time? They were in the middle of a MASSIVE EVIL EMPIRE OF ROME controlling the Holy Land. Couldn't they do something better than trying to have a pacifist killed? I know this is not your belief as a Jew, however please try to think objectively here. Obviously they were doing something wrong for God to allow Rome to be on top of them. But again, I apologize for the digression. My point is all the items you wrote do not show JESUS condemning ALL JEWS. He is critisizing a small group of clerics in THAT AREA, at THAT TIME. He did not even critisize ALL THE PHARISEES, RABBIS ETC. Just a small group. Did he say ALL THE PHARISEES ARE BAD? Where? point it out.

As far as: "The house of Jerusalem is to be forsaken.": This is obvious. You mean to tell me that the house of Jeruselem was not froesaken in the 200 years that followed that time? Look at the destruction of the temple, the bar kov Va rebellion etc. That prophecy is just stating a fact. It doesn't mean the eternal covenant is over with Israel. It just means for that time.

I don't know why you bring up Barabus. WHat does this mean please? Please clarify if you like. Just because barabus is described as a criminal, the new testament is condemning all Jews? nonsense of course. SO the crowd demanded Jesus be crucified. Does that mean that the "crowd" represents ALL JEWS?? Nonsense. DId all Jews descend from that crowd? No..nonsense. I know some so called "Christians " try to say this but they are mentally retarded...probably. The point is that Jesus did not say anything anti Jewish here. Remember Jesus said nothing against the Jewish religion. His two GREATEST COMMANDMENTS COME RIGHT FROM THE TORAH (Leviticus). HE said " I did not come to change the Scriptures. I came to fullfill them." SO he's not saying anything is wrong with the scriptures. Obvious? AGain, those Pharisees do not represent ALL JEWS. I am not sure why you would believe so (if you do).

RE: "The multitudes are called poisonous snakes":    You don't think that it's possible that some Jews back then were not the best people? It's like some black people saying "We are all kings and queens." Jews are a special people with a special purpose on earth. To be a light on to the nations. Does this mean every last Jew is the "best person"? Tell that to Golda Meir, Sat Myr, etc etc etc. Making you a Jew does not mean you are automatically free from sin or better than anyone else if you do sin, or free from criticism.
But yes, collectively, the Jews are a special people as a whole, for God's purposes. And you can be sure that there were many snakes back then. If the passage said "All people in the land of Israel are snakes, or all Jews are snakes, then you would have an argument. Remember Jesus said, "I did not come to change the scriptures." Which means that he has nothing against Judaism (the scriptures), He has a probelem with some of the people back them. And please don't tell me that every last Pharisee or Jew back then was a "sadeek" (saint).

[ItalianZionist]

I will end with the Epistle you mentioned. And please respond or ask me to clarify any item. I sincerely thank you for this, I am not the most religious person and I am not a Christian scholar, but even to a logical person, my responses are indeed logical if you look at it from an objective way.
Regarding:

"You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[a]

