Yekutiel and HaIvri confusion

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Re:  "...Quote from: OdKahaneChai on November 28, 2007, 03:47:45 PM
Quote from: q_q_ on November 28, 2007, 03:37:24 AM
Quote from: jdl4ever on June 23, 2007, 11:00:02 PM
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Dear fellow JTF members,
I have followed with great interest this discussion between you, and must ask if one or all of you will please for my benefit define the different groupings within Judaism such as Hareidim, etc.
Only in recent years do I recall reading such differentiations among the Torah Jews, yet I have yet to find definitions of them which actually clarify the various posts I often find.

Charedi (at least today) means "Ultra-Orthodox."  Rabbi Kahane was "Charedi Leumi" (Religious Zionist).

Wasnt Rav Kahane Dati Leumi (national Religious).

[jdl4ever]

R' Kahane Zs'l doesn't perfectly fit into any category but his own since there was not one group that had his brilliant ideas and did the great accomplishments that he did.  In fact, 99% of the religious groups condemned him.  In my opinion, religiously speaking R' Kahane Zs'l was most similar to the Misnagdim.  He was not Charedi at all (in fact, I think he was anti-Charedi) as the JDL camp from '71 I see from the video was mixed boys and girls, the JDL actually took young Jews out of Yeshivah to fight for Soviet Jewry which was condemned by all the Charedi Yeshivas at that time in Brooklyn, he was pissed off at the Charedim for not learning any Prophets in the School but only Gemara and his speeches didn't have a Mechitzah in it among other non Charedi things like he told Jews to not follow Rabbis blindly etc. Nationally speaking he probably fits into the category of a "religious Zionist" or something along these lines. 

[q_q_]

Rav Steinsaltz is Rabbi, not Rav. And he is The Nasi of The Sanhedrin, in effect the leader of The Jewish People. Nowadays people use rabbi to refer to a rav in English but in correct Hebrew, rabbi only refers to a member of The Sanhedrin.

the friend said, to paraphrase

and I may have spelt hebrew very wrong, because I heard this in a voice chat

Rabbis nowadays, even the greatest, are "Rav Hedyon"(means like, simple rabbis) as oppose to "Rav Muvchak".

To sit on the sanhedrin, you must have knowledge of science, and many languages, as well as Torah.

Many rabbis on the "sanhedrin" are professors without smicha.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Again, I must respectfully ask of fellow forum members to define what it is that distinguishes Orthodox vs Ultra-Orthodox vs Shas vs Hareidim vs.....

In other words, which are the doctrinal points of disagreement between each of these groupings?

When did these groups realize that there was a dispute over beliefs and doctrine with their fellow Jews?

Who, if anyone, was their founder?

When and where did they live?

Over which specific Torah or Talmudic teaching do they find disagreement with each other?

There are the questions which remain unanswered.

To merely label a group "Ultra-Orthodox" is not a starting point for explanation.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Its all one Torah, not like the difference between catholics and protestants, or sunnies and Shiites. But ultra.. I believe was labeled by the state for people who observe the Torah, oppose the state and dress funny (according to secular standards). The rest is all politics and political groups, etc.

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

Again, I must respectfully ask of fellow forum members to define what it is that distinguishes Orthodox vs Ultra-Orthodox vs Shas vs Hareidim vs.....

In other words, which are the doctrinal points of disagreement between each of these groupings?

When did these groups realize that there was a dispute over beliefs and doctrine with their fellow Jews?

Who, if anyone, was their founder?

When and where did they live?

Over which specific Torah or Talmudic teaching do they find disagreement with each other?

There are the questions which remain unanswered.

To merely label a group "Ultra-Orthodox" is not a starting point for explanation.

Shas is a political party for Sephardim mainly.

[MarZutra]

MassuhD, Do you mean the differences between Hassidim/Hereidim and "Orthodox" Judaism/Jewry?  From what I've read the terms "Orthodox" and "Ultra-Othodox" are relatively recent titles granted by the Deformed "Jewish" movement with purpose of creating division of Jewry.  The titles are, from what i've read, probably 100 or so years old. 

