General Category > Ask Posters Show Threads
Ask Zvulun ben Moshe
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on April 10, 2008, 09:04:12 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on April 10, 2008, 03:14:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on April 09, 2008, 11:13:07 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on April 09, 2008, 10:41:59 PM ---Do you believe in the Torah both Written and Oral?
If no, then no. But if yes, how can you say that their is no Heven and Hell, if that is written in the Talmud and is definitly something that Judaism does believe in. It is also connected to what all Jews must believe that their is reward for the rightious and punishment for the wicked.
--- End quote ---
Let's not mix everything up.
1) I do believe in the Written Torah as the divine inspiration
2) Talmud is a man-made collection of rabbinic commentaries, with some of which you may agree and with some you have the right to disagree. And I do disagree with some commentators. I may be too dumb to understand the wisdom of some of those sages, but the right to disagree is still there.
Therefore your statement “If no, then no” does not work here. I say, Torah – absolutely yes, Talmud – mostly yes.
Then you say “how can you say that there is no Heaven and Hell, if that is written in the Talmud”.
Here is the trick: I can say that, because Torah doesn’t mention anywhere about Heaven or Hell.
If Maimonides talked about it in Talmud, with all due respect, that doesn’t make his opinion mandatory, since: 1) it is not in Torah, 2) it wasn't divinely inspired.
To continue on this, here is my hypothesis on where Maimonides got the idea of Heaven and Hell:
1) First, we were given Torah, which does not mention afterlife ANYWHERE. The dry bones to me are symbolic, embodying Jewish souls that will return to G-d from atheism and secularism.
2) Then when Greeks and Romans with their long and bloody occupation of the Land of Israel brought the myth of afterworld from the Greek mythology.
3) Then Jesus was influenced by the myth and included it in his preaching, since the concept was very popular throughout the empire.
4) Later Mohammed in order to “unite” everyone that he could, made Jesus a prophet and accepted the notion of afterworld as something very effective in rewarding or terrorizing people.
5) Later, Maimonides, who lived among Muslims, decides to comment on the notion of heaven and hell, since in Islam it had a major place and importance.
History, even the most intricate, does not change the original word of G-d.
--- End quote ---
What you just said is that in reality you do not believe in Judaism. Heven and Hell is one of the tenents of Judasim. Just believing in the Tannach, is not Judaism.
You should see the DivineInformation video on Torahanytime.com , or the New video "Rabbi Yossi Mizrachi: A Night in Kings Point Great Neck (04/01/2008)"
http://www.kolyakov.org/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
--- End quote ---
So, believing in Tanakh alone is not Judaism? OK.
Well, first of all, I said I believe Tanakh is the only divine inspiration. You, obviously, dont wanna tell me that Talmud is divinely inspired. I did say that Talmud is not 100% authority for me.
I hope that is clear.
Now. I have a question for you.
Who and when was first to introduce the idea of heaven and hell in Judaism?
--- End quote ---
A "next world" or 'world to come' whatever you want to call it, is referred to rather directly in the Torah.
Zvulun Ben Moshe:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 01, 2008, 12:56:03 AM ---
--- Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on April 10, 2008, 09:04:12 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on April 10, 2008, 03:14:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on April 09, 2008, 11:13:07 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on April 09, 2008, 10:41:59 PM ---Do you believe in the Torah both Written and Oral?
If no, then no. But if yes, how can you say that their is no Heven and Hell, if that is written in the Talmud and is definitly something that Judaism does believe in. It is also connected to what all Jews must believe that their is reward for the rightious and punishment for the wicked.
--- End quote ---
Let's not mix everything up.
1) I do believe in the Written Torah as the divine inspiration
2) Talmud is a man-made collection of rabbinic commentaries, with some of which you may agree and with some you have the right to disagree. And I do disagree with some commentators. I may be too dumb to understand the wisdom of some of those sages, but the right to disagree is still there.
Therefore your statement “If no, then no” does not work here. I say, Torah – absolutely yes, Talmud – mostly yes.
Then you say “how can you say that there is no Heaven and Hell, if that is written in the Talmud”.
Here is the trick: I can say that, because Torah doesn’t mention anywhere about Heaven or Hell.
If Maimonides talked about it in Talmud, with all due respect, that doesn’t make his opinion mandatory, since: 1) it is not in Torah, 2) it wasn't divinely inspired.
