Are catholics rightous gentiles??????

[newman]

As for righteous gentiles, I'm not sure what Judaism or certain branches of Christianity teach, but the righteousness I have is a gift from G-d and not any innate righteousness.  I'm am a sinner worthy of G-d's judgment, but forgiven by grace. 

That grace thing must be handy. You could rape every cheerleader you fancied and you're automatically forgiven. Sure beats the heck out of obeying G_d's laws.

Only someone who misunderstands grace would say that.  If you are truly transformed by the power of G-d you will want to obey G-d's law.  That's a very slanderous thing to say.  G-d is no fool, just because someone says they had a religious experience with Yeshua doesn't make it so.  If they continue in sin they are phonies and I wouldn't give half a hallelujah for their so-called salvation. 

So belief makes one lead a sinless life and the guarantee of forgiveness through belief in yeshu is a crock?

[Dr. Dan]

some catholics are righteous gentiles..some are evil...but it's not becuase of catholicism necessarily...

Some Jews are righteous..some are evil...and it's not because of Judaism

shall I continue?

You make a very good point.

Some who doesn't know JTF might counter argue..."what about Islam?"
They might say, "Some muslims are righteous while others are evil...so therefore it's not the Koran.."

But when we read the Koran, we know it is delibrately evil...The Christian bible isn't...I have heard there are some chapters that are very anti-Jewish...However, and correct me if i'm wrong, a lot of religious Christians have refuted some of those things as evil against the Jews and very unChristian..am I right?  Muslims have not done that excpet maybe Salman Rushdie.

[shimon]

the catholics of the middle ages were as fanatic as the muslims today. i personally dont really like the religion because they have to listen to everything the pope tells them and if they dont they are heritics

[Electra]

Hmmm,

I am not familiar with the way Catholicism developed through the history, but wasn't there at some point strong Antisemitism present?

As for Islam, Muhammad made ideology which would help him conquer the world. Islam is not even a religion. Its a political, social and military system. Like Fascism. He savagely expelled/killed/forcefully converted the Jews that lived in Arabian peninsula...2000 odd years before he came along.
I feel muslims are brainwashed with hate for Jews and Christians. And I feel more so for Jews than Christians.

[Lisa]

May I remind you all that we are here to work together despite our differences.  Everyone believes his/her religion to be the correct path.  And I don't want to continue with this Catholic bashing.  That is not the purpose of this forum. 

[JTFFan]

some catholics are righteous gentiles..some are evil...but it's not becuase of catholicism necessarily...

Some Jews are righteous..some are evil...and it's not because of Judaism

shall I continue?

That's true, but you can't say that about iSSlam,  unless you deny Allah, the KKKoran, and iSSlam

[newman]

May I remind you all that we are here to work together despite our differences.  Everyone believes his/her religion to be the correct path.  And I don't want to continue with this Catholic bashing.  That is not the purpose of this forum. 

Highlighting the evil of the Vatican is NOT catholic bashing any more than criticising the Bush administration is bashing Americans. If we can attack politicians and journalists who are anti-semitic we should be able to do the same with church leaders. Truly righteous catholics should join in the criticism or they're not righteous.

[yeshuadisciple]

As for righteous gentiles, I'm not sure what Judaism or certain branches of Christianity teach, but the righteousness I have is a gift from G-d and not any innate righteousness.  I'm am a sinner worthy of G-d's judgment, but forgiven by grace. 

That grace thing must be handy. You could rape every cheerleader you fancied and you're automatically forgiven. Sure beats the heck out of obeying G_d's laws.

Only someone who misunderstands grace would say that.  If you are truly transformed by the power of G-d you will want to obey G-d's law.  That's a very slanderous thing to say.  G-d is no fool, just because someone says they had a religious experience with Yeshua doesn't make it so.  If they continue in sin they are phonies and I wouldn't give half a hallelujah for their so-called salvation. 

So belief makes one lead a sinless life and the guarantee of forgiveness through belief in yeshu is a crock?

