Date Rape

[Daniel]

I don't think you can really compare date rape to stranger rape when it comes to which one is worse. There are different issues attached to both of them. Most rapes are acquaintance rapes, the victims knows her attacker. It's very rare for a stranger rape to occur. However, I dated a girl who was a victim of a stranger rape. Someone who is the victim of an acquaintance rape may feel very uncomfortable being alone with someone or trusting someone in a future relationship. With my previous gf, she didn't have any problems trusting me or being alone or getting intimate with me. However, she felt very uncomfortable being in very public or crowded places. She feels extremely uncomfortable riding on the Railroad and will never ride on a subway again.

Rape is an absolutely horrific and traumatic crime, not only for the victim, but for everyone who is close to and who cares about the victim. There are different issues surrounding both acquaintance rape and stranger rape. But there is no way that you can classify one as being worse than the other. It would be false and also demeaning to victims on both ends to make such a claim that one is worse than the other.

[newman]

If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.

That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon.

COMPLETELY untrue?

A man is going to have a REALLY hard time engaging in sex and holding a weapon threateningly at the same time.

I don't know how much you know about men and sex, but when a man is having sex, he is incapable of doing or thinking about much else.

The scenario that you speak of only happens in Fantasyland.

Umm, Fantasyland? I dated a girl who was attacked in the basement of her apartment building with a knife. He dragged her to an isolated place in the basement, held a knife up to her face the entire time, and managed to penetrate her mouth, vagina, and anus! Because he was holding a knife up to her face and neck the entire time, of course she wasn't phyically resisting. So does this make this any less of an authentic rape because of this?

So this "Fantasyland" you talk about was extremely REAL!

Remember, rape is an act of violence, power, and control!

That's not the scenario we are talking about.

In her case, there would be bruises from the dragging, drag/scuff marks in the basement as well as traces of body fluid, hair etc on the basement floor. Secondly, it is NOT common to have consentual sex in a basement, so the victim would be more believable despite a lack of apparent injury.

The scenario of which we speak is this:

1/ The victim knew her attacker

2/ The victim had some form of friendship/relationship with the attacker.

3/ The victim volluntarily had physical contact with the attacker prior to the attack

4/ NO signs of force, trauma or bruising

[Daniel]

If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.

That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon.

COMPLETELY untrue?

A man is going to have a REALLY hard time engaging in sex and holding a weapon threateningly at the same time.

I don't know how much you know about men and sex, but when a man is having sex, he is incapable of doing or thinking about much else.

The scenario that you speak of only happens in Fantasyland.

Umm, Fantasyland? I dated a girl who was attacked in the basement of her apartment building with a knife. He dragged her to an isolated place in the basement, held a knife up to her face the entire time, and managed to penetrate her mouth, vagina, and anus! Because he was holding a knife up to her face and neck the entire time, of course she wasn't phyically resisting. So does this make this any less of an authentic rape because of this?

So this "Fantasyland" you talk about was extremely REAL!

Remember, rape is an act of violence, power, and control!

That's not the scenario we are talking about.

In her case, there would be bruises from the dragging, drag/scuff marks in the basement as well as traces of body fluid, hair etc on the basement floor. Secondly, it is NOT common to have consentual sex in a basement, so the victim would be more believable despite a lack of apparent injury.

The scenario of which we speak is this:

1/ The victim knew her attacker

2/ The victim had some form of friendship/relationship with the attacker.

3/ The victim volluntarily had physical contact with the attacker prior to the attack

4/ NO signs of force, trauma or bruising

I understand what you're saying. But even in the cases of acquantance rape, it's possible that there may be no signs of force, trauma, or bruising, but if a girl says "no" and the guy still forces himself on her against her will (or vica versa), then it is still just as much of a rape then if there were physical signs of a struggle.

[newman]

If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.

That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon.

COMPLETELY untrue?

A man is going to have a REALLY hard time engaging in sex and holding a weapon threateningly at the same time.

I don't know how much you know about men and sex, but when a man is having sex, he is incapable of doing or thinking about much else.

The scenario that you speak of only happens in Fantasyland.

Umm, Fantasyland? I dated a girl who was attacked in the basement of her apartment building with a knife. He dragged her to an isolated place in the basement, held a knife up to her face the entire time, and managed to penetrate her mouth, vagina, and anus! Because he was holding a knife up to her face and neck the entire time, of course she wasn't phyically resisting. So does this make this any less of an authentic rape because of this?

So this "Fantasyland" you talk about was extremely REAL!

Remember, rape is an act of violence, power, and control!

That's not the scenario we are talking about.

In her case, there would be bruises from the dragging, drag/scuff marks in the basement as well as traces of body fluid, hair etc on the basement floor. Secondly, it is NOT common to have consentual sex in a basement, so the victim would be more believable despite a lack of apparent injury.

The scenario of which we speak is this:

1/ The victim knew her attacker

2/ The victim had some form of friendship/relationship with the attacker.

3/ The victim volluntarily had physical contact with the attacker prior to the attack

4/ NO signs of force, trauma or bruising

I understand what you're saying. But even in the cases of acquantance rape, it's possible that there may be no signs of force, trauma, or bruising, but if a girl says "no" and the guy still forces himself on her against her will (or vica versa), then it is still just as much of a rape then if there were physical signs of a struggle.

I totally agree. The attacker has 100% culpability.

I was just saying that it's going to be harder to convict him and with good reason.

[Daniel]

If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.

That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon.

COMPLETELY untrue?

