Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State

[judeanoncapta]

No, Ashkenazi Hebrew is not sooooo wrong and sefaradi hebrew soooo wrong.

I don`t know to whome you are referring your statement to. 

But since our sages, mainly, Rav Saadia Gaon but also Rabbi Yaakov Emden, Rashi and the Ibn Ezra have been so kind as to explain to us how to pronounce hebrew, Why are we even having this discussion?

Just switch to the correct pronounciation. What's the problem?

And don't tell me, "I must continue doing whatever my father did."

That is a untenable position. Continuing a mistake just because your father did so ensures that nothing will ever be corrected.

That cannot be what G-d wants from us. Absolute fidelity to incorrect pronunciation.

it is difficult enough to switch from the Ivrit/modern hebrew/secular zionist  pronounciation taught in modern orthodox schools and many shuls. Into our father`s ashkenazi or Sefaradi pronounciation. 

But to change to a pronounciation that only Rabbi Bar Hayyim and his students know, that is just unfeasible.  And if he is so sure, then he should write an article that proves it beyond any doubt. Proving not just that neither ashkenazi nor Sefaradi can be right. But proving that his pronounciation is right.   And then that can be put to expert rabbis with different positions, and we can see the arguments against. And then we can decide what is correct.

First of all, he already wrote such an article. It was on his previous website. Torahlight.com but he shut down that site and did not carry the article over to machon shilo.

But I would suggest that you read the perush of Rabbi Saadia Gaon to the Sefer Yetzirah in which he says that hebrew and arabic are identical except for the fact that Hebrew has no J sound, no palatial D and no Palatial DH and Arabic has no P, no G and no V.

Otherwise the consonants are identical.

Therefore let's take a look and the Hebrew and Arab Alphabets so that we figure out the identical letters.

The most common Abjad sequence is (from left to right):

أ‎ ب‎ ج‎ د‎ ﻫ‎ و‎ ز‎ ح‎ ط‎ ي‎ ك‎ ل‎ م‎ ن‎ س‎ ع‎ ف‎ ص‎ ق‎ ر‎ ش‎ ت‎ ث‎ خ‎ ذ‎ ض‎ ظ‎ غ‎
This is pretty much identical to the sequence in Hebrew alphabet but the Alphabet that is completely identical to the Hebrew Alphabet is the Aramaic Alphabet. Take alook.

Letter name Letter form Equivalent Hebrew Sound value
Ālaph 
Bēth 
Gāmal
Dālath 
Hē 
Waw 
Zain 
Hēth 
Tēth 
Yudh 
Kāph 
Lāmadh   
Mim   
Nun 
Semkath 
‘Ē 
Pē 
Sādhē
Qoph 
Rēsh 
Shin 
Tau 

As any of you can see this is identical to Hebrew.

After all, Part of the Tanakh was written in Aramaic so an identical alphabet makes perfect sense.

So the matter is actually quite simple. Listen to an Arabic or Aramaic speaker pronounce a Sadi and you will see how to pronounce it.

This is quite simple. The correct way to pronounce the consonants is well known.

The vowels are a little harder, but knowable.

Every single Jewish community pronounces a Hiriq and a Shva and Patah and a Shubuk the same.

I am choosing to not including the Polish and Hungarian for consideration because it so wildly incorrect.

The only vowels that are contested are segol, tsere, Kametz and Holem.

Rabbi Yaakov Emden says clearly that Sefardim are incorrect in pronouncing a Kametz and a Patah and in pronouncing a Tsere and a segol the same so the question is how do these nekudot differ.

Are the ashkenazim correct in pronouncing a tzere and ay?

Of course not. How why in the world would a yudh be continually added to words whose nikud is a tzere. It makes no sense. The yudh would be redundant if you are supposed to pronounce it as an ay. the Same goes for the CHoylem that ashkenazim say oy instead of  o. It make no sense. One can safely say that tzere and holem should be pronounced the way sefaradim do.

Therefore, how is a segol different from a tzere?

Rashi calls a segol a patah katan. a small A sound.

Therefore the yementie way of prouncing segol like the a in rat cat bad and mad makes perfect sense and should be followed.

Now the Kametz. Well, we know that it must be different from a patah and the yemenite and ashkenazi kametz is the same so we should pronounce it like the a in father.

[q_q_]

well.. your explanation seems logical.  I did see his article on his old torahlight site.  It was probably less detailed than your post.. Your post is v good.   I am unimpressed that his site came down(that domain is now a jews for jesus site), and his other site with his shiurim came down too, before then.    I don`t like the design of his machonshilo site either - too modern/snazzy..

