KellyMaureen reply to one of your posts.

[Sarah]

So how come people like Ayyan Hirsi Ali, Walid Shoebat, any of the arabic speaking ex muslims on any of the number of forums there are for ex muslim online.....how could they ALL misunderstand in the exact same way we keep getting told we do....

There are 1.5 billion muslims in todays world.  Way less then 0.5% of that number are ex-muslims and even less can speak arabic. The ratio speaks for itself. A lot of people adhere to Islam, why? Why would a fifth of the worlds population believe in something that according to you is so obviously wrong. Theres something to it.

Lol he wasnt here to "change" he was here to tell us silly infidels that we are taking everything out of context, that we have to read the queeran in arabic, that it takes "years and much education" to understand it (lets not forget old moe was illiterate) and all the other BS that we get....and then when that kind of convincing wasnt going well, the mask always comes off and the threats of violence start, its so predictable.

"A false man found a religion? Why, a false man cannot build a brick house! If he does not know and follow truly the properties of mortar, burnt clay and what else be works in, it is no house that he makes, but a rubbish-heap. It will not stand for twelve centuries, to lodge a hundred and eighty millions; it will fall straightway"

Here is a verse:

(And whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast to Islam, and whomsoever He wills to send astray, He makes his breast closed and constricted, as if he is climbing up to the sky. Thus Allah puts the wrath on those who believe not.) (6:125)

It can be concluded from this verse and in interpretations that the more one ascends into the atmosphere the harder it is for him to breathe due to the reduction in pressure and low oxygen levels. This matter cannot be proven by anyone unless he ascends skywards! This fact was discovered only after man learnt how to fly and reached high elevations.

When an individual ascends into the sky beyond eight kilometers over sea level they would encounter problems specific to breathing due to the lack of oxygen and weak air pressure. A problem frequently encountered is hypoxia, which is a deficiency in the amount of oxygen reaching body tissues.

[ftf]

I'm strugggling to think of a way of summing up my opinion of this post...

OK, breathe deeply... Lets start simple, your quote, Surah 6, Ayat 125:
"125. Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe."

The comment about closed and constricted as if he were climbing upto the sky, is complete rubish, your lungs don't constrict when you climb... They actually open wider, you can't breathe as easily because the air is less thick, the quran which says that your lungs shrink is clearly wrong here.

I can go on to point out that this verse is suggesting that Allah purposely pushes peope away from Islam, couple this with all the comments about the disbelievers burning in the fire, and it becomes apparent that Allah if he exists is a sadist, deriving pleasure from choosing people to mislead and then watching them burn in hell. I';m sorry, but this alone is enough to make me reject Islam even if it were somehow proven to be the absolute truth, I could not serve someone who chooses people to burn in hell for no reason in particular.

Ok, going back to your other points, many people believe in Islam because their parents raise them in it, and there's something pulling about it, "a global muslim brotherhood", "all truths can be found in one book", etc, and then 9if you dare to question it, the penalty for apostasism is death, in many muslim areas, and it is carried out enough times to detur many others from becoming apostates of Islam.

reading your secong quote of Kelly, she doesn't use the word false, so I don't see what you're getting at.

[Sarah]

KellyMaureen Believes he is false.

The comment about closed and constricted as if he were climbing upto the sky, is complete rubish, your lungs don't constrict when you climb... They actually open wider, you can't breathe as easily because the air is less thick, the quran which says that your lungs shrink is clearly wrong here.

The verse, says breast, meaning chest and not nessecarily the lungs or respirotory system. The higher a person travels in the atmosphere, the lower the surrounding air pressure becomes, causing the internal pressure in the body to become more intense.
As you ascend to high altitudes the air becomes rarified and there is insufficient oxygen for breathing, not only this, it also gets very cold.

All of these phenomena cause changes in the functioning of the person’s internal organs. The gases in the stomach and intestines expand and cause violent contractions to occur, which can lead to bloating that puts pressure on the heart and lungs. This can lead to unconsciousness or, in severe cases, suffocation. Blood circulation becomes disrupted. Veins, arteries, and valves can burst, as well as the eardrums. Severe nosebleeds often occur.

In the normal environment in which human beings live, neither the internal pressure nor the external pressure overpowers the other. . The more a person rises into the atmosphere, the more the surrounding atmospheric pressure decreases and the internal pressure within the body increases. Though astronauts and people who go into space, have their protective clothing to prevent this from happening.

However ftf, this isn't the only message that is meant to be given through this one verse. It also suggests that this is the condition that  compares with those who cannot bear to hear the verses of the Qur’ân and Islam. They are like people who feel tightness of breath and suffocation.

“…and whomsoever He wills to send astray, He makes his breast closed and constricted, as if he is climbing up to the sky.”


You're saying that Allah is purposefully pushing people away when in fact it also represents the concept of Him being the All-Knower, All-Seer. We have all been given free will, yet our lives are pre-destined. Though they do not contradict each other, since we choose our destiny through our free will even though God already knows it.
In this case Allah knows those who have chosen to go astray, and he has  let that be out of his own will by giving US free will.

Ok, going back to your other points, many people believe in Islam because their parents raise them in it, and there's something pulling about it, "a global muslim brotherhood", "all truths can be found in one book", etc, and then 9if you dare to question it, the penalty for apostasism is death, in many muslim areas, and it is carried out enough times to detur many others from becoming apostates of Islam.

Going back to the 7th or 8th century, why did Islam spread from Arabia across to Asia and places so easily, when it could have been rejected and fought against by warriors?