A man is going to have a REALLY hard time engaging in sex and holding a weapon threateningly at the same time.

I don't know how much you know about men and sex, but when a man is having sex, he is incapable of doing or thinking about much else.

The scenario that you speak of only happens in Fantasyland.

Umm, Fantasyland? I dated a girl who was attacked in the basement of her apartment building with a knife. He dragged her to an isolated place in the basement, held a knife up to her face the entire time, and managed to penetrate her mouth, vagina, and anus! Because he was holding a knife up to her face and neck the entire time, of course she wasn't phyically resisting. So does this make this any less of an authentic rape because of this?

So this "Fantasyland" you talk about was extremely REAL!

Remember, rape is an act of violence, power, and control!

That's not the scenario we are talking about.

In her case, there would be bruises from the dragging, drag/scuff marks in the basement as well as traces of body fluid, hair etc on the basement floor. Secondly, it is NOT common to have consentual sex in a basement, so the victim would be more believable despite a lack of apparent injury.

The scenario of which we speak is this:

1/ The victim knew her attacker

2/ The victim had some form of friendship/relationship with the attacker.

3/ The victim volluntarily had physical contact with the attacker prior to the attack

4/ NO signs of force, trauma or bruising

I understand what you're saying. But even in the cases of acquantance rape, it's possible that there may be no signs of force, trauma, or bruising, but if a girl says "no" and the guy still forces himself on her against her will (or vica versa), then it is still just as much of a rape then if there were physical signs of a struggle.

I totally agree. The attacker has 100% culpability.

I was just saying that it's going to be harder to convict him and with good reason.

Yes, that I agree with. It's still just as much of a rape. But at trial, it will be much harder to sustain a convition.

[Mstislav]

i'm sad to say but it depends on the circumstances..but we have to define what we mean by date rape versus other rape.

I know that Shomer Negia is an Orthodox Jewish principle, so if all Jews were to act on that principle, any rape would be rape and there would be no gray areas like we have in today's society..since technically sex can only take place between a husband and wife and not pre-martially or extra-maritally (Gd forbid).

Do all orthodox Jews follow shomer negia?

[Mstislav]

It depends on the circumstances although I think stranger rapes are generally worse than "date-rapes".  First of all, if a woman is on a date with someone, chances are that she is at least somewhat interested in that person, not necessarily for sex, but at least interested in some way.  This is opposed to a woman being raped by a stranger that she doesn't know, and has no interest in.  Stranger or forced rapes are generally more violent than date rapes.  Some stranger rapes, the woman is assaulted with a weapon, or is intimidated by a group of men with the rapist, which is a much more fearful and violent rape.  Date-rape can be just as violent, but generally it is not as violent as stranger rapes, especially when weapons are used.  Women who have been date-raped, have at least done something that led to the rape.  But for trusting a man into her house, but for getting drunk with him, but for trusting him, but for acting flirtatious, but for teasing him, but for many other things.  That's not to say that she deserves it or "brought it on herself" G-d forbid, but her actions lead more to the rape than in most cases of stranger rape like if a girl gets nabbed off the street and raped. 

How the woman acts is not the issue, the problem is with the male. The male intends to slip something into a woman's drink to make her pass out. The male intends to take advantage of the woman after she passes out from too much drinking.

[Kiwi]

For any man who has too have a half dead woman to have sex with has massive problems. 

[Mstislav]

For any man who has too have a half dead woman to have sex with has massive problems. 

Yeah, and it is too bad he has to pass it on to others.

[Kiwi]

For any man who has too have a half dead woman to have sex with has massive problems. 

Yeah, and it is too bad he has to pass it on to others.

Too many men think its a right. Thats where these males are never men, just brainless boys.

A man knows how to treat a woman, and rape is totally unforgivable no matter what.

Afterall G-d did give you a hand for a reason.

[newman]

For any man who has too have a half dead woman to have sex with has massive problems. 

Maybe they want a traditional protestant woman of the 1940s who just lays there.

[Kiwi]

For any man who has too have a half dead woman to have sex with has massive problems. 

Maybe they want a traditional protestant woman of the 1940s who just lays there.

Wheres the fun in that 

[Dr. Dan]

I picked yes. Rape is rape no matter if its done by your boyfriend, partner, husband or stranger.

And Yacov they are men that get raped, its not just a female thing.

There is a name for a man who gets raped by a woman...."Lucky!"

not if he was a virgin and wanted to save it for someone special.

[Dr. Dan]

i'm sad to say but it depends on the circumstances..but we have to define what we mean by date rape versus other rape.

I know that Shomer Negia is an Orthodox Jewish principle, so if all Jews were to act on that principle, any rape would be rape and there would be no gray areas like we have in today's society..since technically sex can only take place between a husband and wife and not pre-martially or extra-maritally (Gd forbid).

Do all orthodox Jews follow shomer negia?

No...

[Mstislav]

I picked yes. Rape is rape no matter if its done by your boyfriend, partner, husband or stranger.

And Yacov they are men that get raped, its not just a female thing.

There is a name for a man who gets raped by a woman...."Lucky!"

not if he was a virgin and wanted to save it for someone special.

[Mstislav]

i'm sad to say but it depends on the circumstances..but we have to define what we mean by date rape versus other rape.

I know that Shomer Negia is an Orthodox Jewish principle, so if all Jews were to act on that principle, any rape would be rape and there would be no gray areas like we have in today's society..since technically sex can only take place between a husband and wife and not pre-martially or extra-maritally (Gd forbid).

Do all orthodox Jews follow shomer negia?

No...

Thanks.