Author Topic: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?  (Read 33197 times)

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Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #125 on: January 17, 2008, 10:30:23 PM »
Tzvi, that's your problem, unless I quote a Rabbi saying something you completely ignore it no matter how impeccable the logic or Torah proof.  Then you go on and say that no one can say anything on his own without a Rabbi saying it (Besides the fact that you know there are valid Orthodox Rabbis who rejected the Zohar and reincarnation).  Then you say that a person has to follow a single Rabbi on everything.  That is not Torah, it is complete nonsense and stupidity.  Such people as yourself can never understand the Talmud or the Oral Law since you are incapable of expanding the Torah, studying it deeply and deriving stuff on your own, you completely rely on a crutch which is your Rabbi to the extent that a baby relies on their mother.  Rabbis are not supposed to be used as that, to be consulted on every tiny thing and blindly followed on everything they say and to never think on your own. 

The primary Torah learning is supposed to be you yourself studying the Torah by yourself and consulting Rabbis only when you absolutely need their help, and when you do you are not obliged to follow everything one Rabbi says like a blind follower, if you are not satisfied with his answer since your Torah study reveals that he is wrong then you are free to consult another Rabbi or authority that is in line with the valid Torah truth you discover.  Torah follows no loyalty to anyone except to G-d.  I am not loyal to everything any Rabbi or authority says, not even R' Kahane Zs'l.  I follow the Torah, period.  It just so happens that the Torah truth I uncovered so far is mostly in line with what R' Kahane Zs'l says so I consider myself a follower of the Rav.  And R' Kahane was the unique man he was and stood up against all the Orthodox Jews to free the Soviet Jews because he was not a blind follower but did exactly what I write here.

P.S. I already said that someone told me that he asked R' Kahane about this and he was unsure if the Zohar was really written by R' Shimon Bar Yochai or not so that's why he quotes it.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 10:34:18 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #126 on: January 17, 2008, 10:47:43 PM »
Why would Rav Kahane write in his sefer lines from the Zohar if he believed to to be heresy and untrue as you state. He writes on page 906
  The Holy Zohar, likewise often states that the Ishmaelites will atack the Jewish people and Eretz Yisrael in the end of days. The Zohar, Bereshit, 199a, teaches, "At that time, the Ishmaelites will be aroused together with all the nations of the world to attack Jerusalem." The Zohar furthur teaches (Vaera, 32a, part of which was quoted previously): The Ishmaelites shall long have control over the Holy Land when it is empty... and will deter Israel from returning to their place...In the future, they will stir up major wars, and Edom's............................."
 
  What do we see here? Rav Kahane mentiones and uses lessons from the Zohar and calls it the Holy Zohar.

 - I would also like a list and contact to those so-called Orthodox Rabbis you have stored (I imagine what big army you have). I might be naive and a blind follower (of which im not) of which you call me, but at least the way you present yourself is- arrogance, in the way you feel you know everything on your own without the guidence and direction of a Tzaddik.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #127 on: January 17, 2008, 10:52:38 PM »
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point  :)

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...


no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet.  ;D

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.


I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...

Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital).  So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).


Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...

want more?
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #128 on: January 17, 2008, 10:55:03 PM »
Why would Rav Kahane write in his sefer lines from the Zohar if he believed to to be heresy and untrue as you state. He writes on page 906
  The Holy Zohar, likewise often states that the Ishmaelites will atack the Jewish people and Eretz Yisrael in the end of days. The Zohar, Bereshit, 199a, teaches, "At that time, the Ishmaelites will be aroused together with all the nations of the world to attack Jerusalem." The Zohar furthur teaches (Vaera, 32a, part of which was quoted previously): The Ishmaelites shall long have control over the Holy Land when it is empty... and will deter Israel from returning to their place...In the future, they will stir up major wars, and Edom's............................."
 
  What do we see here? Rav Kahane mentiones and uses lessons from the Zohar and calls it the Holy Zohar.