The Hassidim/Hereidim movements started with Yisrael Ben Eliezer, later known as The Baal Shem Tov (The Master of the Good Name).  I believe he lived around the same time, or very shortly after, Sabbatai Zevi.  The "Ultra" "Orthodox" sects, then, from my readings were more into Kabbalah: Jewish mysticism for which Rabbi Eliyahu ben Shlomo Zalman, later to be known as The Vilna Gaon excommunicated the Hereidim/Hassidim for which he fealt they had contorted the teachings of Torah with Mysticism in 1777..from my understanding.  Groups like the Lubavich learned from this "warning" in that they seemed to have returned to more Torah/Talmud Judaism over Kabbalah/Zohar etc. to assist in the confrontation of the "enlightened" Deformed "Jewish" movement of the day via: Moses Mendelssohn, Abraham Geiger and Dr. Max Lillianthal's work in Eastern Europe and Russia. 

Today, the Hassidim/Hereidim keep their respective "cultural" customs and honor Torah Judaism....albeit somewhat molested from a traditional/Vilna Gaon"ic" perspective...imo.  From what I've read, the Hassidim/Hereidim, have adopted a "Pope" like tradition, via their mysticism, in that they have this beleive that their "leader" is the messiah and communicates directly with HaShem on a mystical level.  I may well be far off and if I am, I'm open to other's views/ imput.

But with referance to the specific labels: "Ultra-Orthodox" which include Hassid and Hereidi are presented in a very good chapter in Dr./Rabbi Marvin Antelman's book "To Eliminate the Opiat" volume 1: "The Orthodox N gger".  I hope this helps brother...

[MassuhDGoodName]

Marzutra:  "...I hope this helps brother... "

My eternal gratitude, to a gentleman and a scholar!
-MassuhD

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Marzutra- nop. The students of the Vina Gaon are who are termed "Haredim" today. Haredim are Jews who keep the Torah strictly. Also about the Kabbalah and Zohar you should know that many of the Vina Gaon's writings did include commentaries and indepth study of the Zohar and Kabbalah. You can really say that the Vilna Gaon fought against the Hassidim becuase they believe in some of the teachings from the Zohar. Its like what chaim said once that the hassidim made new things like reincarnation and thats why the Vilna Gaon opposed them, but that cant be the truth since the Vina Gaon himself wrote about reincarnations (for example).
  What I believe to be the case is that the early Hassidim focused more on Praying then Talmud Torah, and thats what was the main division. There is also a concept of Tzaddikim fighting among themselves (theirs writing about this and why).

[jdl4ever]

I'll give you my controversial Misnagad viewpoint of the different religious groups, which will cause a lot of controversy when I write it.  Misnagdim or Modern Orthodox Jews as they are called today are religious Jews who are very into keeping the traditions of their fathers very strictly and not accepting any new traditions or Laws that didn't exist previously or change their traditions even a  little bit.  They are those didn't stray from the traditions of their parents grandparents and previous generations.  They didn't drop their traditions and join the Chassidism for example like my grandfather says was popular a while back and that's how Chassidism grew at the sacrifice of the traditions of Israel since Jews dropped their own traditions and replaced it with this new fad.  A few of the Misnagdim also don't accept the Kabalah of the Zohar because it was a forgery that was not a part of the ancient tradition but this is the minority.  The Misnagdim are also careful to not go to the left or to the right of what the Torah commands and resent the ultra Orthodox for making up things and going to the far right of what the Torah commands.  Misnagdim also tend to accept Rashi's opinion that the Torah does not veer from its simple meaning and don't make up crazy interpuitations of the Torah that are not based on a solid argument.  The Rambam was the prime example of a Misnagad.  The Misnagdim emphasise "Torah Im Derech Eretz" or Torah must exist with a worldly occupation so we tend to have full time jobs and support our families.  We are also very realistic like the Rambam and most Misnagdim serve in the Israeli army and think that science is compatable with the Torah.  The Misnagdim criticize the Chassidim for violating the Torah when it says to not go the right or to the left from what the Torah commands, criticize them for going against the ancient traditions of their ancestors and being "Poretz Geder", and being both uneducated in the written law and having a non rational way of thinking where things there Rabbis say are not backed up by solid Torah but many far out interpretations of the Talmud or the Medrish that frequently contradict the written Torah.  They also accuse them of misreading the commentators such as the Shulchan Aruch because they are not educated in the Torah since the Chassidim think something is a Rabbinic decree when it is simply a suggestion of the commentator. 

