Unfortunately I was away this weekend and could not comment on the recent post "Are Catholics righteous gentiles?" I understand that it has been locked, however given the nonsense and anti-Catholic hysteria posted, along with the fact that no Catholic members of the forum bothered to refute I feel compelled to reply.
First of all I am very disappointed to see such posts on this forum. We all know, understand, and respect the policy regarding Christians using religious discussions to try and convert Jews and I think that it is unfair that some Protestants are allowed to use this forum to bash the Catholic Church in order to steer us away from our Church. I have not seen Catholics coming on here bashing Protestant theology and I actually wonder if some of the posters are deliberately trying to sabotage JTF by trying to divide righteous Christians against one another.
Current pope more like, we all know the current pope was linked to the nazis, how can the "wonderful" catholic members defend that please, since they believe the pope has a twoway convo with G-d.
The current Pope as everyone knows is from Germany and at age 14, along with every other boy in Germany at the time, was compelled to join the Hitler Youth. Ratzingers family hated the Nazi's, his father was a vocal critic of the Nazi's because he believed, like John Paul II and many many others, that it conflicted with Catholic teachings. The family also hated the Nazi's because Ratzinger's 14 year old cousin who had downs syndrome had been murdered during the Nazi's eugenics campaign. Ratzinger refused to attend Hitler Youth meetings because they were held on Sundays and they conflicted with Church services- which was done deliberately by the Nazi's in order to get the youth to loose their Christian faith in favor of Nazi mysticism/paganism. Two years later he was drafted into the German air force, he saw no combat due to health reasons and as soon as the allies were near him abandoned his unit and soon became a priest. He is not now and never was a Nazi in any way, shape, or form. His only crime was being born in Germany in 1927.
People should try reading what the Pope has actually said about Judaism, Israel, and the Holocaust, as seen below, before calling him a Nazi. If Jews want to know what the Church believes and teaches about them they should read what Church doctrine and the Pope says, and not get their information from non-Catholics who don't like the Church for their own reasons. Notice how he does not try to convert the Jewish people...actually he praises them for NOT converting! And in the last paragraph out of respect he refers to Jesus, not as Christ, but as the historical Jesus of Narareth and just asks them just to have an understanding of him and his Church so as to avoid the sort of misunderstands between Catholics and Jews as shown in the other thread.
Abraham, father of the people of Israel, father of faith, thus become the source of blessing, for in him all the families of the earth shall call themselves blessed. The task of the Chosen People is, therefore, to make a gift of their God � the one true God � to every other people; in reality, as Christians we are the inheritors of their faith in the one God. Our gratitude, therefore, must be extended to our Jewish brothers and sisters who, despite the hardships of their own history, have held on to faith in this God right up to the present, and who witness to it in the sight of those peoples who, lacking knowledge of the one God, dwell in darkness and in the shadow of death.
Down through the history of Christianity, already-strained relations deteriorated further, even giving birth in many cases to anti-Jewish attitudes, which throughout history have led to deplorable acts of violence. Even if the most recent, loathsome experience of the Shoah was perpetrated in the name of an anti-Christian ideology, which tried to strike the Christian faith at its Abrahamic roots in the people of Israel it cannot be denied that a certain insufficient resistance to its atrocity on the part of Christians can be explained by an inherited anti-Judaism present in the hearts of not a few Christians.
Perhaps it is precisely because of this latest tragedy that a new vision of the relationship between the Church and Israel has been born: a sincere willingness to overcome every kind of anti-Judaism, and to initiate a constructive dialogue based on knowledge of each other, and on reconciliation. If such a dialogue is to be fruitful, it must begin with a prayer to our God, first of all that he might grant to us Christians a greater esteem and love for that people � the people of Israel � to whom belong the adoption as sons, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs are the patriarchs, and from them comes Christ according to the flesh, he who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen. And this not only in the past, but still today, for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. In the same way, let us pray that he may grant also to the children of Israel a deeper knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth, who is their son, and the gift they have made to us. Since we are both awaiting the final redemption, let us pray that the paths we follow may converge.