 - I would also like a list and contact to those so-called Orthodox Rabbis you have stored (I imagine what big army you have). I might be naive and a blind follower (of which im not) of which you call me, but at least the way you present yourself is- arrogance, in the way you feel you know everything on your own without the guidence and direction of a Tzaddik.

Once again, like a muslim arab, everythign you claim JDL4ever to be you actually are doing...being arrogant in every which way.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #129 on: January 17, 2008, 10:57:02 PM »
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point  :)

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...


no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet.  ;D

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.


I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...

Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital).  So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).


Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...

want more?

Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #130 on: January 17, 2008, 11:01:19 PM »
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point  :)

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...


no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet.  ;D

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.


I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...

Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital).  So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).


Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...

want more?

Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -

Rabbi ezrakhian, Rabbi Hezekiah, Rabbi David Salzman, Rabbi Daniel Salzman, Rabbi Shenkel, Rabbi Barukh Brookhim, Rabbi Barukhian, Rabbi Moussa Melamed...want more?
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #131 on: January 17, 2008, 11:02:15 PM »
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point  :)

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...


no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet.  ;D

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.


I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...

Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital).  So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).


Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...

want more?

Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -
Don't forget every single Chossid...

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
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Offline DownwithIslam

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #132 on: January 17, 2008, 11:03:21 PM »
Tzvi, I was wondering what Yeshiva you go to as I never have come across someone with your beliefs.
I am urinating on a Koran.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #133 on: January 17, 2008, 11:03:57 PM »
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point  :)

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...


no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet.  ;D

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.


I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...

Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital).  So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).


Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...

want more?

Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -
Don't forget every single Chossid...

Once again, so what? naming rabbis who believe and don't believe in reincarnation doesn't prove its existance...
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #134 on: January 17, 2008, 11:04:43 PM »
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point  :)

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...


no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet.  ;D

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.


I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...

Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital).  So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).


Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...

want more?

Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -

Rabbi ezrakhian, Rabbi Hezekiah, Rabbi David Salzman, Rabbi Daniel Salzman, Rabbi Shenkel, Rabbi Barukh Brookhim, Rabbi Barukhian, Rabbi Moussa Melamed...want more?

 ;D just making up names.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #135 on: January 17, 2008, 11:07:01 PM »
I posted the list of the old Orthodox commentaries who called it heresy or a forgery in a previous thread where we talked about the Zohar.  What bothers me is not that you accept the Zohar or Gilgul since you have Rabbis to follow, but that you don't know the logic as to why you accept it other than "my Rabbi accepts it" and you are usually unable to offer Torah support for your view or counter argue with the opposing viewpoint since you don't know any Torah on your own without asking your Rabbi.  The most you said was a weak proof that possibly it can be interpuited that a Rabbi a few hundred years ago added a hint to Gilgul in a prayer and maybe R' Kahane believed in the Zohar (according to you, not me), note these are not Torah proofs but simply the Rabbi game you like to play.  Also you have this horrible insane mentality that a simple Jew presenting Torah proof is irrelevant unless he is a Rabbi.  I am a simple Jew trying to argue Torah and if you won't listen to my Torah on the basis of it's own merit or argue Torah with me but think that Torah was only created to be learned by Rabbis than I have nothing to say to you.
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #136 on: January 17, 2008, 11:10:55 PM »
Tzvi, I was wondering what Yeshiva you go to as I never have come across someone with your beliefs.

I dont go to a Yeshiva full time. Now im in Queens College, I used to go to Ezra Academy, but now I learn in different places. When school starts again I will be learning with Rabbi Roth in the Queens College Hilel (you are welcome to join, nothing that hard). I do learn also in my Shul, also lectures on the internet, expecially www.torahanytime.com - its the best. Also I buy different books from time to time, and read them (for example Rav Kahane's books, Rabbi Nachman of Breslev - Likutei Moharan, and many others).
 
 I dont understand by what you mean my beliefs? Its concidered the usual and normal. I suggest you just start with the website, which is great, im telling you man.
 
