Religious Jews in America and elsewhere

[Kiwi]

I think sometimes it has little to do with persons choice of where they live, sometimes they most just follow where god directs them.

[Lubab]

Geulah (redemption) is BOTH a physical and a spiritual state. There is the external manifestations of Geulah which the Rambam is talking about there and then there are physical and the inner purpose of Geulah which is spiritual which he talks about later. 

But even in the physical sense of being free from foreign rule:

Can we really say today that the government in Israel which kicks it's own people out of their homes while putting the entire country in grave danger is a government that represents our freedom from foreign rule? The leaders in Israel are bribed and corrupt from top to bottom and contantly are willing to endanger the lives of the Jewish people for their own self-aggrendizement before the gentiles.  This, to you, is Geulah?

It appears we are still unfortunately, very much under "foreign rule", even in the Holy Land-physically and spiritually.  The Erev Rav is in the drivers seat.

In my opinion, if you just look at that part of the Rambam without any agenda you will conclude that out situation in Israel today does NOT qualify as an end to "Shibud Malchiyus". He is referring to a state of the world when we are free to learn Torah freely without fear of what the gentiles will do to us. We do not have that today.

We still must have an army to protect our borders and we have to worry about people like Ahmedinijad Y"SVZ causing another holcoust RLT"L.

P.S. In all honesty I have never learned VaYoel Moshe but was basing my opinion of the sefer on the arguments I have heard from Satmar's that were drawn from the work. Admitedly, it may be a mistake to base my opinion of the sefer on that.

[judeanoncapta]

Geulah (redemption) is BOTH a physical and a spiritual state. There is the external manifestations of Geulah which the Rambam is talking about there and then there are physical and the inner purpose of Geulah which is spiritual which he talks about later. 

Your concentration on the spiritual is actually a very dangerous idea. But I've already discussed that. Before I continue, lubab, answer me this. Is it possile in your hashkafa for 100 percent of the Jewish people to live in Eretz Yisrael and us still to be in a state of Galuth. Answer me that, please.

Can we really say today that the government in Israel which kicks it's own people out of their homes while putting the entire country in grave danger is a government that represents our freedom from foreign rule? The leaders in Israel are bribed and corrupt from top to bottom and contantly are willing to endanger the lives of the Jewish people for their own self-aggrendizement before the gentiles.  This, to you, is Geulah?

The Rambam calls every Jewish leader from Hannukah to the Hurban under the term Malkhuth Yisrael. Besides the fact that NOT ONE of them was a halakhic king. The fact is that MOST of them were evil. Much more evil than today's Israeli leaders.

King Yannai crusified 900 Talmidei Chachamim on the the Road to Jerusalem.

My G-d, even Rabin and Sharon weren't that bad.

And don't even get me started on Herod.

And the Rambam calls them all Malkhuth Yisrael.

It appears we are still unfortunately, very much under "foreign rule", even in the Holy Land-physically and spiritually.  The Erev Rav is in the drivers seat.

The Whole Spiritual Erev Rav concept is not a halakhic concept. It is a Kabalistic idea that is dangerous and indefinable. Notice how the Rambam doesn't call Yannai and Herod "Erev Rav". Just Malkhuth Yisrael, lubab. That's it.

In my opinion, if you just look at that part of the Rambam without any agenda you will conclude that out situation in Israel today does NOT qualify as an end to "Shibud Malchiyus". He is referring to a state of the world when we are free to learn Torah freely without fear of what the gentiles will do to us. We do not have that today.

You assume that I have an agenda and you do not.

That is quite an assumption.

And as far as learning Torah, there are more Yeshivot and Talmidim in Israel today than there ever were in the history of the world. So I don't know what you mean.

We still must have an army to protect our borders and we have to worry about people like Ahmedinijad Y"SVZ causing another holcoust RLT"L.

Every nation must have an army to protect it's borders. And every nation must fight enemies to survive. I hope you don't assume that life under the rule of King David was Galuth, lubab. He was known to have an army to protect borders and he fought enemies that wished to destroy Am Yisrael. I hope that you don't consider his reign Galuth, lubab. Because you will have a hard time explaining why we say "Chadesh Yamenu KiQedem" concerning his reign. I hope we are not trying to return the days of Galuth upon ourselves. Are we, lubab?