It is evident that, as Christians, our dialogue with the Jews is situated on a different level than that in which we engage with other religions. The faith witnessed to by the Jewish Bible (the Tanach for Christians) is not merely another religion to us, but is the foundation of our own faith. Therefore, Christians � and today increasingly in collaboration with their Jewish sisters and brothers � read and attentively study these books of Sacred Scripture, as a part of their common heritage.
No where does it say in any Church doctrine that the Pope has any conversations with God. He is not a prophet; he does not talk to God. Papal infallibility is not what most people think it is, it does not mean that the Pope is free from sin, error, or that Catholics have to believe in everything he says. What it does mean is that the Pope as leader of the Church is allowed to make decisions on the formal beliefs that the Church holds in accordance with Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Sacred Magisterium. This has happened ONCE, I repeat ONCE in history in 1950 when Pope Pious II declared the Assumption of Mary to be an infallible truth of the Churches teaching. One is allowed to disagree with the Pope and I still be a faithful Catholic, but you are required to comply with Church teaching as best you can and need to recognize that he is the head of the Catholic Church.
Pope John Paul supported the Croatian and Muslim separatist during the collapse of Yugoslavia.
Pope John Paul and the whole Vatican institute have never recognized the Croatian genocide against the Serbs in which the Croatian catholic church, with blessings from the Vatican, participated.
I agree with you. The Catholic Church has apologized numerous times for the crimes committed by some within the Church during WWII. It has especially singled out those crimes committed against the Jewish people and should do so in a similar way toward the Serb people.
History has shown John Paul II was wrong to recognize Croatian independence. John Paul II was a strong fighter against the evils of communism and did bring alot of good to this world. But unfortunately saw Yugoslavia as just another evil communist state, which is why he supported the Croatians and the breakup of Yugoslavia. He was mistaken and did not realize that Croatia had not been de-Nazified under the communist government.
However I think that it is wrong of you to judge all Catholics by these Croatian scum. The history of the Orthodox Church in Russia towards Jews isn’t all that great either now is it? Should I judge you and all other Orthodox Christians by the example of your brothers in Russia the way you try to judge all Catholics by Croatians?
the catholics of the middle ages were as fanatic as the muslims today.
How so? I assume that you are referring to the Spanish Inquisition? That was certainly a dark period in the Church that never should have happened but it is also one that seems to have been greatly exaggerated, it really was not the Holocaust that is has been made out to be. Of the tens of thousands charged with crimes few in terms of percentage were actually convicted, and very few of those convicted were actually killed by the authorities. For example St. Ignatius of Loyola was brought up on charges by the Inquisition well over a dozen times and was never convicted on any charge. Most historians put the figure of those killed (though of course many others received other punishments or were exiled) at under 5,000 over a period of over 300 years. I honestly do not mean to diminish these crimes by any means, they were people, many of them Jews, murdered needlessly but to compare them to the Muslims today is nonsense.
This is what Catholics did when they were in charge of the most powerful nation on Earth and could act as “fanatically” as they wished. What do you think the Muslims would do today if they were in a similar position of power?
Highlighting the evil of the Vatican is NOT catholic bashing any more than criticising the Bush administration is bashing Americans. If we can attack politicians and journalists who are anti-semitic we should be able to do the same with church leaders. Truly righteous catholics should join in the criticism or they're not righteous….
It does not work both ways. Religions are not equal. If the vatican maintains that it's followers are to believe their church has displaced Jews as the chosen people it is our duty to say it's wrong.
If you view the Vatican as an institution to be evil than yes you are bashing all Catholics. If you just disagree with a particular teaching or something that is different. You have apparently have nothing positive to say about Catholics other than that if they change their beliefs than they can be righteous so it does seem to be the former.
The Church does not say that it has replaced Jews as the Chosen People you are completely wrong. Just read quote I posted above the current Pope Benedict XVI where he calls the people of Israel
“the Chosen People” and "the people of Israel to whom belongs the adoption as sons, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises" The way we view our convent is seen in our mass when the Priest consecrates the host and wine he says: "This is my body, which will be given up for you. . . . This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all men so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me." This does not undo G-d’s covenant with Israel; we see it as new covenant that God has made with the Gentiles.
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is, of course, quite a different thing.~ Bishop Fulton Sheen
Topic: Catholic Gentiles (Read 843 times)