Notice how it says "Jews  who killed the Lord Jesus"?
This passage is referring to the Jews in that arena (in front of Pontius Pilate) in that time (33 A.D.). Is this referring to ALL Jews? Obviously not. Where in the passage above does it say ALL JEWS? OR ALL JEWS for ALL TIME? This passage is addressing the small group of Jews who were yelling "crucify him."  Now even if you did not believe that Jesus was God or the Messiah or a prophet, don't you think that crowd would have something better to do then to demand the ROmans to kill a pacifist and someone who jealed the sick? (even the Talmud admits that He healed the sick) What did Jesus do in his life that he deserved crusicfiction? Even if you think he was just a plain ordinary man who was sacriligious in "claiming he was the messiah", you think they were nice people in that crowd to let a murderer free and demand the death of a pacifist rabbi? And again please read the life of Jesus from a historical prosepective. We are not talking about Muhammad here. He never said to kill people or hate people. I think many people never read the Gospels see Jesus as a Muhammad  figure possibly? Meanwhile he and Buddah were the biggest pacifists on the planet. WHy a crowd of a few "Jews" would concentrate on demanding his murder when there were so many more important things to do (the Romans conquered them, the temple was ruled by an ARAB king..Herod). There were so many problems in that period of Jewish history, yet a few people (AGAIN NOT ALL JEWS) demanded His murder from the Romans. Why do so many people believe that the people in that crowd that day represent ALL JEWS? If you do you are no better than the ANTISEMITES WHO SAY THIS. Which is common. Many anti semites say those people in that crowd are ALL the JEWS...Nonsense. If you believe so then it must have been like 800 madison square gardens that day (Romans were great engineers??...NONsense).
Thank you for this opportunity and please respond if you want clarification or if you felt I missed something. Please remember my Jewish brothers and sisters that the point of this is NOT to defend the evils of the catholic church. My point again (AND PLEASE KEEP IT IN MIND) The New Testament does not condemn ALL JEWS. Of course I believe that christianity is the way and without it I and 1 billion people would be worshipping ARIES the god of war or Thor. Then think of how anti semitic the world would be. If you think Christianity made the world worse, Just think how it would be without it. Again, my point is NOT to defend the evils of the catholic church or Martin Luther. I simple say that the New Testament does NOT condemn ALL JEWS and please show me where it uses the term ALL JEWS if you believe so. If a group of Eskimoes robs me and steals my car. ANd I say "THE ROTTEN ESKIMOES,"  did I say "ALL ESKIMOES ARE ROTTEN"? Think about it. Thank you and God bless you and all on this forum.

[Hrvatski Noahid]

I am a Noahide, not a Jew, as is obvious from my username.

I am sorry you ignored Matthew 19:28 which says the disciples of Jesus will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. The twelve tribes of Israel are, in fact, all Jews. It's not one tribe or one group. It's all the Jewish tribes. Likewise, in Acts of the Apostles 25:24 all Jews are said to have shouted that Paul must be killed.

You asked why the Jews would concentrate on demanding his murder. Have you read Deuteronomy 13:6? "And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst." Jesus personally taught the idolatrous doctrine of the trinity in Matthew 28:19, which made him a false prophet.

Your argument that without Christianity Gentiles would be worshiping Aries is either ignorant or intellectually dishonest. A large movement of Heaven Fearers was active in the Roman Empire. These were Gentile adherents to the One God Of Israel, who directed their religious loyalty to the Jewish Sages and the Holy Temple. Christianity was created to control the spread of Judaism and moderate its political virulence and continuing militancy against Rome.

[ItalianZionist]

Thank you. I'm glad you pointed this out. Regarding Matthew 19:28 "the disciples of Jesus will judge the twelve tribes of Israel":
God will judge  you. Correct? God will judge me? Agreed? Does this mean that he will send you to hell? Or condemn you? Just because someone "judges" you does this necessarily mean he will condemn you? No, of course not. If you go to court for some reason, the "judge" will judge you. Correct? It doesn't mean he/she will necessarily condemn you. AGAIN, my amicable challenge was to show me where in the new testament does it say that all Jews are condemned? Judging people is not the same as condemning them, no matter how you try to slice it Hrvatski Noahid. Moreover, the wording "you will judge" in Matthew's passage doesn't necessarally mean that the 12 apostles will have the power to decide who is condemned and who will go to heaven. God is the one who will judge and in that passage it says " Jesus" will sit on the throne, and for christians God and Jesus are One in the same. So I think we can both agree that God will be the judge. Agreed? Again. let me make this clear, that passage neither says the apostles will have the power to condemn NOR does it say they will condemn ALL Jews. Judging DOES NOT EQUAL Condemnation.

REGARDING Apostles 25:24 "All Jews are said to have shouted that Paul must be killed" :
 You honestly think that every last Jew in Israel at that time and every last Jew throughout the middle east and the Mediterrainian at that time shouted "Paul must be killed." Those people that condemned Paul are SO OBVIOUSLY NOT ALL THE JEWS. And do you think that this even includes all the jews throughout history and today? Even if by chance one of your ancestors condemned Paul, so I am going to blame you and condemn you for what ONE of your ancestors said?? Nonsense, of course not. ANd that passage does not say that. . Hrvatski Noahid why do you make these big leaps? I don't understand please clarify? I know that the Catholic church has been horrible to Jews in it's history. But if you read the life of Jesus, do you honestly think he is a hateful "being" (let us say for argument's sake if you think he was just a man) that he would condemn all Jews. When you read these passages I believe possibly you a reading them through the lense of the bad history of evil popes and priests and you're condemning the whole religion? possibly? I don't know. Maybe not.  Hrvatski, you told me that you are not a Jew, so from your name you are most likely Slavic? True? The history of the Slavic people has been HORRENDOUS  against the Jewish people. So I am going to say that since you descend from Slavs you are evil? AM I going to judge a whole religion based on many apostates who had some crazy interpretation of the new testament or will I look at the life of Jesus and his two greatest commandments; LOVE GOD WITHH ALL YOUR HEART AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF (IN THE TORAH BY THE WAY LEVITICUS so Jews and Christians do have the most important belief in common).