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #137 on: January 17, 2008, 11:14:22 PM »
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point  :)

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...


no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet.  ;D

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.


I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...

Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital).  So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).


Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...

want more?

Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -

Rabbi ezrakhian, Rabbi Hezekiah, Rabbi David Salzman, Rabbi Daniel Salzman, Rabbi Shenkel, Rabbi Barukh Brookhim, Rabbi Barukhian, Rabbi Moussa Melamed...want more?

 ;D just making up names.

Rabbi Ezrakhian is at the Park East synogogue in Manhattan, Rabbi Azriel Fellner is in Livingston, NJ, Rabbi Mirelman is now in Chicago, Rabbi Hezekiah Bender is in Yonkers, NY, Rabbi David Salzman (and there are a few) but this one is in a suburb of Seattle...should I keep going?

Rabbi Moshe Green (Far Rockaway), Rabbi Shua Fogel (I think in Lawerence NY)  All Torah jewish Orthodox...and great educaters.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #138 on: January 17, 2008, 11:17:24 PM »
I posted the list of the old Orthodox commentaries who called it heresy or a forgery in a previous thread where we talked about the Zohar.  What bothers me is not that you accept the Zohar or Gilgul since you have Rabbis to follow, but that you don't know the logic as to why you accept it other than "my Rabbi accepts it" and you are usually unable to offer Torah support for your view or counter argue with the opposing viewpoint since you don't know any Torah on your own without asking your Rabbi.  The most you said was a weak proof that possibly it can be interpuited that a Rabbi a few hundred years ago added a hint to Gilgul in a prayer and maybe R' Kahane believed in the Zohar (according to you, not me), note these are not Torah proofs but simply the Rabbi game you like to play.  Also you have this horrible insane mentality that a simple Jew presenting Torah proof is irrelevant unless he is a Rabbi.  I am a simple Jew trying to argue Torah and if you won't listen to my Torah on the basis of it's own merit or argue Torah with me but think that Torah was only created to be learned by Rabbis than I have nothing to say to you.