The Charedim consist of two groups.  The first are the Chassidim which unlike what Tzvi is saying, the Vilna Goan was vehemitely against Chassidism and ACTUALLY PUT THEM IN CHEREM and the ban has never been rescinded to this very day!  The second group are basically a group that never existed until the rise of Chassidism and they are a mix between Chassidism and Misnagadism like Chaim said.  The Charedim respect what their Rabbi says more than they respect the traditions of their parents and grandparents and have no qualms dropping their own traditions and taking on more right wing and stricter beliefs since their Rabbis tell them that they know better than their ancient traditions.  Note, they only go more to the right of their traditions.  If they happened to have a more right wing tradition than the Rebbe than the Rebbe would tell them to keep it since taking on more restrictions is worshiped. They also think that the ideal is to learn Torah all day and most of their Yeshivas tell the students to not work but simply learn all day and have the government support you.  If you do want to work for a living full time they call you a heretic and throw you out of their school.  They also tend to completely ignore the plain reading of the Torah and invent very far out interpruitations of the Torah that contradict the simple reading.  They also believe in a far out non logical way of thinking as these people don't go the army at least not most of them, and simply rely on G-d to support them and their children without working and it doesn't occur to them that they are sucking money out of more vital causes but answer you that G-d will take care of everything, plus the Charedim for the most part completely reject most of science as heresy.  Many Charedim also don't believe that Israel should have existed before Moshiach as well.  The Charedim criticize the Misnagdim for not being strict enough with the Torah and say that there is really no such thing as going too much to the right of what the Torah commands (as contradictory as this sounds) and the Misnagdim should follow them in going to the far right beyond what the Torah states.  They also criticize the Misnagdim for working and having a full time occupation, they think this is Bittul Torah and they tell the Misnagdim to drop their job and learn all day or at least half a day.  They also think the Misnagdim shouldn't believe in science since it is heresy.  And they don't like that the Misnagdim don't blindly accept their Rabbis as the Charedim do but they are annoyed at us for asking too many questions and actually asking the Rabbi to give solid Torah proof to what he is saying.  The Charedim don't ask too many questions.

[OdKahaneChai]

Jdl4ever - "Misnagdi" and "Modern Orthodox are two totally different things.  "Misnagdi" means an Orthodox (usually Charedi) Jew whos is not Chasidic.

[jdl4ever]

Jdl4ever - "Misnagdi" and "Modern Orthodox are two totally different things.  "Misnagdi" means an Orthodox (usually Charedi) Jew whos is not Chasidic.

Actually I disagree.  Nowadays the old time "Misnagdim" are no longer called "Misnagad" but are called "Modern Orthodox".  In the past there was a distinction between the two but nowadays there is not.  No one uses the term "Misnagad" any more but they all use "Modern Orthodox" to classify us.  Also the term "Charedi" changed.  From what I'm told it no longer refers to all religious Jews, but only Chassidik Jews and Yeshivish Black Hat Jews.  The non Chassidik non Yeshivish Black Hat Jews are not called Charedim any more, they are called "modern orthodox".

[OdKahaneChai]

Jdl4ever - "Misnagdi" and "Modern Orthodox are two totally different things.  "Misnagdi" means an Orthodox (usually Charedi) Jew whos is not Chasidic.

Actually I disagree.  Nowadays the old time "Misnagdim" are no longer called "Misnagad" but are called "Modern Orthodox".  In the past there was a distinction between the two but nowadays there is not.  No one uses the term "Misnagad" any more but they all use "Modern Orthodox" to classify us.

The Vilna Gaon was Misnagdi, and he certainly wasn't "Modern Orthodox."

[jdl4ever]

Look, I'm not the one who invented these modern terms, they are just what everyone uses today like it or not.  Personally I find the name "modern orthodox" offensive since it implies that you combined orthodoxy with new secular things that didn't exist in your tradition and there was no such name until recently.  However, no one except myself uses the term "Misnagad" any more but everyone calls the Misnagdim "Modern Orthodox".  I would much rather be called Misnagad or regular Orthodox. 