Regarding the Taf with a dot.  Do you give it a generic name with or without a dot? or 2 different names?

<Judea>The letter Taf that you refer to should actually be pronounced Taw and without a dot it
<Judea>should pronounced "TH" like BaTH.


When you say Taw/Tau, do you mean as in ouch?


Looking at T with dot.

Gen 1:24  Tohtzay haaretz
with Tohtzay, the "Taw" is in the beginning.
It is followed by a vav acting as a silent vowel-letter, it has a cholem on it.

How do you pronounce the first syllable?

starts with t, then

ou as in ouch(like couch) ,
O (like boris),
?

How about
Gen 16:32
HeAchaltee

How are you pronouncing that - the tee part?
T with dot, followed by yud with chirik

Do you pronounce it the same, or does it get some kind of "ow" sound ?

----------------
I wonder if maybe we should start a new thread for this? 

Are you willing to detail further how to pronounce it, in the sense of how it differs from ivrit or ashkenazi ? It looks like quite a job..

If I can understand it, I will happily explain to others how you and rabbi bar hayyim pronounce it.. with some posts on usenet too, so it is archived properly(one trusts Google`s usenet archive!).

I know I said vav instead of waw, but that is because I was asking about the taf/taw specifically..

And regearding the T without a dot. When you say Bath. Do you mean like somebody with a lisp trying to say The.   A better example.. the word Thermal.  So the Th is softer than the word The.

So, Gen 1:2.   Tohu VaVohu  , the Tohu is actually   Thohu where the Th is as in Thermal ?


thanks

[judeanoncapta]

well.. your explanation seems logical.  I did see his article on his old torahlight site.  It was probably less detailed than your post.. Your post is v good.   I am unimpressed that his site came down(that domain is now a jews for jesus site), and his other site with his shiurim came down too, before then.    I don`t like the design of his machonshilo site either - too modern/snazzy..

Regarding the Taf with a dot.  Do you give it a generic name with or without a dot? or 2 different names?

<Judea>The letter Taf that you refer to should actually be pronounced Taw and without a dot it
<Judea>should pronounced "TH" like BaTH.


When you say Taw/Tau, do you mean as in ouch?


Looking at T with dot.

Gen 1:24  Tohtzay haaretz
with Tohtzay, the "Taw" is in the beginning.
It is followed by a vav acting as a silent vowel-letter, it has a cholem on it.

How do you pronounce the first syllable?

starts with t, then

ou as in ouch(like couch) ,
O (like boris),
?

How about
Gen 16:32
HeAchaltee

How are you pronouncing that - the tee part?
T with dot, followed by yud with chirik

Do you pronounce it the same, or does it get some kind of "ow" sound ?

----------------
I wonder if maybe we should start a new thread for this? 

Are you willing to detail further how to pronounce it, in the sense of how it differs from ivrit or ashkenazi ? It looks like quite a job..

If I can understand it, I will happily explain to others how you and rabbi bar hayyim pronounce it.. with some posts on usenet too, so it is archived properly(one trusts Google`s usenet archive!).

I know I said vav instead of waw, but that is because I was asking about the taf/taw specifically..

And regearding the T without a dot. When you say Bath. Do you mean like somebody with a lisp trying to say The.   A better example.. the word Thermal.  So the Th is softer than the word The.

So, Gen 1:2.   Tohu VaVohu  , the Tohu is actually   Thohu where the Th is as in Thermal ?


thanks

Great idea, I will start a new thread for pronunciation discussions right now.

[Dexter]

Judea, I disagree about the Sefaradim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefaradim who attend.

 Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefaradi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.

Tzvi, pretending that the country in the Galuth where your great grandfather or my grandfather used to live is the same as the Tribes of Israel does not make it so.

I'm Polish and Russian Ashkenazi and I would like both my Ashkenazi and your Sefaradi identity to disappear so that we can be one nation again. Not a bunch of confused people each continuing to define themselves and Ashkenazi and Sefaradi and opposed to our true identity. Yehudhi.

That is our only identity.

 Yehudhi.

Give up the Galuth, Tzvi.

It's not good for you.

I think it will happen naturally, the forced melting pot in Israel made problems and problems and problems.

[KansasJew]

What gets me is why would anyone in Israel wish to have a furnace to burn a body to ash. Can you say "Do you remember?"

Again I am currently studying under a Rabbi out of Israel. He has some very interesting ideas and thoughts as to why many Jewish people have become secular. I may share these on a later post.