 No I acept it also becuase of the great Divine information it contains, something that no-one else knew, which leaves no doubt. For example.
THE ZOHAR PREDICTS THE INDUSTRIAL/ TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION
IT IS WRITTEN IN THE ZOHAR (I VAYERA 117a)
Every sixty years of the sixth millennium the gates of lower wisdom will strengthen and rise up gradually stronger. And after six hundred years of the sixth millennium there will be opened the gates of wisdom above and the fountains of wisdom below, and the world will make preparations to enter the seventh thousand as man makes preparations on the sixth day of the week [before Shabbat], when the sun is about to set. As a mnemonic to this we take the verse, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life . . . all the fountains of the great deep were broken up" (Gen. 7, 11).
WE ARE CURRENTLY IN 5762 WHICH IS EQUAL TO 2002
YEAR 600 OF THE 6TH MILLENNIUM EQUALS 5600 AND ONWARDS [JUST LIKE THE 21ST CENTURY CORRESPONDS TO 2000]
TODAY IS 5762 – 5600 = 162 YEARS AGO
2002 – 162 YEARS = 1840
IF YOU LOOK AT THE DISCOVERIES THAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION AND ALL THE IMPROVEMENTS IN APPLIED SCIENCE: TRANSPORT, ENERGY, COMMUNICATIONS, ETC., THE BULK OF THEM STARTED TAKING PLACE FROM 1800 AND ONWARDS. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT A GREAT DEAL OF THE DISCOVERIES TOOK PLACE THROUGH WHAT IS CALLED SERENDIPITY [MAKING USEFUL DISCOVERIES BY ACCIDENT]. AS IF TO FURTHER PROVE THE POINT, THAT SINCE IT WAS DECREED THAT MANY DISCOVERIES WOULD TAKE PLACE FROM 1800 AND ONWARDS THEN IT HAD TO HAPPEN WHETHER INTENTIONALLY OR NOT.
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 17
8
THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
THE ROTATION OF THE EARTH
DIFFERENT CLIMATES SHAPE THE FEATURES OF INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH
THE PERIOD OF ONLY DAY AND ONLY NIGHT AT THE POLES
THE EARTH IS SHAPED LIKE THE HUMAN EYE
IT IS WRITTEN IN THE ZOHAR (VAYIKRA 10a)
“In the Book of Rab Hamnuna the Elder it is explained further that all the inhabited world rotates in a circle like a ball, so that some are above and some below, and the strange appearances of certain races are due to the nature of the air, each one according to his respective place but they live and are sustained as other men. There is a part of the inhabited world where it is light for some when in another part it is dark for others, so that some have night while others have day. Also there is a place where it is always day and where there is no night save for one short hour. All this account which is found in the books of the ancients and in the Book of Adam the first man is confirmed by Scripture, which says: "I will give thanks to you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made, wonderful are Your works" (Ps. , 15), and again, "O Lord, how manifold are Your works" (PS. 104, 24). This mystery" has been entrusted to the masters of wisdom,[The Rabbis and prophets who received the knowledge from the first man] but is not known to those who mark the boundaries because it is a deep mystery of the Torah.
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 18
SO YOU CAN SEE IN ONE SMALL PARAGRAGH RABBI SHIMON BAR YOCHAI TELLS US IN THE ZOHAR THE FOLLOWING:
1- THE EARTH IS ROUND
2- IT ROTATES JUST LIKE A BALL
3- SOME PEOPLE ARE ABOVE AND SOME BELOW [YET THEY DON’T FALL]
4- APPEARANCE OF PEOPLE GO ACCORDING TO THE DIFFERENT CLIMATES
5- ROTATION PRODUCES DAY AND NIGHT AT THE SAME TIME IN DIFFERENT PLACES
6- THE LENGTH OF DAYLIGHT AT THE POLES
7- RABBIS KNEW ABOUT THESE THINGS BUT NOT GEOGRAPHERS
HERE ARE ANOTHER 2 PORTIONS FROM THE ZOHAR WHICH SHOW YOU ITS KNOWLEDGE MORE THAN 1500 YEARS AGO OF THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
(ZOHAR VAYECHI 226a)
THE EYE AND THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
The human eye represents the world with its various colors. The outer ring of white corresponds to the Oceans that surround the whole world. The next color represents the land that is surrounded by the Seas. A third color in the middle of the eye corresponds to Yerushalaim which is in the center of the world. Finally there is the pupil of the eye, which reflects the onlooker and is the most precious part of all and it corresponds to Tzion which is the central point of the Universe, in which the reflection of the entire world can be seen.
THE EYE AND THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
[ZOHAR II, 222b]
Now, the earth's expansion round the central point was completed in three concentric rings, each of a different hue and texture. The first ring, the nearest to the Point, is of the purest and most refined earth-material; the second expansion, surrounding the first, is of a less
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 19
polished, less refined earth-material than the first, but is superior to the one surrounding it; the third expansion consists of the darkest and coarsest earth-material of all. Then, surrounding that expansion, come the waters of the ocean that surrounds the whole world. Thus the point is in the center, and the various expansions encircle it. The first expansion embraces the Sanctuary and all its courts and enclosures and all its appurtenances, as well as the whole city of Jerusalem bounded by the wall; the second expansion embraces the whole of the Land of Israel, the Land which was declared holy; the third expansion comprehends the rest of the earth, the dwelling-place of all the other nations. Then comes the great ocean which surrounds the whole. The whole arrangement is symbolized by the structure of the human eye. For just as in the human eye there are three concentric layers surrounding a central point, which forms the focus of vision, so is the world's vision focused in the central point, consisting of the Holy of Holies and the Ark and the Mercy Seat. Hence the description, "a beautiful bowery, the joy of the whole earth", "beautiful" in its appearance, and radiating joy to the whole world. It is compared to a "bowery" because the beauty of a tree is displayed in its branches. Observe that true beauty and symmetry were not manifested in the world until the Tabernacle was finally erected and the Ark brought within the Holy of Holies. From that moment the world appeared at its best, it attained its just balance, and a way was opened through the Tabernacle and past the Ark up to that Point.
It is he who sits upon the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are as grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (Isaiah 40:22)
He stretches out the north over the void, and hangs the earth upon nothing. (Job 26:7)

From -Israel613.com
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #139 on: January 17, 2008, 11:19:26 PM »
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point  :)

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...


no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet.  ;D

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.