Did I say a sinless life, that's impossible, if it were I could just follow the law and justify myself.  David slept with Bathsheba and had her husband Uriah the Hittite murdered and yet the Bible says David was a man after God's own heart.   David repented and received grace.  If he hadn't received the grace of God he would have been killed by God on the spot and sent straight to hell.  Every breath you draw after you have sinned is the grace of God.  Sin would equal immediate execution by God if not for grace.

The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Sin equals death.  Doing good deeds doesn't make you any less dead physically or spiritually.   

[newman]

As for righteous gentiles, I'm not sure what Judaism or certain branches of Christianity teach, but the righteousness I have is a gift from G-d and not any innate righteousness.  I'm am a sinner worthy of G-d's judgment, but forgiven by grace. 

That grace thing must be handy. You could rape every cheerleader you fancied and you're automatically forgiven. Sure beats the heck out of obeying G_d's laws.

Only someone who misunderstands grace would say that.  If you are truly transformed by the power of G-d you will want to obey G-d's law.  That's a very slanderous thing to say.  G-d is no fool, just because someone says they had a religious experience with Yeshua doesn't make it so.  If they continue in sin they are phonies and I wouldn't give half a hallelujah for their so-called salvation. 

So belief makes one lead a sinless life and the guarantee of forgiveness through belief in yeshu is a crock?

Did I say a sinless life, that's impossible, if it were I could just follow the law and justify myself.  David slept with Bathsheba and had her husband Uriah the Hittite murdered and yet the Bible says David was a man after G-d's own heart.   David repented and received grace.  If he hadn't received the grace of G-d he would have been killed by G-d on the spot and sent straight to hell.  Every breath you draw after you have sinned is the grace of G-d.  Sin would equal immediate execution by G-d if not for grace.

The LORD G-d took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD G-d commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Sin equals death.  Doing good deeds doesn't make you any less dead physically or spiritually.   

]
So you admit nobody needs yeshu to get grace.

[Lisa]

Newman, as long as we stick to the facts, and say that we disagree with certain position of the Vatican or past popes, that's one thing.  But as non-Cathloics, it's not our place to tell Catholics what teachings they should or should not reject to be righteous. 

As another example, I think Jews would get offended if non-Jews told us which parts of our oral law we should keep or ditch.  It works both ways.  That's why I don't like where this thread is heading. 

Right now, the biggest enemy in the West are the moosie terrorists.  So let's keep our focus where it belongs.   

[newman]

Newman, as long as we stick to the facts, and say that we disagree with certain position of the Vatican or past popes, that's one thing.  But as non-Cathloics, it's not our place to tell Catholics what teachings they should or should not reject to be righteous. 

As another example, I think Jews would get offended if non-Jews told us which parts of our oral law we should keep or ditch.  It works both ways.  That's why I don't like where this thread is heading. 

Right now, the biggest enemy in the West are the moosie terrorists.  So let's keep our focus where it belongs.   

It does not work both ways. Religions are not equal. If the vatican maintains that it's followers are to believe their church has displaced Jews as the chosen people it is our duty to say it's wrong.

Other beliefs are subordinate to Judaism here.

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

1- The Catholic Church has formally abandoned anti-Semitism in 1965. Some leaders may still be unfair to Jews. But a person can be a memeber of the Catholic Church and fully observant, and be a good person. However they can't be considered Hallachically righteous unless they add some rules to their lives that Catholicism lacks. A Catholic is not forbidden by the Church to eat a limb from a live animal, or blood taken from and animal before it died. So, if a Catholic keeps these laws by himself he can become righteous, if not, only a good person who is Hallachically wrong.

2- Muslims do not have a proper institution. Any person who respects Israel and fully rejects violence can be righteous even if the Koran has violent verses. If someone interprets the violent verses in another way sincerely, or simply rejects those verses he is ok. No matter if the Koran is violent or not. Abstaining from alcohol and women being covered is ok. The NT was perhaps written with anti-Semitic intentions also, but a Christian who loves the Jews and doesn't try to convert them is a good person (And Hallachically Righteous if he does the 7 mitzvot)

Mohammed based his claim on an accusation that Jews had corrupted the Torah and that's why he was chosen by G-d to deliver a new Torah (Qur'an).