[ftf]

The verse you quoted clearly says that your "breast" or your chest closes and constricts when you climb, this just isn't the case, this is what happens when you dive a long way under the ocean, when you climb it expands, what the quran says is the polar opposite of the truth, and please don't bother trying to explain science to me.

Regarding the going astray bit, it says "... and whomsoever he (allah) wils to go astray..." it's not saying he knows it, it's saying that he wills it.

Islam spread through war. Read the hadiths... Mohhammed spread his religion by lying and decieving people to get them into circumstances that made it easy for him to kill them, and the as time went on, he got enough followers, in the immediate vicinity could stand upto them, the early muslims gave many people three choices, death, second class status with crippling taxes, or become a muslim. Sometimes they didn't offer the second one, because they didn't feel like it, other times they didn't offer the third one because they wanted the money from the taxes, or they felt like killing, but the basic practise was established.

By the time lots of people discovered what islam was, it already had a huge army, so standing in it's way became hard.

[Sarah]

The verse you quoted clearly says that your "breast" or your chest closes and constricts when you climb, this just isn't the case, this is what happens when you dive a long way under the ocean, when you climb it expands, what the quran says is the polar opposite of the truth, and please don't bother trying to explain science to me.

It doesn't just say climbing, as simply as say climbing up a flight of stairs, it says climbing as if up to the sky. Meaning high altitudes. There are many illnesses that result due to High altitudes. This is something that I just found on Yahoo:

"People living above an altitude of 8,000 feet may develop pulmonary hypertension as a result of low blood oxygen (hypoxemia), which constricts the small pulmonary arteries. Especially at risk are people who climb to high elevations without first becoming acclimated. Climbers unaccustomed to high altitudes are also at risk of pulmonary edema, a condition in which the air sacs in the lungs fill with fluid instead of with air and which is always associated with pulmonary hypertension. "

The pressure on the chest constricts it, despite the air sacs expanding. I know you're brilliant at science, sorry if i've insulted you in a way.

Regarding the going astray bit, it says "... and whomsoever he (allah) wils to go astray..." it's not saying he knows it, it's saying that he wills it.

Yes but its a key belief that God knows everything and by his will we are being. He has willed it, like he wills the murder of innocent children. It is not in the will of wanting something to happen. It is in the will of humans being given stewardship and free will.
It is also telling these people who go astray that He rules over them and its by Him that they are doing what they do.

[ftf]

Don't try to call me brilliant, just don't argue when you're wrong... Typical, you have to head into biology, I'm no kind of biologist at all, I'm going to have to do some reading...

I'm out of time, for tonight, I'll have to respond tomorrow.

[Sarah]

Don't try to call me brilliant, just don't argue when you're wrong... Typical, you have to head into biology, I'm no kind of biologist at all, I'm going to have to do some reading...

I'm out of time, for tonight, I'll have to respond tomorrow.

Sure.
Listen Ftf, i wasn't being sarcastic or anything, I know you're brilliant at science because you once told me you won awards for physics. I'm not arguing with you, I do respect you.
Its not like I know this stuff, i've just looked it up on the internet and the same thing has come up on numerous sites.

[Ehud]

Don't try to call me brilliant, just don't argue when you're wrong... Typical, you have to head into biology, I'm no kind of biologist at all, I'm going to have to do some reading...

I'm out of time, for tonight, I'll have to respond tomorrow.

Sure.
Listen Ftf, i wasn't being sarcastic or anything, I know you're brilliant at science because you once told me you won awards for physics. I'm not arguing with you, I do respect you.
Its not like I know this stuff, i've just looked it up on the internet and the same thing has come up on numerous sites.

Sarah, what about all the parts of the Quran that are completely known to be false, such as the reason for darkness is because the sun sets in a muddy spring, and 999 dragons will enter your butt after you die.  For every 1 verse of the Quran that could be interpreted as scientifically or even logically correct, there are 20 that aren't. 

[newman]

There are 1.5 billion muslims in todays world.  Way less then 0.5% of that number are ex-muslims and even less can speak arabic. The ratio speaks for itself. A lot of people adhere to Islam, why? Why would a fifth of the worlds population believe in something that according to you is so obviously wrong. Theres something to it.

[

You can't quote the number of adherents to islam as a sign of it's legitimacy.

The 1.5 billion people are..............

1/ Born into the faith, have little exposure to other faiths as many islamic countries ban the teaching of other faiths under threat of death or imprisonment.

2/ They are decsended from those who were forcibly converted to Islam 1300 years ago. Forcibly convert a few million people now and you'll get a billion or so adherents in 1300 years time. Do the math.

3/ They are not allowed to change their religion under penalty of death.

Sarah,

If islam is really the truth why does islam need to prescribe a death penalty for leaving the faith? Why don't islamic countries allow the teaching of other religions if they've nothing to fear?

Christian countries allow the teaching and practice of ALL religions. They've nothing to fear, why does islam?

[Sarah]

Whats the punishment in Judaism for a Jew converting to another religion other than Judaism such as Christianity or Islam?

Ze'ev what are those verses? 999 Dragons entering your butt?

[newman]

Whats the punishment in Judaism for a Jew converting to another religion other than Judaism such as Christianity or Islam?

Ze'ev what are those verses? 999 Dragons entering your butt?

I've no idea. But it's irrelevant because no Jew anywhere on this earth for 2,000 years has suffered ANY penalty for leaving his religion. In fact, it is other religions like iSSlam who FORCED Jews to change their religion.

There is ONE Jewish State on Earth and in it Jews openly practice every cuckoo, non-Jewish religion under the sun and they enjoy full protection under the law and suffer no threats or intimidation.

Name ONE iSSlamic country where a muSSlim can change his religion without severe reprisals.