I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...

Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital).  So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).


Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...

want more?

Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -

Rabbi ezrakhian, Rabbi Hezekiah, Rabbi David Salzman, Rabbi Daniel Salzman, Rabbi Shenkel, Rabbi Barukh Brookhim, Rabbi Barukhian, Rabbi Moussa Melamed...want more?

 ;D just making up names.

Rabbi Ezrakhian is at the Park East synogogue in Manhattan, Rabbi Azriel Fellner is in Livingston, NJ, Rabbi Mirelman is now in Chicago, Rabbi Hezekiah Bender is in Yonkers, NY, Rabbi David Salzman (and there are a few) but this one is in a suburb of Seattle...should I keep going?

Rabbi Moshe Green (Far Rockaway), Rabbi Shua Fogel (I think in Lawerence NY)  All Torah jewish Orthodox...and great educaters.

Okay give me their # so I can call and ask. And how do you know what position they take? Did they mention it in a lecture, or book, etc.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #140 on: January 17, 2008, 11:21:21 PM »
I posted the list of the old Orthodox commentaries who called it heresy or a forgery in a previous thread where we talked about the Zohar.  What bothers me is not that you accept the Zohar or Gilgul since you have Rabbis to follow, but that you don't know the logic as to why you accept it other than "my Rabbi accepts it" and you are usually unable to offer Torah support for your view or counter argue with the opposing viewpoint since you don't know any Torah on your own without asking your Rabbi.  The most you said was a weak proof that possibly it can be interpuited that a Rabbi a few hundred years ago added a hint to Gilgul in a prayer and maybe R' Kahane believed in the Zohar (according to you, not me), note these are not Torah proofs but simply the Rabbi game you like to play.  Also you have this horrible insane mentality that a simple Jew presenting Torah proof is irrelevant unless he is a Rabbi.  I am a simple Jew trying to argue Torah and if you won't listen to my Torah on the basis of it's own merit or argue Torah with me but think that Torah was only created to be learned by Rabbis than I have nothing to say to you.