To continue on this, here is my hypothesis on where Maimonides got the idea of Heaven and Hell:
1) First, we were given Torah, which does not mention afterlife ANYWHERE. The dry bones to me are symbolic, embodying Jewish souls that will return to G-d from atheism and secularism.
2) Then when Greeks and Romans with their long and bloody occupation of the Land of Israel brought the myth of afterworld from the Greek mythology.
3) Then Jesus was influenced by the myth and included it in his preaching, since the concept was very popular throughout the empire.
4) Later Mohammed in order to “unite” everyone that he could, made Jesus a prophet and accepted the notion of afterworld as something very effective in rewarding or terrorizing people.
5) Later, Maimonides, who lived among Muslims, decides to comment on the notion of heaven and hell, since in Islam it had a major place and importance.
History, even the most intricate, does not change the original word of G-d.
--- End quote ---
What you just said is that in reality you do not believe in Judaism. Heven and Hell is one of the tenents of Judasim. Just believing in the Tannach, is not Judaism.
You should see the DivineInformation video on Torahanytime.com , or the New video "Rabbi Yossi Mizrachi: A Night in Kings Point Great Neck (04/01/2008)"
http://www.kolyakov.org/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
--- End quote ---
So, believing in Tanakh alone is not Judaism? OK.
Well, first of all, I said I believe Tanakh is the only divine inspiration. You, obviously, dont wanna tell me that Talmud is divinely inspired. I did say that Talmud is not 100% authority for me.
I hope that is clear.
Now. I have a question for you.
Who and when was first to introduce the idea of heaven and hell in Judaism?
--- End quote ---
A "next world" or 'world to come' whatever you want to call it, is referred to rather directly in the Torah.
--- End quote ---
Really? Quote please.
Rubystars:
If there's no existence beyond this world then what advantage is there to believing in God vs. atheism? Atheists can be moral and kind and do good works for others.
Zvulun Ben Moshe:
Brilliant question!
Well, to be very blunt, I am sorry to hear that the only reason why you believe in G-d is your “hope” that after your death you will be either rewarded or punished or maybe even both.
Such reason to believe can indeed be the only reason that you can have at your disposal, unless:
* You believe that the Jewish People were mass (more than 600,000 people!!!) witnesses of the miraculous “negotiation skills” of Moses, when he alone “kidnapped” a whole nation from the most powerful man on the planet at the time;
* You believe that the Jewish People were mass witnesses of the division of the sea, which doesn’t happen that often in nature :). Imagine how strong the emotional impact was on these people that thousands of years later their descendants still believe with the same might.
* You believe that the Jewish People were mass witnesses of receiving the Torah from some force that caused a yet unseen combination of natural cataclysms.
* You believe that Torah is too sophisticated for an army of the most intelligent people to design. Let alone in ancient times.
* You believe the Jewish Prophets who at a sort of press conference of those days declared that G-d appeared to them, who said among other things that Israel will be reestablished within one day and that the small nation will defeat forces outnumbering it many times.
To be continued shortly.
Zvulun Ben Moshe:
OK.
Let’s say we believe in existence of G-d, but what are the motives of following His laws?
You say it must be the afterworld for whatever reasons. Let’s make it clear – you said it, not G-d. His Words did not contain such statements.
You say one should believe in G-d because, if he/she does good, then he/she will party day and night in paradise and if he/she does bad, then he/she will get a nice tan in hell.
Let’s look at it from a practical standpoint. It would be a strong motive, IF the rewards or punishments were coming the next day after the deeds or at least after a short period of time.
Let’s face it: the majority of people will live at least 50 years and every other morning will be just like the one before it. Don’t you think that most people would postpone being “good” for the next day a few thousands of times?
So, if you come to following the laws of G-d not from just trusting him, but from “what’s in it for me”, then you really must be motivated by something more active and effective than something that can come about in 50 or 60 years.
Thus, you must ask yourself a question:
Is there a system that can reward or punish you during your life time?
Well, let me tell my answer:
Everything that I was trying and testing in my life had the same conclusion.
Torah (The Law) is the most effective “Life for Dummies” I have ever read.
You can forever forget the Self Help section in your local Barnes and Nobles.
Torah is the best self help book.
If you do what it prescribes (not the same as good deeds, since some good deeds are not always good), life will reward you, and if you go against it (and I certainly did), life will destroy you morally and sometimes physically.
Thank you for your attention.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version