[OdKahaneChai]

Look, I'm not the one who invented these modern terms, they are just what everyone uses today like it or not.  Personally I find the name "modern orthodox" offensive since it implies that you combined orthodoxy with new secular things that didn't exist in your tradition and there was no such name until recently.  However, no one except myself uses the term "Misnagad" any more but everyone calls the Misnagdim "Modern Orthodox".  I would much rather be called Misnagad or regular Orthodox. 

All I know is - whenever I've heard the term used it's always meant a non-Chasidic Charedi.

[MarZutra]

Marzutra- nop. The students of the Vina Gaon are who are termed "Haredim" today. Haredim are Jews who keep the Torah strictly. Also about the Kabbalah and Zohar you should know that many of the Vina Gaon's writings did include commentaries and indepth study of the Zohar and Kabbalah. You can really say that the Vilna Gaon fought against the Hassidim becuase they believe in some of the teachings from the Zohar. Its like what chaim said once that the hassidim made new things like reincarnation and thats why the Vilna Gaon opposed them, but that cant be the truth since the Vina Gaon himself wrote about reincarnations (for example).
  What I believe to be the case is that the early Hassidim focused more on Praying then Talmud Torah, and thats what was the main division. There is also a concept of Tzaddikim fighting among themselves (theirs writing about this and why).

Thanks very much.  I do know that the Vilna Gaon was one of the earliest Rabbi's that sent many of his Yeshiva students to Eretz....early active Zionists....

[MarZutra]

Thanks JDL.  I was partially right...  I read on the Vilna Gaon and his confrontation with the Hassidim Balshemtov movement and what not and too the verious views on Zohar and Kabbalah.  The Zohar is something that I, personally, find suspect as it was in the 13th century, not by a Rabbi but by a "scholar": Moses de Leon.  He said that he based his writings from that of a rabbi of the second century, Shimon bar Yochai who lived for 13 years in a cave, so the story goes and was inspired to write the Zohar based on a vision....or foretold by Elijah the prophet. 

Is it possible...perhaps...but I just don't know as there are many concepts of Judaism that are still debated by the most learned of Rabbi's...

[OdKahaneChai]

Thanks JDL.  I was partially right...  I read on the Vilna Gaon and his confrontation with the Hassidim Balshemtov movement and what not and too the verious views on Zohar and Kabbalah.  The Zohar is something that I, personally, find suspect as it was in the 13th century, not by a Rabbi but by a "scholar": Moses de Leon.  He said that he based his writings from that of a rabbi of the second century, Shimon bar Yochai who lived for 13 years in a cave, so the story goes and was inspired to write the Zohar based on a vision....or foretold by Elijah the prophet. 

Is it possible...perhaps...but I just don't know as there are many concepts of Judaism that are still debated by the most learned of Rabbi's...

The Zohar is most certainly by R' Shimon bar Yochai, A"H.  And whether they wanted to be or not, the Vilna Gaon, A"H, and the Alter Rebbe A"H, had some very similar Halachic opinions.

[jdl4ever]

The Zohar was not written by R' Shimon Bar Yochai.  It was a forgery written by Moses de Leon in the 13th century (he lied and said that he copied a manuscript from Bar Yochai which no one ever saw) and the story of it's forgery was written by a Sephardic Rabbi who investigated the matter in the 13th century, JDL4ever didn't make this up.  But of course the Kabbalists have covered this up and very few people know the truth about this matter so go on and continue to believe it was written by R' Shimon Bar Yoachai if it makes you feel any better (even I don't tell people what I believe in with regard to the Zohar since it has been wrongly accepted for such a long time). 

And I have no hatred toward most of the Chassidim.  I admire the early Chassidik writings and certain things about Chassidim I very much enjoy.  Chassidism has revived certain lost things and brought a lot of spark as well to Judaism.  I and my tradition simply have disagreements over some things they do.  The Vilna Goan Zs'l being such a wise saint probably saw the future and saw that while there were great things about certain aspects of the Chassidik thought, they would change tradition and go to the right of what the Torah commands literally changing Judaism almost irreversably several generations later.