 No I acept it also becuase of the great Divine information it contains, something that no-one else knew, which leaves no doubt. For example.
THE ZOHAR PREDICTS THE INDUSTRIAL/ TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION
IT IS WRITTEN IN THE ZOHAR (I VAYERA 117a)
Every sixty years of the sixth millennium the gates of lower wisdom will strengthen and rise up gradually stronger. And after six hundred years of the sixth millennium there will be opened the gates of wisdom above and the fountains of wisdom below, and the world will make preparations to enter the seventh thousand as man makes preparations on the sixth day of the week [before Shabbat], when the sun is about to set. As a mnemonic to this we take the verse, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life . . . all the fountains of the great deep were broken up" (Gen. 7, 11).
WE ARE CURRENTLY IN 5762 WHICH IS EQUAL TO 2002
YEAR 600 OF THE 6TH MILLENNIUM EQUALS 5600 AND ONWARDS [JUST LIKE THE 21ST CENTURY CORRESPONDS TO 2000]
TODAY IS 5762 – 5600 = 162 YEARS AGO
2002 – 162 YEARS = 1840
IF YOU LOOK AT THE DISCOVERIES THAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION AND ALL THE IMPROVEMENTS IN APPLIED SCIENCE: TRANSPORT, ENERGY, COMMUNICATIONS, ETC., THE BULK OF THEM STARTED TAKING PLACE FROM 1800 AND ONWARDS. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT A GREAT DEAL OF THE DISCOVERIES TOOK PLACE THROUGH WHAT IS CALLED SERENDIPITY [MAKING USEFUL DISCOVERIES BY ACCIDENT]. AS IF TO FURTHER PROVE THE POINT, THAT SINCE IT WAS DECREED THAT MANY DISCOVERIES WOULD TAKE PLACE FROM 1800 AND ONWARDS THEN IT HAD TO HAPPEN WHETHER INTENTIONALLY OR NOT.
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 17
8
THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
THE ROTATION OF THE EARTH
DIFFERENT CLIMATES SHAPE THE FEATURES OF INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH
THE PERIOD OF ONLY DAY AND ONLY NIGHT AT THE POLES
THE EARTH IS SHAPED LIKE THE HUMAN EYE
IT IS WRITTEN IN THE ZOHAR (VAYIKRA 10a)
“In the Book of Rab Hamnuna the Elder it is explained further that all the inhabited world rotates in a circle like a ball, so that some are above and some below, and the strange appearances of certain races are due to the nature of the air, each one according to his respective place but they live and are sustained as other men. There is a part of the inhabited world where it is light for some when in another part it is dark for others, so that some have night while others have day. Also there is a place where it is always day and where there is no night save for one short hour. All this account which is found in the books of the ancients and in the Book of Adam the first man is confirmed by Scripture, which says: "I will give thanks to you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made, wonderful are Your works" (Ps. , 15), and again, "O Lord, how manifold are Your works" (PS. 104, 24). This mystery" has been entrusted to the masters of wisdom,[The Rabbis and prophets who received the knowledge from the first man] but is not known to those who mark the boundaries because it is a deep mystery of the Torah.
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 18
SO YOU CAN SEE IN ONE SMALL PARAGRAGH RABBI SHIMON BAR YOCHAI TELLS US IN THE ZOHAR THE FOLLOWING:
1- THE EARTH IS ROUND
2- IT ROTATES JUST LIKE A BALL
3- SOME PEOPLE ARE ABOVE AND SOME BELOW [YET THEY DON’T FALL]
4- APPEARANCE OF PEOPLE GO ACCORDING TO THE DIFFERENT CLIMATES
5- ROTATION PRODUCES DAY AND NIGHT AT THE SAME TIME IN DIFFERENT PLACES
6- THE LENGTH OF DAYLIGHT AT THE POLES
7- RABBIS KNEW ABOUT THESE THINGS BUT NOT GEOGRAPHERS
HERE ARE ANOTHER 2 PORTIONS FROM THE ZOHAR WHICH SHOW YOU ITS KNOWLEDGE MORE THAN 1500 YEARS AGO OF THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
(ZOHAR VAYECHI 226a)
THE EYE AND THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
The human eye represents the world with its various colors. The outer ring of white corresponds to the Oceans that surround the whole world. The next color represents the land that is surrounded by the Seas. A third color in the middle of the eye corresponds to Yerushalaim which is in the center of the world. Finally there is the pupil of the eye, which reflects the onlooker and is the most precious part of all and it corresponds to Tzion which is the central point of the Universe, in which the reflection of the entire world can be seen.
THE EYE AND THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
[ZOHAR II, 222b]
Now, the earth's expansion round the central point was completed in three concentric rings, each of a different hue and texture. The first ring, the nearest to the Point, is of the purest and most refined earth-material; the second expansion, surrounding the first, is of a less
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 19
polished, less refined earth-material than the first, but is superior to the one surrounding it; the third expansion consists of the darkest and coarsest earth-material of all. Then, surrounding that expansion, come the waters of the ocean that surrounds the whole world. Thus the point is in the center, and the various expansions encircle it. The first expansion embraces the Sanctuary and all its courts and enclosures and all its appurtenances, as well as the whole city of Jerusalem bounded by the wall; the second expansion embraces the whole of the Land of Israel, the Land which was declared holy; the third expansion comprehends the rest of the earth, the dwelling-place of all the other nations. Then comes the great ocean which surrounds the whole. The whole arrangement is symbolized by the structure of the human eye. For just as in the human eye there are three concentric layers surrounding a central point, which forms the focus of vision, so is the world's vision focused in the central point, consisting of the Holy of Holies and the Ark and the Mercy Seat. Hence the description, "a beautiful bowery, the joy of the whole earth", "beautiful" in its appearance, and radiating joy to the whole world. It is compared to a "bowery" because the beauty of a tree is displayed in its branches. Observe that true beauty and symmetry were not manifested in the world until the Tabernacle was finally erected and the Ark brought within the Holy of Holies. From that moment the world appeared at its best, it attained its just balance, and a way was opened through the Tabernacle and past the Ark up to that Point.
It is he who sits upon the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are as grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (Isaiah 40:22)
He stretches out the north over the void, and hangs the earth upon nothing. (Job 26:7)