P.S. In all honesty I have never learned VaYoel Moshe but was basing my opinion of the sefer on the arguments I have heard from Satmar's that were drawn from the work. Admitedly, it may be a mistake to base my opinion of the sefer on that.

Yes, and also remember that he considered your Rebbe to be an apikoros. So, defending him is not something I thought that you would attempt on this forum.

Once again, I suggest that you listen to this shiur, lubab and then we can discuss it all you like.

http://machonshilo.org/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,5/Itemid,64/

[jdl4ever]

I agree w/ some of what Lubav wrote , disagree with a lot of it too but it is worth noting the other opinions.  My father says that the Ramban writes that it was a big mistake for Abraham to leave Israel even a time of famine when his life was in danger, but he should have trusted in G-d and stayed in the holy land, and then writes that he was punished afterwards with Sara being taken by the Pharoh of Egypt.  Then one of the commentaries parallels the events that happened to Abraham after leaving Israel to the events that happened later on to the Jews leaving in Egypt.  Both involve the Pharoh of Egypt, people being taken captive and people being thrown out by Pharoh. 

Personally,  I believe that it is crystal clear in the Torah that it is a national obligation for the Jews at all times to conquer Israel and occupy it.  Anyone who says otherwise clearly has not learned basic Torah.  But I believe (and I have my own Torah sources) that this is a national commandment, not a personal one and this is where I disagree with most of my fellow Kahanists.  Hence, it was a sin for the Jews living 100 years ago to not take the initiative and make a serious effort to occupy Israel.  Now that this has basically been accomplished and we have a good presence, our own nation and an army, I believe that it is not obligatory for every Jew to go there, even though the entire land is not conquered, since that is the government's fault as they could easily do it.    But don't necessarily trust my opinion.

[Lubab]

"Every nation must have an army to protect it's borders. And every nation must fight enemies to survive."

Yes. But not in the times of Moshiach they don't. At that time swords will be beaten into plowshares and the lion will lie with the wolf (an analogy referring to the Jewish people and their enemies according to the Rambam). Do we have that now? Clearly not.

"I hope that you don't consider his reign Galuth, lubab. Because you will have a hard time explaining why we say "Chadesh Yamenu KiQedem" concerning his reign. I hope we are not trying to return the days of Galuth upon ourselves. Are we, lubab?"

There are degrees of Galut and Geulah.  And in many ways we were closer to Geulah then because we had true Torah leadership and the Beit Hamikdosh etc. But we were not at the complete and final redemption that the Rambam is referring to.

We are saying Chadesh Yameinu Kekedem because we are wishing that the reign of the Kingdom of David and the Holy Temple will return.

But that is a differnet issue than the question of whether the times of King David meet the definition of what the Rambam has in mind in Hilchos Melachim. It seems clear to me that it does not, because the Rambam is referring to a state of the world in which we no longer need to fight to survive. This much seems obvious to me from a simple reading the halacha. The Rambam says there that there must be world peace.

And yes every Jew could be in Israel and be in complete Galut. If a Torah government is not in control then it is a Galut in the political sense-and certainly in the spiritual sense. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out the spiritual benefits of Geulah. The Rambam in Mishne Torah does not focus on it heavily (though he does end the sefer talking about it) because it is a halacha sefer e.g. he tells you how to put on tefillin, he doesn't go into the inner meaning and spiritual significance of tefillin because that is not the point of the sefer. But to shun any mention of the spiritual benefits of Moshiach goes against loads of statements from Talmud and Midrash which do speak of and emphasize these matters. To limit Geulah to only it's physical benefits as if that's all it is is also a grave mistake. You must emphasize both aspects as they complement eachother, not just one.

I don't have audio on my computer right now so I can't hear the shiur. 

[judeanoncapta]

I would like to know how Chaim stands on our disagreement.

Now that you're here on this forum, Chaim. Would you like to chime in?