This is the first and major problem with Qur'an, Islam, and Muslims.

And thus to start on the path of becoming righteous Gentile, people who were born into a muslim family have to reject Mohammed as a prophet and accept him as a liar.

[cjd]

the catholics of the middle ages were as fanatic as the muslims today. i personally dont really like the religion because they have to listen to everything the pope tells them and if they dont they are heritics

The middle ages was a long time ago. Even then I don't think Catholics were as fanatic as muslims today. Most Catholic churches today are very supportive of the Jewish religion. Some of the post here today seem like some good old Catholic bashing. 

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

Newman, as long as we stick to the facts, and say that we disagree with certain position of the Vatican or past popes, that's one thing.  But as non-Cathloics, it's not our place to tell Catholics what teachings they should or should not reject to be righteous. 

As another example, I think Jews would get offended if non-Jews told us which parts of our oral law we should keep or ditch.  It works both ways.  That's why I don't like where this thread is heading.

Right now, the biggest enemy in the West are the moosie terrorists.  So let's keep our focus where it belongs.   

Not all parts of Oral Law are divine revealation. Jews can accept comments from non-Jews who are Noachides, or those who believe in Torah as the first and last Covenant.

[Lisa]

Another point I would like to emphasize is that Judaism focuses more on good deeds rather than faith.  And our Catholic members have been very helpful to us.  So I see no reason to start up a witch hunt. 

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

Newman, as long as we stick to the facts, and say that we disagree with certain position of the Vatican or past popes, that's one thing.  But as non-Cathloics, it's not our place to tell Catholics what teachings they should or should not reject to be righteous. 

As another example, I think Jews would get offended if non-Jews told us which parts of our oral law we should keep or ditch.  It works both ways.  That's why I don't like where this thread is heading.

Right now, the biggest enemy in the West are the moosie terrorists.  So let's keep our focus where it belongs.   

Not all parts of Oral Law are divine revealation. Jews can accept comments from non-Jews who are Noachides, or those who believe in Torah as the first and last Covenant.

Also, Jews are supposed to be a light unto the nations, and thus it is our obligations to teach. Plus, having so many facts on our hands, it is quite simple.

[Lisa]

Also, Jews are supposed to be a light unto the nations, and thus it is our obligations to teach. Plus, having so many facts on our hands, it is quite simple.

Fine, but we should do with kindness.  Not by attacking.  And we should set an example by how we live our lives and how we treat others. 

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

I am a baptist christan from the uk. Chaim says that all decent people are gentiles. Now i know there are decent catholics who are pro israel. But its the catholic organization which is extremely anti semitic  hence why you get morons like mel gibson, and my cousin who is pro Eretz Yisrael nazis as far as i am concerned.

To me catholocism is slightly less worse than islam, it was the catholics which started the mosque of islam, it was the pope that is a nazi member currently, it was the pope before him that actually kissed the quran the scum bag. As chaim exposed it was the catholics who hated the jews, but passed a bill so that they were not completely wiped out due to ancestrial evidence of the bible.

Im sure chaim fan has the same opinion of me, but i cant believe we welcome catholics,imo thats like welcoming a nazi member whos pro israel...

Catholics, unlike Muslims, have a very favorable capability to be flexible about their faith. Their religion is in fact called Catholic Christianity.

That is, you can always cast away Catholic part of it and you will still be Christian with their belief in love and mercy.

With Muslims, there is a different situation. The division into Sunnis and Shiites make one no less of Muslim with their belief in war and hatred.

[ftf]

Newman, stop the Christian bashing.

[newman]

Newman, stop the Christian bashing.

Eat shiite and bark at the moon!

[ftf]

Newman, stop the Christian bashing.

Eat shiite and bark at the moon!

Er, no thank you, I am no dog.

[Lisa]

OK since this discussion has degenerated to name calling, I am locking this thread for the time being.