From -Israel613.com

You cut and paster!!!

although i do have to admire your intelligence...
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #141 on: January 17, 2008, 11:23:42 PM »
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point  :)

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...


no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet.  ;D

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.


I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...

Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital).  So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).


Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...

want more?

Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -

Rabbi ezrakhian, Rabbi Hezekiah, Rabbi David Salzman, Rabbi Daniel Salzman, Rabbi Shenkel, Rabbi Barukh Brookhim, Rabbi Barukhian, Rabbi Moussa Melamed...want more?

 ;D just making up names.

Rabbi Ezrakhian is at the Park East synogogue in Manhattan, Rabbi Azriel Fellner is in Livingston, NJ, Rabbi Mirelman is now in Chicago, Rabbi Hezekiah Bender is in Yonkers, NY, Rabbi David Salzman (and there are a few) but this one is in a suburb of Seattle...should I keep going?

Rabbi Moshe Green (Far Rockaway), Rabbi Shua Fogel (I think in Lawerence NY)  All Torah jewish Orthodox...and great educaters.

Okay give me their # so I can call and ask. And how do you know what position they take? Did they mention it in a lecture, or book, etc.

these are rabbis I have learned with and asked about reincarnation. These are actual human beings that don't go on the computer to missionize and lecture to the masses. 

You want their numbers to ask?  hahahahahah..why dont' you provide the phone numbers of your rabbis?  You're such balogna!!!

sick sick person...name rabbis and their location and their phone numbers...oh and if they are orthodox and if they go to follow the teachers of Jerusalem in 1840 and if they have white full beards and if they...SCREW YOU!!!
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #142 on: January 17, 2008, 11:23:46 PM »
So? we are looking for the knowledge and information, and not how hard it took to get it. I also posted that I got it from that website.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #143 on: January 17, 2008, 11:27:03 PM »
YOur latest post, was uncalled for. I just wanted to get their # so I can ask them. Rav Amnon Yitzhak- has an essay- so you dont have to ask him, Rav Ovadia Yosef stated what he did publicly, The Vilna Gaon ZTL passed away, but did leave his writing on this subject, and Rabbi Mizrahi can be reached at (917) 418-4141 .
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #144 on: January 17, 2008, 11:29:52 PM »
So? we are looking for the knowledge and information, and not how hard it took to get it. I also posted that I got it from that website.

the rabbis i mentioned are not on any websites i know of...sorry my days are not focused around studying Talmud with Rabbi A and Rabbi B and Rabbi C and Rabbi X and Rabbi blah blah...I have a job where I treat patients on a dailiy basis...you're in school, you have time on yoru hands and you have your future professional life choices ahead of you. I chose mine already..and it definately wasn't to become a rabbi or be even remotely close to being one...so let me be the Periodontist I chose to become..

Sorry, i dont' keep a phone number of any rabbis in my palm pilot or cell phone...And I thank Gd that I don't need to do that because I like to meet new people everywhere I go..and I am decent judge of character...Some rabbis are very smart but are terrible in spreading a message.

Bottom line, Rabbis are mortal and are human beings..