Regarding "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,". That is idolatrous? These are 3 names for one God. If I tell you Yaweh bless you, Jahova bless you and Hashem bless you, am I being idolotrous? But either way this has nothing to do with my challenge. PLEASE KEEP IN MIND MY CHALLENGE. THE NEW TESTAMENT DOES NOT CONMDEMN ALL JEWS. Ok so you believe that anyone who claims to be the messiah or who is a false prophet should be killed. Ok, good luck. Go down to 42nd street you will find dozens of false prophets, black hebros, moonies etc etc. So you think we should kill all of them. That's a great way to think. Real peaceful and logical. Why not let a "false prophet" preach his "nonsense> and let him fall on his own sword. But again, this has nothing to do with my challenge. Absolutely nothing. Some Jews wanted Jesus killed but he did not want to kill them. Remember what he said on the cross "Forgive them for they know not what they do." Again, nothing to do with my challenge, however this one line from the mouth of Jesus should show you that He is forgiving those who crucified Him. And if you are one of those crazy "Catholics" who believes that ALL JEWS ARE CONDEMNED "FOR CRUCIFYING JESUS" then that one SINGLE line shows you that he "un condemned" them and forgave them, so that one line blows away all your other arguments  if you think "JESUS condemned all Jews". He is not blaming all Jews for the crucifiction neither is the new testament. But once again, if you believe that Jesus condemned all Jews (and I think you do believe this, antisemites believe this also), that one line "FORGIVE THEM" means he UN-CONDEMNED them.

Regarding: A large movement of Heaven Fearers was active in the Roman Empire. This may be so, but after THREE THOUSAND years before that time the Jews did not convert the people around them, you think from the time of Jesus onward there would have been a big conversion? I don't believe so, it is because the Jewish religion is not a proselytizing religion. That's just the way it is. Was this wrong or a mistake, you judge (no pun intended--I'm asking you to analyze not condmen anyone ). But this has nothing to do with my challenge. But I thank you for it. I like to discuss it more if you like.

Regarding.
Christianity was created to control the spread of Judaism and moderate its political virulence and continuing militancy against Rome.
Where are you getting this from? Show me some evidence of this. Again this has nothing to do with my challenge. So the ROman's invented or supported Christianity to get rid of the Jews' aspirations ? The Romans killed  thousands of Christians in the coloseum. Chaim even talked about this last week. They crucified saint peter upside down with a pail of fire on his head. Sounds like they really supported Christianity? It took almost 400 years before they accepted Christianity and that is only because it was a grassroots movement (if you wish to call it that). The ROmans found too many of the people in the empire VOLUNTARILY became christians and they couldn't get rid of all of them. So show me some evidence of Christianity was created to control the spread of Judaism and moderate its political virulence and continuing militancy against Rome. But I digress. This was not my challenge.
 Hrvatski Noahid I thank you for this opportunity but I would like to say something. You appear to be a thoughtful young man who reads and studies: Let's keep the conversation civil. OK? To use terms like calling me "ignorant" is beneath you. I have always been polite in my responses to you and if I wrote something in a manner that you felt was offensive, I did not mean to be offensive. Perhaps the CAPITAL letters you felt were offensive. I just added them to bring attention to certain items and emphasis. So I thank you for this opportunity and  if you like I would like to have a discussion with you to address these points and others and we can upload them on the forum. Maybe we can talk on skype and record it to an audio file or put it on Youtube or something. I welcome a civil debate and maybe we can have others on the forum come in. I think it is much better then writing back and forth. Once again thank you. I think what you are doing is really important. God bless you.