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

The Zohar was not written by R' Shimon Bar Yochai.  It was a forgery written by Moses de Leon in the 13th century (he lied and said that he copied a manuscript from Bar Yochai which no one ever saw) and the story of it's forgery was written by a Sephardic Rabbi who investigated the matter in the 13th century, JDL4ever didn't make this up.  But of course the Kabbalists have covered this up and very few people know the truth about this matter so go on and continue to believe it was written by R' Shimon Bar Yoachai if it makes you feel any better (even I don't tell people what I believe in with regard to the Zohar since it has been wrongly accepted for such a long time). 

And I have no hatred toward most of the Chassidim.  I admire the early Chassidik writings and certain things about Chassidim I very much enjoy.  Chassidism has revived certain lost things and brought a lot of spark as well to Judaism.  I and my tradition simply have disagreements over some things they do.  The Vilna Goan Zs'l being such a wise saint probably saw the future and saw that while there were great things about certain aspects of the Chassidik thought, they would change tradition and go to the right of what the Torah commands literally changing Judaism almost irreversably several generations later.

there is no official consensus on who wrote the Zohar, the story is not covered up, I have heard it and am well aware of it. I dont know which story I believe, but both have their arguments

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

No. Actually the Early Hassidim emphasized on prayers and not as much Talmud Torah. Then after the opposition of the Vilna Gaon ZTL and others, and the emergence of Rabbi Nachman of Breslev ZTL, the Hassidim started learning Torah a lot. Rabbi Nachman, said
" The Misnagdim (opponents of the Chassidim) say that the main thing is to study Torah. The Chassidim say the main thing is prayer. But I say: Pray and study and pray…

Siach Sarfey Kodesh 1-87"

 You cant understand the fighting between the Tzaddikim at face value. And on top of that to claim (or imply) that the Vilna Gaon opposed them because of the Zohar, etc. Is obviously wronge and flawed since he himself writes about the Zohar, and the soo-called "controversial" parts of Judaism.
 One more point- about the Zohar not being autentic. -Can you please provide solide sources of people who disagree with it (meaning dont accept it) ? I know their is probably 1 very small yeminite group, but besides them who else in the ORTHODOX world disagrees?  (Please dont tell me that its a Hassidic conspiracy, which brainwashed the whole Orthodox world)

[jdl4ever]

I never said that Kabalah had anything to do with the Misnagdim putting the Chassidim in Cherem or had anything to do with the Vilna Gaon at all.  That was a completely separate issue I talked about and I already said that most Misnagdim don't reject the Zohar only some do (like me).  Also, the issue with Chassidim is not simply about praying and learning, this is merely a crude summary. It's a much deeper issue and I wrote a little about it based on what I saw, the tradition of my grandfather and what he said about this.  The main issue I believe was that they had their eyes up in the clouds all the time and were not studying Torah logically in accordance with the Talmud but were too much into Chassidut, trying to make far out interpretations of the Torah and studying the Zohar way too much (both are connected) instead of putting any time into studying the simple Torah.  What I mean by Chassidut is that the made the priority getting very happy, loving G-d and praying a lot which was very good, but they did this to such an far extent that they were uneducated in the simple written Torah and even the Talmud so they would therefore make things up that never existed before in Judaism and they would frequently go to the far right beyond of what the Torah said. 

Rabbi Yaakov Emden 1697-1776 is the most famous recent opponent of the Zohar.  He said it was not written by R' Shimon Bar Yochai and parts of it are heretical.  The source of all the opponents of the Zohar comes from a story written by Rabbi Yitzchak of Acco 1250-1340 CE who was a student of the Ramban and he decided to investigate the authenticity of the Zohar himself by visiting the Zohar's author Rabbi Moshe de Leon.  The manuscripts of his writings are lost but the majority of his story was copied by Rabbi Avraham Zacuto's Sefer HaYuchasin 1425-1515 which exists.  I told the story already on this forum about how the guy never showed the manuscripts to anyone and after he died his wife and daughter were offered money for them and said that there were never any manuscripts by R' Shimon Bar Yochai but R' Moshe de Leon wrote the work himself. 

[MarZutra]

To my knowledge of the Zohar is that it wasn't written by a Rabbi at all....