The wise and the fool have the same end.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #145 on: January 17, 2008, 11:31:06 PM »
YOur latest post, was uncalled for. I just wanted to get their # so I can ask them. Rav Amnon Yitzhak- has an essay- so you dont have to ask him, Rav Ovadia Yosef stated what he did publicly, The Vilna Gaon ZTL passed away, but did leave his writing on this subject, and Rabbi Mizrahi can be reached at (917) 418-4141 .

nuf said, i called that number and it wasn't Rabbi Mizrahi...
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #146 on: January 17, 2008, 11:32:35 PM »
So? we are looking for the knowledge and information, and not how hard it took to get it. I also posted that I got it from that website.

the rabbis i mentioned are not on any websites i know of...sorry my days are not focused around studying Talmud with Rabbi A and Rabbi B and Rabbi C and Rabbi X and Rabbi blah blah...
So then maybe you ought to learn some more Talmud...  ::)

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #147 on: January 17, 2008, 11:35:58 PM »
YOur latest post, was uncalled for. I just wanted to get their # so I can ask them. Rav Amnon Yitzhak- has an essay- so you dont have to ask him, Rav Ovadia Yosef stated what he did publicly, The Vilna Gaon ZTL passed away, but did leave his writing on this subject, and Rabbi Mizrahi can be reached at (917) 418-4141 .

nuf said, i called that number and it wasn't Rabbi Mizrahi...

It says so on his website - http://divineinformation.com/contact_us/default.asp
"To contact Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi please call (917) 418-4141 "

I dont want to call right now because it might be late, for some reason I dont belive you, but either way that's what it says on his website. - if you really still want to get in touch with him, I can ask someone or go to his lecture on wensday nights at Beit Gavriel 108th street.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #148 on: January 17, 2008, 11:40:27 PM »
So? we are looking for the knowledge and information, and not how hard it took to get it. I also posted that I got it from that website.

the rabbis i mentioned are not on any websites i know of...sorry my days are not focused around studying Talmud with Rabbi A and Rabbi B and Rabbi C and Rabbi X and Rabbi blah blah...
So then maybe you ought to learn some more Talmud...  ::)



no I ought to live my life, work at my profession, get married, raise my kids and in between gain as much knowledge about the world and when i get tired of the world open up the talmud and Torah and get inspired...and then once i'm bored with that go back to the world and so goes the earth around and around and around.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Does Everything Happen For A Reason?
« Reply #149 on: January 17, 2008, 11:44:38 PM »
YOur latest post, was uncalled for. I just wanted to get their # so I can ask them. Rav Amnon Yitzhak- has an essay- so you dont have to ask him, Rav Ovadia Yosef stated what he did publicly, The Vilna Gaon ZTL passed away, but did leave his writing on this subject, and Rabbi Mizrahi can be reached at (917) 418-4141 .

nuf said, i called that number and it wasn't Rabbi Mizrahi...

It says so on his website - http://divineinformation.com/contact_us/default.asp
"To contact Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi please call (917) 418-4141 "

I dont want to call right now because it might be late, for some reason I dont belive you, but either way that's what it says on his website. - if you really still want to get in touch with him, I can ask someone or go to his lecture on wensday nights at Beit Gavriel 108th street.


It's not important because i don't appreciate the disrespect you have given me from the get go of joining this forum... I'm not interested and it's nothing against him personally. It's not important to me whether or not reincarnation exists or whether you want to believe in it or not...I just get astounded when i see Jews so one sided and blind and have no sense of open mindedness or consideration of what is on this planet earth in this current lifetime...It's such a waste to think the way you do this young an age.

I say go learn..but live your life and enjoy what's out there in the world and learn from people and dont' treat others who migh tnot be as religious or as learned in jewish texts as you with disdain..It's just disgusting, Tzvi, your arrogance towards me and others who disagree with you...just SICK!!! You flaunt your knowledge like you are high and mighty...but nobody will love you for it..and you'll be alone for the rest of your life because of it because nobody likes a shmuck like you.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 11:55:42 PM by Dr. Dan »
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein