Author Topic: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_  (Read 25421 times)

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Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #100 on: January 28, 2008, 08:36:32 AM »
Fidei defensor = skippy so why not just change the name back?

Because I wanted to surprise a few of my friends on this forum, namely Husar  :::D

I will change it later Only came back yesterday afternoon, give me time  ;D

And BTW thanks Newman  ^-^

You succeeded in this.

 ;D ;D ;D

I know I was naughty  :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D

newman

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #101 on: January 28, 2008, 03:28:43 PM »
As Chaim (along with most reputable historians) has said on many occasions, iSSlamic "science and innovation" is a fraud. The original muSSlims were arabs who invented NOTHING. Great science and architecture existed in NON-muSSlim Persia, Asyria, Egypt and other non-muSSlim lands. When these lands and people were conquered by the arab-muSSlims this science and innovation was absorbed. It didn't last (as can be seen by observation today) because iSSlam is a religion and culture that inhibits and prevents thought.

BTW,

Welome back, Skip'.
Not true, did you read the link ?

What I said IS true.

You should re-read the link because it backs up what I said.

Quote
During the early Muslim conquests, the Muslim Arabs led by Khalid ibn al-Walid conquered the Sassanid Persian Empire and more than half of the Byzantine Roman Empire, establishing the Arab Empire across the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa, followed by further expansions across Pakistan, southern Italy and the Iberian Peninsula. As a result, the Islamic governments inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle East, of Greece, of Persia and of India.
Not really, they invented a lot, the fact they were inpiared by the other people they conquered (the Byzantine Roman Empire is not included because it infact, did nothing).
Arab-muSSlims couldn't invent a wooden club!

The knowledge and science base came from non-muSSlim people in non-muSSlim lands. NOTHING came from arab-muSSlim savages.

Look at iSSlam for the last few centuries. If muSSlims are so scientific, why did the whole iSSlamic world degenerate into the dark ages when the christian and Jewish worlds advanced?

Why does the iSSlamic world need to import doctors, engineers and other technical workers from the west to function if they're remotely capable of invention or inovation?

Offline Dexter

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #102 on: January 28, 2008, 03:49:31 PM »
As Chaim (along with most reputable historians) has said on many occasions, iSSlamic "science and innovation" is a fraud. The original muSSlims were arabs who invented NOTHING. Great science and architecture existed in NON-muSSlim Persia, Asyria, Egypt and other non-muSSlim lands. When these lands and people were conquered by the arab-muSSlims this science and innovation was absorbed. It didn't last (as can be seen by observation today) because iSSlam is a religion and culture that inhibits and prevents thought.

BTW,

Welome back, Skip'.
Not true, did you read the link ?

What I said IS true.

You should re-read the link because it backs up what I said.

Quote
During the early Muslim conquests, the Muslim Arabs led by Khalid ibn al-Walid conquered the Sassanid Persian Empire and more than half of the Byzantine Roman Empire, establishing the Arab Empire across the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa, followed by further expansions across Pakistan, southern Italy and the Iberian Peninsula. As a result, the Islamic governments inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle East, of Greece, of Persia and of India.
Not really, they invented a lot, the fact they were inpiared by the other people they conquered (the Byzantine Roman Empire is not included because it infact, did nothing).
Arab-muSSlims couldn't invent a wooden club!

The knowledge and science base came from non-muSSlim people in non-muSSlim lands. NOTHING came from arab-muSSlim savages.

Look at iSSlam for the last few centuries. If muSSlims are so scientific, why did the whole iSSlamic world degenerate into the dark ages when the christian and Jewish worlds advanced?

Why does the iSSlamic world need to import doctors, engineers and other technical workers from the west to function if they're remotely capable of invention or inovation?
I said Muslims, didn't say Arab Muslims. But Arabs also invented things, after all the Islamic culture is based on the Arab culture. The Islamic world in it's golden age brought us only good, especially to Judaism, only because of the effect of the Islamic and Arabic philosophies we had rabbis as the Ramban, Shlomo Ibn Gvirol, Sa'adia Gaon and people as Binyamin Metulad and Yehuda HaLewi and so on and so on. The Muslim allowed the Jews to live in Jerusalem etc'.

If you were actually reading Bernard Louise books (that are always recommended here) you will understand what happend to the Islamic world and why he became static in the 13th century and suddenly got back to the 7th century. Especially read The Middle East and The Arabs in History. It's too long to write down the things that happened, but it's mostly because of the ideas the Christians world got from the Islamic world and in the same time movements as the Renaissance in the 14th century.

Listen, Newman. Every religion has it's era of fundamentalism, it happened to Judaism in the 1-2 century C.E. in Judea and to Christianity in the 10th-13th centuries C.E., now it's the era of the Islamic fundamentalism. It doesn't mean Islam was always like that, and Wahhabism didn't existed until the 18th century. Plus, Arab historions said in the Islamic golden age exactly what you say about Arabs, only they talked about the Northen-European people. I read in the book "The Middle East" about one Arab historion who listed the people who contributed to the world: "Greeks, Jews, Persians[...] only the fool, fat blond haired did nothing and can't have the sense/wisdom that normal people have" (quotation from the memory..).
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #103 on: January 28, 2008, 04:05:07 PM »
As Chaim (along with most reputable historians) has said on many occasions, iSSlamic "science and innovation" is a fraud. The original muSSlims were arabs who invented NOTHING. Great science and architecture existed in NON-muSSlim Persia, Asyria, Egypt and other non-muSSlim lands. When these lands and people were conquered by the arab-muSSlims this science and innovation was absorbed. It didn't last (as can be seen by observation today) because iSSlam is a religion and culture that inhibits and prevents thought.

BTW,

Welome back, Skip'.
Not true, did you read the link ?

What I said IS true.

You should re-read the link because it backs up what I said.

Quote
During the early Muslim conquests, the Muslim Arabs led by Khalid ibn al-Walid conquered the Sassanid Persian Empire and more than half of the Byzantine Roman Empire, establishing the Arab Empire across the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa, followed by further expansions across Pakistan, southern Italy and the Iberian Peninsula. As a result, the Islamic governments inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle East, of Greece, of Persia and of India.
Not really, they invented a lot, the fact they were inpiared by the other people they conquered (the Byzantine Roman Empire is not included because it infact, did nothing).
Arab-muSSlims couldn't invent a wooden club!

The knowledge and science base came from non-muSSlim people in non-muSSlim lands. NOTHING came from arab-muSSlim savages.

Look at iSSlam for the last few centuries. If muSSlims are so scientific, why did the whole iSSlamic world degenerate into the dark ages when the christian and Jewish worlds advanced?

Why does the iSSlamic world need to import doctors, engineers and other technical workers from the west to function if they're remotely capable of invention or inovation?
I said Muslims, didn't say Arab Muslims. But Arabs also invented things, after all the Islamic culture is based on the Arab culture. The Islamic world in it's golden age brought us only good, especially to Judaism, only because of the effect of the Islamic and Arabic philosophies we had rabbis as the Ramban, Shlomo Ibn Gvirol, Sa'adia Gaon and people as Binyamin Metulad and Yehuda HaLewi and so on and so on. The Muslim allowed the Jews to live in Jerusalem etc'.

If you were actually reading Bernard Louise books (that are always recommended here) you will understand what happend to the Islamic world and why he became static in the 13th century and suddenly got back to the 7th century. Especially read The Middle East and The Arabs in History. It's too long to write down the things that happened, but it's mostly because of the ideas the Christians world got from the Islamic world and in the same time movements as the Renaissance in the 14th century.

Listen, Newman. Every religion has it's era of fundamentalism, it happened to Judaism in the 1-2 century C.E. in Judea and to Christianity in the 10th-13th centuries C.E., now it's the era of the Islamic fundamentalism. It doesn't mean Islam was always like that, and Wahhabism didn't existed until the 18th century. Plus, Arab historions said in the Islamic golden age exactly what you say about Arabs, only they talked about the Northen-European people. I read in the book "The Middle East" about one Arab historion who listed the people who contributed to the world: "Greeks, Jews, Persians[...] only the fool, fat blond haired did nothing and can't have the sense/wisdom that normal people have" (quotation from the memory..).
That's a load of taqqiya you've been fed.

Every engineering, architectural and other inovation existed in the pre-iSSlamic lands before muSSlims ever set foot there.

If one studies history Dexter, you see that Jews and christians went FROM fundamentalism TO knowledge and enlightenment. NOBODY goes FROM knowledge and enlightenment TO fundamentalism and ignorance (as you claim the muSSlims have). The muSSlimculture and religion has ALWAYS been backward. The only reason for it's "golden age" was the boost from the knowledge that was WITHIN the non-muSSlim lands and people they conquered. After several generations of iSSlam, that knowledge and innovation died out because iSSlam stifles learning and thought.

I reapeat:

People and cultures go FROM ignorance and fundamentalism TO knowledge and enlightenment................NOT the other way around.

The reason iSSlam and muSSlims are fundamentalist and ignorant today is because the culture/religion has always been that way. If not for persian, greek, egyptian,indian and other non-muSSlim cultures there would have been NO golden age at all in iSSlam.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #104 on: January 28, 2008, 04:14:45 PM »
As Chaim (along with most reputable historians) has said on many occasions, iSSlamic "science and innovation" is a fraud. The original muSSlims were arabs who invented NOTHING. Great science and architecture existed in NON-muSSlim Persia, Asyria, Egypt and other non-muSSlim lands. When these lands and people were conquered by the arab-muSSlims this science and innovation was absorbed. It didn't last (as can be seen by observation today) because iSSlam is a religion and culture that inhibits and prevents thought.

BTW,

Welome back, Skip'.
Not true, did you read the link ?

What I said IS true.

You should re-read the link because it backs up what I said.

Quote
During the early Muslim conquests, the Muslim Arabs led by Khalid ibn al-Walid conquered the Sassanid Persian Empire and more than half of the Byzantine Roman Empire, establishing the Arab Empire across the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa, followed by further expansions across Pakistan, southern Italy and the Iberian Peninsula. As a result, the Islamic governments inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle East, of Greece, of Persia and of India.
Not really, they invented a lot, the fact they were inpiared by the other people they conquered (the Byzantine Roman Empire is not included because it infact, did nothing).
Arab-muSSlims couldn't invent a wooden club!

The knowledge and science base came from non-muSSlim people in non-muSSlim lands. NOTHING came from arab-muSSlim savages.

Look at iSSlam for the last few centuries. If muSSlims are so scientific, why did the whole iSSlamic world degenerate into the dark ages when the christian and Jewish worlds advanced?

Why does the iSSlamic world need to import doctors, engineers and other technical workers from the west to function if they're remotely capable of invention or inovation?
I said Muslims, didn't say Arab Muslims. But Arabs also invented things, after all the Islamic culture is based on the Arab culture. The Islamic world in it's golden age brought us only good, especially to Judaism, only because of the effect of the Islamic and Arabic philosophies we had rabbis as the Ramban, Shlomo Ibn Gvirol, Sa'adia Gaon and people as Binyamin Metulad and Yehuda HaLewi and so on and so on. The Muslim allowed the Jews to live in Jerusalem etc'.

If you were actually reading Bernard Louise books (that are always recommended here) you will understand what happend to the Islamic world and why he became static in the 13th century and suddenly got back to the 7th century. Especially read The Middle East and The Arabs in History. It's too long to write down the things that happened, but it's mostly because of the ideas the Christians world got from the Islamic world and in the same time movements as the Renaissance in the 14th century.

Listen, Newman. Every religion has it's era of fundamentalism, it happened to Judaism in the 1-2 century C.E. in Judea and to Christianity in the 10th-13th centuries C.E., now it's the era of the Islamic fundamentalism. It doesn't mean Islam was always like that, and Wahhabism didn't existed until the 18th century. Plus, Arab historions said in the Islamic golden age exactly what you say about Arabs, only they talked about the Northen-European people. I read in the book "The Middle East" about one Arab historion who listed the people who contributed to the world: "Greeks, Jews, Persians[...] only the fool, fat blond haired did nothing and can't have the sense/wisdom that normal people have" (quotation from the memory..).
That's a load of taqqiya you've been fed.

Every engineering, architectural and other inovation existed in the pre-iSSlamic lands before muSSlims ever set foot there.

If one studies history Dexter, you see that Jews and christians went FROM fundamentalism TO knowledge and enlightenment. NOBODY goes FROM knowledge and enlightenment TO fundamentalism and ignorance (as you claim the muSSlims have). The muSSlimculture and religion has ALWAYS been backward. The only reason for it's "golden age" was the boost from the knowledge that was WITHIN the non-muSSlim lands and people they conquered. After several generations of iSSlam, that knowledge and innovation died out because iSSlam stifles learning and thought.

I reapeat:

People and cultures go FROM ignorance and fundamentalism TO knowledge and enlightenment................NOT the other way around.

The reason iSSlam and muSSlims are fundamentalist and ignorant today is because the culture/religion has always been that way. If not for persian, greek, egyptian,indian and other non-muSSlim cultures there would have been NO golden age at all in iSSlam.
Read the wikipedia artical.

If you were correct, the technology of the 21th century have been created in the 10th century because we should have develope the Roman technology and not the Christian technology, which is not true. After the Barberian tribes destroyed the Roman empire the DESTROYED the engineering, architectural and cultural achivments of the Roman empire. There were no biuldings as there were in the Roman empire times until the Renaissance in the 14th century.

History moves in cyclicality way. It surly can't be pradicted but it always have the same structure. The idea of the ignorance and fundamentalism to knowledge and enlightenment has never proved itself. Even the Chinese who were most advenced people in a certein time on History suddenly stoped and moved off the stage for the Muslims and then to the post-Renaissance Christians.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

  • Guest
Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #105 on: January 28, 2008, 04:27:31 PM »
As Chaim (along with most reputable historians) has said on many occasions, iSSlamic "science and innovation" is a fraud. The original muSSlims were arabs who invented NOTHING. Great science and architecture existed in NON-muSSlim Persia, Asyria, Egypt and other non-muSSlim lands. When these lands and people were conquered by the arab-muSSlims this science and innovation was absorbed. It didn't last (as can be seen by observation today) because iSSlam is a religion and culture that inhibits and prevents thought.

BTW,

Welome back, Skip'.
Not true, did you read the link ?

What I said IS true.

You should re-read the link because it backs up what I said.

Quote
During the early Muslim conquests, the Muslim Arabs led by Khalid ibn al-Walid conquered the Sassanid Persian Empire and more than half of the Byzantine Roman Empire, establishing the Arab Empire across the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa, followed by further expansions across Pakistan, southern Italy and the Iberian Peninsula. As a result, the Islamic governments inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle East, of Greece, of Persia and of India.
Not really, they invented a lot, the fact they were inpiared by the other people they conquered (the Byzantine Roman Empire is not included because it infact, did nothing).
Arab-muSSlims couldn't invent a wooden club!

The knowledge and science base came from non-muSSlim people in non-muSSlim lands. NOTHING came from arab-muSSlim savages.

Look at iSSlam for the last few centuries. If muSSlims are so scientific, why did the whole iSSlamic world degenerate into the dark ages when the christian and Jewish worlds advanced?

Why does the iSSlamic world need to import doctors, engineers and other technical workers from the west to function if they're remotely capable of invention or inovation?
I said Muslims, didn't say Arab Muslims. But Arabs also invented things, after all the Islamic culture is based on the Arab culture. The Islamic world in it's golden age brought us only good, especially to Judaism, only because of the effect of the Islamic and Arabic philosophies we had rabbis as the Ramban, Shlomo Ibn Gvirol, Sa'adia Gaon and people as Binyamin Metulad and Yehuda HaLewi and so on and so on. The Muslim allowed the Jews to live in Jerusalem etc'.

If you were actually reading Bernard Louise books (that are always recommended here) you will understand what happend to the Islamic world and why he became static in the 13th century and suddenly got back to the 7th century. Especially read The Middle East and The Arabs in History. It's too long to write down the things that happened, but it's mostly because of the ideas the Christians world got from the Islamic world and in the same time movements as the Renaissance in the 14th century.

Listen, Newman. Every religion has it's era of fundamentalism, it happened to Judaism in the 1-2 century C.E. in Judea and to Christianity in the 10th-13th centuries C.E., now it's the era of the Islamic fundamentalism. It doesn't mean Islam was always like that, and Wahhabism didn't existed until the 18th century. Plus, Arab historions said in the Islamic golden age exactly what you say about Arabs, only they talked about the Northen-European people. I read in the book "The Middle East" about one Arab historion who listed the people who contributed to the world: "Greeks, Jews, Persians[...] only the fool, fat blond haired did nothing and can't have the sense/wisdom that normal people have" (quotation from the memory..).
That's a load of taqqiya you've been fed.

Every engineering, architectural and other inovation existed in the pre-iSSlamic lands before muSSlims ever set foot there.

If one studies history Dexter, you see that Jews and christians went FROM fundamentalism TO knowledge and enlightenment. NOBODY goes FROM knowledge and enlightenment TO fundamentalism and ignorance (as you claim the muSSlims have). The muSSlimculture and religion has ALWAYS been backward. The only reason for it's "golden age" was the boost from the knowledge that was WITHIN the non-muSSlim lands and people they conquered. After several generations of iSSlam, that knowledge and innovation died out because iSSlam stifles learning and thought.

I reapeat:

People and cultures go FROM ignorance and fundamentalism TO knowledge and enlightenment................NOT the other way around.

The reason iSSlam and muSSlims are fundamentalist and ignorant today is because the culture/religion has always been that way. If not for persian, greek, egyptian,indian and other non-muSSlim cultures there would have been NO golden age at all in iSSlam.
Read the wikipedia artical.

If you were correct, the technology of the 21th century have been created in the 10th century because we should have develope the Roman technology and not the Christian technology, which is not true. After the Barberian tribes destroyed the Roman empire the DESTROYED the engineering, architectural and cultural achivments of the Roman empire. There were no biuldings as there were in the Roman empire times until the Renaissance in the 14th century.

History moves in cyclicality way. It surly can't be pradicted but it always have the same structure. The idea of the ignorance and fundamentalism to knowledge and enlightenment has never proved itself. Even the Chinese who were most advenced people in a certein time on History suddenly stoped and moved off the stage for the Muslims and then to the post-Renaissance Christians.
The fact that europe rose AFTER barbarians destroyed Rome proves my point. FROM dark ages TO enlightenment. Even a set back such as the barbarian invasion, the black plague and other catastrophies DIDN'T stop european Judaic/christian advancements. If iSSlamic culture had ANY value or ability, nothing could stop it's advancement, either.

BTW, iSSlam NEVER conquered China. Chinese innovation stalled but didn't go backwards. The chinese did NOT 'malke way' for iSSlam out of coutesy! Chinese culture has now caught up, as has India's but iSSlam is still in the dark ages. It has NEVER changed in 1300 years.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #106 on: January 28, 2008, 04:39:47 PM »
Quote
The fact that europe rose AFTER barbarians destroyed Rome proves my point. FROM dark ages TO enlightenment. Even a set back such as the barbarian invasion, the black plague and other catastrophies DIDN'T stop european Judaic/christian advancements. If iSSlamic culture had ANY value or ability, nothing could stop it's advancement, either.

BTW, iSSlam NEVER conquered China. Chinese innovation stalled but didn't go backwards. The chinese did NOT 'malke way' for iSSlam out of coutesy! Chinese culture has now caught up, as has India's but iSSlam is still in the dark ages. It has NEVER changed in 1300 years.
It DIDN'T rose after the barbarians destroyed Rome, it rose 1000 YEARS later! That's why history moves in cyclicality way: Advenced(Romans)-Not Advence(Barberian)-Advenced(Post-post-Renaissance Christians--our days). You don't understand the fact that thing change, the Muslims didn't stayed strong as they were and the Christian world step-by-step became more advanced.

I didn't said the Muslims conquered China, the Chinese became stalled AND got backwards, there were no more Chinese philosophers, inventors etc', culture can't be just stalled, it's or forward or backward, if it's not forward, it's backward.

 Infact the Chinese were (and are) more cruel then the Muslims.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

  • Guest
Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #107 on: January 28, 2008, 04:51:42 PM »
Quote
The fact that europe rose AFTER barbarians destroyed Rome proves my point. FROM dark ages TO enlightenment. Even a set back such as the barbarian invasion, the black plague and other catastrophies DIDN'T stop european Judaic/christian advancements. If iSSlamic culture had ANY value or ability, nothing could stop it's advancement, either.

BTW, iSSlam NEVER conquered China. Chinese innovation stalled but didn't go backwards. The chinese did NOT 'malke way' for iSSlam out of coutesy! Chinese culture has now caught up, as has India's but iSSlam is still in the dark ages. It has NEVER changed in 1300 years.
It DIDN'T rose after the barbarians destroyed Rome, it rose 1000 YEARS later! That's why history moves in cyclicality way: Advenced(Romans)-Not Advence(Barberian)-Advenced(Post-post-Renaissance Christians--our days). You don't understand the fact that thing change, the Muslims didn't stayed strong as they were and the Christian world step-by-step became more advanced.

I didn't said the Muslims conquered China, the Chinese became stalled AND got backwards, there were no more Chinese philosophers, inventors etc', culture can't be just stalled, it's or forward or backward, if it's not forward, it's backward.

 Infact the Chinese were (and are) more cruel then the Muslims.

Yes......europe had 1,000 years of dark ages THEN the enlightenment.  FIRST barbarism THEN enlightenment.

iSSlam (according to you) had enlightenment first, then barbarism! This cannot happen and has NEVER happened to ANY culture unless it was invaded by savages. The only reason the enlightenment of the greeks and romans gave way to barbarism was the barbarian invasion. iSSlam was NEVER invaded by barbarians. muSSlims ARE the barbarians.

And of coarse nations can stall. China stopped moving forward technologically but it did not revert to the stoneage.

newman

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #108 on: January 28, 2008, 04:53:31 PM »
BTW,

The mongols were as cruel as muSSlims, the chinese couldn't come close.

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #109 on: January 28, 2008, 06:05:50 PM »
BTW,

The mongols were as cruel as muSSlims, the chinese couldn't come close.

They are pretty much cut from the same cloth.

newman

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #110 on: January 28, 2008, 06:12:11 PM »
BTW,

The mongols were as cruel as muSSlims, the chinese couldn't come close.

They are pretty much cut from the same cloth.

But different nations, language, culture and ethnicity. Much like arabs and persians.

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #111 on: January 28, 2008, 06:14:44 PM »
BTW,

The mongols were as cruel as muSSlims, the chinese couldn't come close.

They are pretty much cut from the same cloth.

But different nations, language, culture and ethnicity. Much like arabs and persians.

As they say "if you are born a street rat, you will die a street rat, and only your fleas will morn you".  8;)

And they are all rats, just in different streets  O0

Offline Dexter

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #112 on: January 29, 2008, 01:05:07 AM »
Quote
The fact that europe rose AFTER barbarians destroyed Rome proves my point. FROM dark ages TO enlightenment. Even a set back such as the barbarian invasion, the black plague and other catastrophies DIDN'T stop european Judaic/christian advancements. If iSSlamic culture had ANY value or ability, nothing could stop it's advancement, either.

BTW, iSSlam NEVER conquered China. Chinese innovation stalled but didn't go backwards. The chinese did NOT 'malke way' for iSSlam out of coutesy! Chinese culture has now caught up, as has India's but iSSlam is still in the dark ages. It has NEVER changed in 1300 years.
It DIDN'T rose after the barbarians destroyed Rome, it rose 1000 YEARS later! That's why history moves in cyclicality way: Advenced(Romans)-Not Advence(Barberian)-Advenced(Post-post-Renaissance Christians--our days). You don't understand the fact that thing change, the Muslims didn't stayed strong as they were and the Christian world step-by-step became more advanced.

I didn't said the Muslims conquered China, the Chinese became stalled AND got backwards, there were no more Chinese philosophers, inventors etc', culture can't be just stalled, it's or forward or backward, if it's not forward, it's backward.

 Infact the Chinese were (and are) more cruel then the Muslims.

Yes......europe had 1,000 years of dark ages THEN the enlightenment.  FIRST barbarism THEN enlightenment.

iSSlam (according to you) had enlightenment first, then barbarism! This cannot happen and has NEVER happened to ANY culture unless it was invaded by savages. The only reason the enlightenment of the greeks and romans gave way to barbarism was the barbarian invasion. iSSlam was NEVER invaded by barbarians. muSSlims ARE the barbarians.

And of coarse nations can stall. China stopped moving forward technologically but it did not revert to the stoneage.
No... Europe had 900 hundered years of Roman enlightenment days, then 1000 years of dark age and THEN the 14th-to-our-days enlightenment age.

Islam didn't had enlightenment age first, it took him 300 hundered years to get their golden age, and then it took 300 hundered years to them to become 7th century people. Infact only because of the Muslims we can today read Plato and other Greeks because they were the only one who kept the Greek writings.

Nations can't stall. Chinastopped moving forward technologically and culturaly, the Muslims didn't move backward by technology, just culturaly.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #113 on: January 29, 2008, 03:16:07 AM »
Quote
The fact that europe rose AFTER barbarians destroyed Rome proves my point. FROM dark ages TO enlightenment. Even a set back such as the barbarian invasion, the black plague and other catastrophies DIDN'T stop european Judaic/christian advancements. If iSSlamic culture had ANY value or ability, nothing could stop it's advancement, either.

BTW, iSSlam NEVER conquered China. Chinese innovation stalled but didn't go backwards. The chinese did NOT 'malke way' for iSSlam out of coutesy! Chinese culture has now caught up, as has India's but iSSlam is still in the dark ages. It has NEVER changed in 1300 years.
It DIDN'T rose after the barbarians destroyed Rome, it rose 1000 YEARS later! That's why history moves in cyclicality way: Advenced(Romans)-Not Advence(Barberian)-Advenced(Post-post-Renaissance Christians--our days). You don't understand the fact that thing change, the Muslims didn't stayed strong as they were and the Christian world step-by-step became more advanced.

I didn't said the Muslims conquered China, the Chinese became stalled AND got backwards, there were no more Chinese philosophers, inventors etc', culture can't be just stalled, it's or forward or backward, if it's not forward, it's backward.

 Infact the Chinese were (and are) more cruel then the Muslims.

Yes......europe had 1,000 years of dark ages THEN the enlightenment.  FIRST barbarism THEN enlightenment.

iSSlam (according to you) had enlightenment first, then barbarism! This cannot happen and has NEVER happened to ANY culture unless it was invaded by savages. The only reason the enlightenment of the greeks and romans gave way to barbarism was the barbarian invasion. iSSlam was NEVER invaded by barbarians. muSSlims ARE the barbarians.

And of coarse nations can stall. China stopped moving forward technologically but it did not revert to the stoneage.
No... Europe had 900 hundered years of Roman enlightenment days, then 1000 years of dark age and THEN the 14th-to-our-days enlightenment age.
Europe went into the dark ages because of a barbarian invasion. From there it went forward.

Islam didn't had enlightenment age first, it took him 300 hundered years to get their golden age, and then it took 300 hundered years to them to become 7th century people.
The muSSlims (unlike europe) had NO barbarian invasian and STILL descended into barbarism. What's their excuse?

 Infact only because of the Muslims we can today read Plato and other Greeks because they were the only one who kept the Greek writings.
Oh great. ONE thing they didn't manage to destroy!

Nations can't stall. China stopped moving forward technologically and culturaly,
To stop moving forward IS 'stalling'. Anthropologists call the australian aborigines an 'arrested culture'. That means it stood still and didn't move forward. It doesn't mean it went in reverse.

 the Muslims didn't move backward by technology, just culturaly.
The muSSlims couldn't go backwards technologically because they NEVER had technology of their own. All they 'invented' was by non-muSSlim cultures and peoples. They were near stone-age then. They are near stone-age now. No difference.



The bottom line is the muSSlims would be NOTHING and have done NOTHING without the gifts of the non-muSSlim greeks, persians ans hindus. Europe overcame the barbarian invasion, the black death and other catastrophies to lead the world.

Judaic/christian europe moves forward. iSSlam was primative, is primative and will ALWAYS be primative.


Offline Husar

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #114 on: January 29, 2008, 03:30:54 AM »
Muslims used to be advanced during The European Dark Ages. They had brilliant Jews that worked for them as well. But Chaim says this was possible because Islam had not yet fully set in in the whole Muslim World.



JEWS...not iSSlam/muSSlimiacs.

 8;)
"HUSSARORUM ALIAS RACOW"
"Hussar alias Rac (Serb)"

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_hussars.html
"Hussar or gussar originally meant "a robber" in Serbian. These horsemen served not only under the Polish and Lithuanian colors but also under those of the Holy Roman Emperor;"
http://www.husaria.jest.pl/rys.html
"Bardzo prawdopodobne, że początek swego istnienia husarze zawdzięczają Serbom. Po klęsce na Kosowym Polu w roku 1389 wszędzie szukali okazji do pomsty na Turkach.
Jan Długosz zapisał pod rokiem 1463, że w bitwie nad Sawą bił się Cohors Raczanorum (oddział Raców - Serbów). Po śmierci króla Macieja Korwina Serbowie udali się do Polski, aby kontynuować walkę z Turkami po usarsku."
http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/polcrt/WingedHussar.html
"The hussar concept began in Serbia, near the end of the 14th century. In the 16th century, painted wings or winged claws began to appear on cavalry shields. Wings were originally attached to the saddle and later to the back. In 1645, Col. Szczodrowski was said to have used ostrich wings.
In 1500, the Polish Treasury books make reference to hussars. Early on, they were foreign mercenaries, and were called Racowie from "Rascia" a word meaning "of Serbia." They came from the Serbian state of Ras."
http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armiesofthefanatici/DarrenBuxbaum/LaterSerbs/
"Serbian Gussars"
http://ac.bondurand.com/liste332.htm
"Les serbes avaient reconnu la nécessité d'une cavalerie légère, (...) ils développèrent leur propre cavalerie légère, les GUSARS ou USARS, d'où sont venus les hussards."
http://www.armae.com/contemporain/144epeesetdagues.htm
"Originaires de Serbie, les hussards furent des cavaliers d'élite, connus surtout en Hongrie puis en France, et imités par la suite partout en Europe."
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/1b772/a9330/
"The area around the present Zorinsk (Ukrainia) belonged to the Serb Hussar Major Vuyich at the end of the 18th century."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenije_III
" Arsenije III (...) was inaugurating new Serb infantry and hussar regiments that were sent to the ongoing war."
http://www.gatago.com/pl/sci/historia/19850502.html
"Jan Długosz pod rokiem 1463 napisał, że w bitwie nad Sawą, biły się
"Cohors Raczanorum" / Początki husarii w bitwie na Kulikowym Polu
w 1389 r."
--

CcCc

Offline Ultra Requete

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #115 on: January 29, 2008, 03:34:21 AM »
As Chaim (along with most reputable historians) has said on many occasions, iSSlamic "science and innovation" is a fraud. The original muSSlims were arabs who invented NOTHING. Great science and architecture existed in NON-muSSlim Persia, Asyria, Egypt and other non-muSSlim lands. When these lands and people were conquered by the arab-muSSlims this science and innovation was absorbed. It didn't last (as can be seen by observation today) because iSSlam is a religion and culture that inhibits and prevents thought.

BTW,

Welome back, Skip'.

That's true, and welcome back Skippy for the moment I fear it was Sherry the camel humper geting here... ;)
Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

Offline Ultra Requete

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #116 on: January 29, 2008, 03:55:17 AM »
Europe was staring to recover economicly from the end of X century when the Viking/Norman and Hungarian raids stoped, becouse the greeco-roman  knowledge was already there hiden in monasteries and when last of barbarians settled it could be retrived and used again; so already in XIII centuries Europeans were building gothic cathedras higher than any roman biuldings, And Muslimes yes were "good" for some Jews becouse they needed MDs, administrators, merchants just like they need wetern engineers now to operate their oil fields; in reality ME outside Arabia was populated by mayority of those greek, armenian, persian, jewish  dhimis who supported by taxes and expertise the ruling muslime warior aristocracy untill Crusades. After them Muslimes have made the purges and were the mayority ending the golden age. Ever wonder why muslime world never manged to recover the "golden Age" after Mongol invasions in XIII/XIV centuries?
Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #117 on: January 29, 2008, 06:19:42 AM »
As Chaim (along with most reputable historians) has said on many occasions, iSSlamic "science and innovation" is a fraud. The original muSSlims were arabs who invented NOTHING. Great science and architecture existed in NON-muSSlim Persia, Asyria, Egypt and other non-muSSlim lands. When these lands and people were conquered by the arab-muSSlims this science and innovation was absorbed. It didn't last (as can be seen by observation today) because iSSlam is a religion and culture that inhibits and prevents thought.

BTW,

Welome back, Skip'.

That's true, and welcome back Skippy for the moment I fear it was Sherry the camel humper geting here... ;)

I would never let that happen Ultra  ;)

Offline Dexter

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #118 on: January 29, 2008, 07:08:59 AM »
Quote
Europe went into the dark ages because of a barbarian invasion. From there it went forward.

Thank you for proving my point.

Quote
The muSSlims (unlike europe) had NO barbarian invasian and STILL descended into barbarism. What's their excuse?
The history of Islamic defeats at the hands of the West--in trade, technology, printing, science, philosophy, political development, modernization, diplomacy, war--stretches back 600 years. In 1502 Venice warned the Ottoman Sultans of the threat posed to the spice trade by the sea route Vasco de Gama had opened up between Europe and Asia. The Ottomans ignored the warning, just as they ignored many other problems, and the Muslim East eventually felt the results.

Simply, the rise of the west made Islam to sink. In the book The Middle East Bernard Lewis - one of the best Arabists and Islamists in the world says himself the Islamic world was much more advanced then the Europeans, especially because of the what the Muslim created as a result of the meeting of the Arab rich culture and other ancient middle east cultures.

Though the Chinese invented saltpetre gunpowder, and used it in their fireworks, it was the Arabs who worked out that it could be purified using potassium nitrate for military use. Muslim incendiary devices terrified the Crusaders. By the 15th century they had invented both a rocket, which they called a "self-moving and combusting egg", and a torpedo - a self-propelled pear-shaped bomb with a spear at the front which impaled itself in enemy ships and then blew up.

By the 9th century, many Muslim scholars took it for granted that the Earth was a sphere. The proof, said astronomer Ibn Hazm, "is that the Sun is always vertical to a particular spot on Earth". It was 500 years before that realisation dawned on Galileo. The calculations of Muslim astronomers were so accurate that in the 9th century they reckoned the Earth's circumference to be 40,253.4km - less than 200km out. The scholar al-Idrisi took a globe depicting the world to the court of King Roger of Sicily in 1139.

The modern cheque comes from the Arabic saqq, a written vow to pay for goods when they were delivered, to avoid money having to be transported across dangerous terrain. In the 9th century, a Muslim businessman could cash a cheque in China drawn on his bank in Baghdad.

Carpets were regarded as part of Paradise by medieval Muslims, thanks to their advanced weaving techniques, new tinctures from Islamic chemistry and highly developed sense of pattern and arabesque which were the basis of Islam's non-representational art. In contrast, Europe's floors were distinctly earthly, not to say earthy, until Arabian and Persian carpets were introduced. In England, as Erasmus recorded, floors were "covered in rushes, occasionally renewed, but so imperfectly that the bottom layer is left undisturbed, sometimes for 20 years, harbouring expectoration, vomiting, the leakage of dogs and men, ale droppings, scraps of fish, and other abominations not fit to be mentioned". Carpets, unsurprisingly, caught on quickly.

and there are more and more...

Read here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-islamic-inventors-changed-the-world-469452.html

Quote
Oh great. ONE thing they didn't manage to destroy!
:D
A form of chess was played in ancient India but the game was developed into the form we know it today in Persia. From there it spread westward to Europe - where it was introduced by the Moors in Spain in the 10th century - and eastward as far as Japan. The word rook comes from the Persian rukh, which means chariot.

A thousand years before the Wright brothers a Muslim poet, astronomer, musician and engineer named Abbas ibn Firnas made several attempts to construct a flying machine. In 852 he jumped from the minaret of the Grand Mosque in Cordoba using a loose cloak stiffened with wooden struts. He hoped to glide like a bird. He didn't. But the cloak slowed his fall, creating what is thought to be the first parachute, and leaving him with only minor injuries. In 875, aged 70, having perfected a machine of silk and eagles' feathers he tried again, jumping from a mountain. He flew to a significant height and stayed aloft for ten minutes but crashed on landing - concluding, correctly, that it was because he had not given his device a tail so it would stall on landing. Baghdad international airport and a crater on the Moon are named after him.

Quote
To stop moving forward IS 'stalling'. Anthropologists call the australian aborigines an 'arrested culture'. That means it stood still and didn't move forward. It doesn't mean it went in reverse.
Really, stop capitalize the words, it doesn't make you more correct or less correct.
The Australian aborigines culture is 'arrested culture' because they didn't developed a thing but got stucked in the tribal culture, the Chinese didn't so when their culture don't advance, it goes backward.

Quote
The Muslims couldn't go backwards technologically because they NEVER had technology of their own. All they 'invented' was by non-muSSlim cultures and peoples. They were near stonework then. They are near stone-age now. No difference.
This is nonsense! Stop being blind to history because of your hatred to Islam.

Quote
Europe was staring to recover economical from the end of X century when the Viking/Norman and Hungarian raids stoped, becouse the greeco-roman  knowledge was already there hiden in monasteries and when last of barbarians settled it could be retrived and used again; so already in XIII centuries Europeans were building gothic cathedras higher than any roman biuldings, And Muslimes yes were "good" for some Jews becouse they needed MDs, administrators, merchants just like they need wetern engineers now to operate their oil fields; in reality ME outside Arabia was populated by mayority of those greek, armenian, persian, jewish  dhimis who supported by taxes and expertise the ruling muslime warior aristocracy untill Crusades. After them Muslimes have made the purges and were the mayority ending the golden age. Ever wonder why muslime world never manged to recover the "golden Age" after Mongol invasions in XIII/XIV centuries?

I am talking about the 5th century Barbarian invasion, infact the Vikings helped Europe in some ways. The Gothic architecture was the only style that was European made. The Mongol invasion never stopped the Islamic golden age, it actually helped it. When the golden horde converted to Islam and other Mongols tried to take over Egypt it made to Muslims influenced and they started to advance, it's actually good the Arabs stopped them otherwise those Mongols would have probably ruin Jerusalem. Just to refrash your memory, the Mongol invasion started at the 11 century and ended at the 12-13, the Muslim golden age finished in the 14th-15th century or even the 16 century because then the Ottoman empire started to lose from it's power.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #119 on: January 29, 2008, 04:43:35 PM »
Quote
Europe went into the dark ages because of a barbarian invasion. From there it went forward.

Thank you for proving my point.
It proves MY point. Europe didn't just go backwards (from Roman times) of it's own accord. An external catastrophy brought it on in the form of barbarian conquest.

Quote
The muSSlims (unlike europe) had NO barbarian invasian and STILL descended into barbarism. What's their excuse?
The history of Islamic defeats at the hands of the West--in trade, technology, printing, science, philosophy, political development, modernization, diplomacy, war--stretches back 600 years. In 1502 Venice warned the Ottoman Sultans of the threat posed to the spice trade by the sea route Vasco de Gama had opened up between Europe and Asia. The Ottomans ignored the warning, just as they ignored many other problems, and the Muslim East eventually felt the results.

Simply, the rise of the west made Islam to sink. In the book The Middle East Bernard Lewis - one of the best Arabists and Islamists in the world says himself the Islamic world was much more advanced then the Europeans, especially because of the what the Muslim created as a result of the meeting of the Arab rich culture and other ancient middle east cultures.
That is the most illogical nonsense I've read from you. The 'rise' of one culture CANNOT make another decsend into the dark ages unless that new culture invades, occupies and destroys the other totally (as the barbarians did to Rome). The rise of the west is NOT responsible for the 'decline' of iSSlam. Ask yourself this: If your neighbour gets rich tomorrow, does your family get poor?

Though the Chinese invented saltpetre gunpowder, and used it in their fireworks, it was the Arabs who worked out that it could be purified using potassium nitrate for military use. Muslim incendiary devices terrified the Crusaders. By the 15th century they had invented both a rocket, which they called a "self-moving and combusting egg", and a torpedo - a self-propelled pear-shaped bomb with a spear at the front which impaled itself in enemy ships and then blew up.

By the 9th century, many Muslim scholars took it for granted that the Earth was a sphere. The proof, said astronomer Ibn Hazm, "is that the Sun is always vertical to a particular spot on Earth". It was 500 years before that realisation dawned on Galileo. The calculations of Muslim astronomers were so accurate that in the 9th century they reckoned the Earth's circumference to be 40,253.4km - less than 200km out. The scholar al-Idrisi took a globe depicting the world to the court of King Roger of Sicily in 1139.

The modern cheque comes from the Arabic saqq, a written vow to pay for goods when they were delivered, to avoid money having to be transported across dangerous terrain. In the 9th century, a Muslim businessman could cash a cheque in China drawn on his bank in Baghdad.

Carpets were regarded as part of Paradise by medieval Muslims, thanks to their advanced weaving techniques, new tinctures from Islamic chemistry and highly developed sense of pattern and arabesque which were the basis of Islam's non-representational art. In contrast, Europe's floors were distinctly earthly, not to say earthy, until Arabian and Persian carpets were introduced. In England, as Erasmus recorded, floors were "covered in rushes, occasionally renewed, but so imperfectly that the bottom layer is left undisturbed, sometimes for 20 years, harbouring expectoration, vomiting, the leakage of dogs and men, ale droppings, scraps of fish, and other abominations not fit to be mentioned". Carpets, unsurprisingly, caught on quickly.

and there are more and more...

Read here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-islamic-inventors-changed-the-world-469452.html

Quote
Oh great. ONE thing they didn't manage to destroy!
:D
A form of chess was played in ancient India but the game was developed into the form we know it today in Persia. From there it spread westward to Europe - where it was introduced by the Moors in Spain in the 10th century - and eastward as far as Japan. The word rook comes from the Persian rukh, which means chariot.

A thousand years before the Wright brothers a Muslim poet, astronomer, musician and engineer named Abbas ibn Firnas made several attempts to construct a flying machine. In 852 he jumped from the minaret of the Grand Mosque in Cordoba using a loose cloak stiffened with wooden struts. He hoped to glide like a bird. He didn't. But the cloak slowed his fall, creating what is thought to be the first parachute, and leaving him with only minor injuries. In 875, aged 70, having perfected a machine of silk and eagles' feathers he tried again, jumping from a mountain. He flew to a significant height and stayed aloft for ten minutes but crashed on landing - concluding, correctly, that it was because he had not given his device a tail so it would stall on landing. Baghdad international airport and a crater on the Moon are named after him.
 Judaism already knew the Earth was round.

You can rattle of a list as long as you like of iSSlamic 'discoveries' but the fact is most of them were already in place in non-iSSlamic lands before iSSlam conquered them. Without the gifts of Greece, India, Persia and Egypt iSSlam would never have moved out of the 7th century.


Quote
To stop moving forward IS 'stalling'. Anthropologists call the australian aborigines an 'arrested culture'. That means it stood still and didn't move forward. It doesn't mean it went in reverse.
Really, stop capitalize the words, it doesn't make you more correct or less correct.
The Australian aborigines culture is 'arrested culture' because they didn't developed a thing but got stucked in the tribal culture, the Chinese didn't so when their culture don't advance, it goes backward.

No. Going forwards is advancing, going backwards is retreating, not moving either way is stalling. That's common logic. It applies to abbos, chinese AND arabs.

Quote
The Muslims couldn't go backwards technologically because they NEVER had technology of their own. All they 'invented' was by non-muSSlim cultures and peoples. They were near stonework then. They are near stone-age now. No difference.
This is nonsense! Stop being blind to history because of your hatred to Islam.

No. You stop being so naive as to swallow taqqiya. The main body of historical schollars the world over have debunked the myths of iSSlamic innovation. It is a fraud just as the myth of black african 'civilisation'.

Quote
Europe was staring to recover economical from the end of X century when the Viking/Norman and Hungarian raids stoped, becouse the greeco-roman  knowledge was already there hiden in monasteries and when last of barbarians settled it could be retrived and used again; so already in XIII centuries Europeans were building gothic cathedras higher than any roman biuldings, And Muslimes yes were "good" for some Jews becouse they needed MDs, administrators, merchants just like they need wetern engineers now to operate their oil fields; in reality ME outside Arabia was populated by mayority of those greek, armenian, persian, jewish  dhimis who supported by taxes and expertise the ruling muslime warior aristocracy untill Crusades. After them Muslimes have made the purges and were the mayority ending the golden age. Ever wonder why muslime world never manged to recover the "golden Age" after Mongol invasions in XIII/XIV centuries?

I am talking about the 5th century Barbarian invasion, infact the Vikings helped Europe in some ways. The Gothic architecture was the only style that was European made. The Mongol invasion never stopped the Islamic golden age, it actually helped it. When the golden horde converted to Islam and other Mongols tried to take over Egypt it made to Muslims influenced and they started to advance, it's actually good the Arabs stopped them otherwise those Mongols would have probably ruin Jerusalem. Just to refrash your memory, the Mongol invasion started at the 11 century and ended at the 12-13, the Muslim golden age finished in the 14th-15th century or even the 16 century because then the Ottoman empire started to lose from it's power.

The bottom line here is historical evidence as well as common sense and logic.

NO civilisation in the history has risen up to great heights of learning and wisdom and then retreated into savagery of it's own accord. Civilisations that declined did so because of external invasion and destruction like the Romans and Egyptions. Others simply marked time and stood still for a period like China.

iSSlam on the other hand was NOT invaded or desroyed by barbarians. Yes the mongols gave them a bloody nose but not to the extent that the barbarians did to Rome. Nor did iSSlam simply stand still like China. iSSlam was a primative, savage culture adopted by primative savages. It milked the intellectual benefits from non-muSSlims that it conquered. Because iSSlam stifles thinking it could not maintain it's supposed 'golden age' because the non-muSSlim people it conquered were now affected by the same poison. Simple.

iSSlam is like a lazy ignorant bum who lives in poverty and achieves nothing. He then  inherits a business from a dead brother. He milks the business and does well for ten or fifteen years but eventually destroys the business because he is a lazy bum. He then goes back into poverty.

That's iSSlam.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #120 on: January 29, 2008, 06:50:02 PM »
Quote
It proves MY point. Europe didn't just go backwards (from Roman times) of it's own accord. An external catastrophy brought it on in the form of barbarian conquest.
It went backwards to the time BEFOR the Roman times, when the Italian, German and Celtic tribes fought each other.


Quote
That is the most illogical nonsense I've read from you. The 'rise' of one culture CANNOT make another decsend into the dark ages unless that new culture invades, occupies and destroys the other totally (as the barbarians did to Rome). The rise of the west is NOT responsible for the 'decline' of iSSlam. Ask yourself this: If your neighbour gets rich tomorrow, does your family get poor?
Please, stop being so "logical" because your logic is destroying the historical facts. When a cultural center becomes stronger then the other cultural center, that is it's enemy, the stronger make the other cultural center as a far-flung place in the world, ecomomiclly, culturally and others. When Islam rose it stopped the west of advencing BECAUSE of the war between those cultures that never let the weasterns, who were inferior culturaly from the beggining, going forward.


Quote
Judaism already knew the Earth was round.
No, it didn't until the 13th century. I was talking  about the diameter of the earth.

Quote
You can rattle of a list as long as you like  of iSSlamic 'discoveries' but the fact is most of  them were already in place in non-iSSlamic lands  before iSSlam conquered them. Without the gifts of  Greece, India, Persia and Egypt iSSlam would never  have moved out of the 7th century.
I have no doubt, but no metter what you can't deny  the Islamic science, no one can argue with facts!

Quote
No. Going forwards is advancing, going  backwards is retreating, not moving either way is  stalling. That's common logic. It applies to abbos,  chinese AND arabs.

The bottom line here is historical evidence  as well as common sense and logic.
There is no such thing as "stalling" unless you  live in a lone cave in a middle of a jongel.

The Chinese had a golden age. The Chinese golden  age in the Tang Dynasty (618-907) describes a  period of peace when arts, trade, and literature  prospered.
In addition to natural calamities and jiedushi  amassing autonomous control, the Huang Chao  Rebellion (875–884) resulted in the sacking of both  Chang'an and Luoyang, and took an entire decade to  suppress. Although the rebellion was defeated by  the Tang, it never recovered from that crucial  blow, weakening it for the future military powers  to take over. There were also large groups of  bandits, in the size of small armies, that ravaged  the countryside in the last years of the Tang, who  smuggled illicit salt, ambushed merchants and  convoys, and even besieged several walled cities.

A certain Zhu Wen (originally a salt smuggler) who  had served under the rebel Huang had later  surrendered to Tang forces, his military merit in  betraying and defeating Huang's forces meaning  rapid military promotions for him. In 907, after  almost 300 years in power, the dynasty was ended  when this military governor, Zhu Wen (known soon  after as Taizu of Later Liang), deposed the last  emperor of Tang, Emperor Ai of Tang, and took the  throne for himself. He established his Later Liang  Dynasty, which thereby inaugurated the Five  Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period. A year later,  the deposed Emperor Ai was poisoned to death by Zhu  Wen.

Although cast in a negative light by many for  usurping power from the Tang, Zhu Wen turned out to  be a skilled administrator. Emperor Taizu of Later  Liang was also responsible for the building of a  large seawall, new walls and roads for the  burgeoning city of Hangzhou, which would later  become the capital of the Southern Song Dynasty.

After that the Chinese were back to times befor the  golden age and only 300-400 years later the  mongolian invasion changed it and made Chinese back  on the king's road. Ah, and, please stop talking  about "History evidences" while you haven't  provided a single, one, historical evidence for  your claims.

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No. You stop being so naive as to swallow  taqqiya. The main body of historical schollars the  world over have debunked the myths of iSSlamic  innovation. It is a fraud just as the myth of black  african 'civilisation'.
"No-No", "Taqqiya", "Taqqiya", as usaual.

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NO civilisation in the history has risen up  to great heights of learning and wisdom and then  retreated into savagery of it's own accord.  Civilisations that declined did so because of  external invasion and destruction like the Romans  and Egyptions. Others simply marked time and stood  still for a period like China.

iSSlam on the other hand was NOT invaded or  desroyed by barbarians. Yes the mongols gave them a  bloody nose but not to the extent that the  barbarians did to Rome. Nor did iSSlam simply stand  still like China. iSSlam was a primative, savage  culture adopted by primative savages. It milked the  intellectual benefits from non-muSSlims that it  conquered. Because iSSlam stifles thinking it could  not maintain it's supposed 'golden age' because the  non-muSSlim people it conquered were now affected  by the same poison. Simple.

iSSlam is like a lazy ignorant bum who lives in  poverty and achieves nothing. He then  inherits a  business from a dead brother. He milks the business  and does well for ten or fifteen years but  eventually destroys the business because he is a  lazy bum. He then goes back into poverty.

That's iSSlam.

The Islamic and the European civilisations did!!  The thing is you refuse to understand it!!

Newman, you didn't gave any historical evidences  for your claims, that are wronged and were  disproved by me and are disproved by many  historions as-well as experts in Middle Eastern  affairs as Bernard Lewis and Bat Ye'or. I already  expleind to you what happend to Islam after the 13 -16/17 century. When Wahabbism rais Islam completly  got back to the 7th century, befor that it still  was in pretty good situation especielly in the  Ottoman empire. When I said the Mongols helped the  Islamic golden age I was wrong, the Mongolian  invasion (HERE IS YOU INVASION!) was one of the  reasons the Islamic world started to sink. Islamic  Spain was intellectually lively but politically  chaotic Dictator AlMansur played off aristocracy,  mercenary soldiers and slave bureaucracy against  each other. After his death, Spain collapsed into  revolt and civil war, and fragmented into small  states. the advancing of Christian Spain  facilitated. Eastern Islam moved away from  rationalist theology toward mysticism, as the rise  of Sufism. Sack of Baghdad destroyed the greatest  remaining Islamic cultural centers. Death of Caliph  a shattering blow to Islamic self-confidence, the  loss of Caliphate meant loss of unifying force in  Islam

Your claims are bias and show your lack on  knowledge of Islam and it's history. The Mongol invasion of the Islamic heartland had mixed effects. On one hand, the Islamic world never regained its previous power. Much of the six centuries of Islamic scholarship, culture, and infrastructure was destroyed as the invaders burned libraries, replaced mosques with Buddhist temples, and destroyed intricate irrigation systems. In fact, the irrigation equipment necessary for farming in the Mesopotamian desert was not rebuilt until the 20th century. Additionally, Gaykhatu's attempt to introduce paper money at the end of the 13th century virtually destroyed trade in the region, from which it was difficult to recover.

Here is a map:
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/imageislam/hulagu1294.gif

Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #121 on: January 29, 2008, 07:16:59 PM »
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It proves MY point. Europe didn't just go backwards (from Roman times) of it's own accord. An external catastrophy brought it on in the form of barbarian conquest.
It went backwards to the time BEFOR the Roman times, when the Italian, German and Celtic tribes fought each other.
It went backwards because of an invasion by barbarians, not because of it's own stupid ideology like iSSlam did.

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That is the most illogical nonsense I've read from you. The 'rise' of one culture CANNOT make another decsend into the dark ages unless that new culture invades, occupies and destroys the other totally (as the barbarians did to Rome). The rise of the west is NOT responsible for the 'decline' of iSSlam. Ask yourself this: If your neighbour gets rich tomorrow, does your family get poor?
Please, stop being so "logical" because your logic is destroying the historical facts. When a cultural center becomes stronger then the other cultural center, that is it's enemy, the stronger make the other cultural center as a far-flung place in the world, ecomomiclly, culturally and others. When Islam rose it stopped the west of advencing BECAUSE of the war between those cultures that never let the weasterns, who were inferior culturaly from the beggining, going forward.
Wrong again. Asia has been getting economically stronger but the west is not going back to the 15th century.

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Judaism already knew the Earth was round.
No, it didn't until the 13th century. I was talking  about the diameter of the earth.

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You can rattle of a list as long as you like  of iSSlamic 'discoveries' but the fact is most of  them were already in place in non-iSSlamic lands  before iSSlam conquered them. Without the gifts of  Greece, India, Persia and Egypt iSSlam would never  have moved out of the 7th century.
I have no doubt, but no metter what you can't deny  the Islamic science, no one can argue with facts!
Nobody denies the fact that iSSlam had a golden age. But it's because of non-muSSlims that they conquered not because of muSSlims.

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No. Going forwards is advancing, going  backwards is retreating, not moving either way is  stalling. That's common logic. It applies to abbos,  chinese AND arabs.

The bottom line here is historical evidence  as well as common sense and logic.
There is no such thing as "stalling" unless you  live in a lone cave in a middle of a jongel.

Yes there is. When you learn to drive you'll discover there is forward, neutral and reverse.

The Chinese had a golden age. The Chinese golden  age in the Tang Dynasty (618-907) describes a  period of peace when arts, trade, and literature  prospered.
In addition to natural calamities and jiedushi  amassing autonomous control, the Huang Chao  Rebellion (875–884) resulted in the sacking of both  Chang'an and Luoyang, and took an entire decade to  suppress. Although the rebellion was defeated by  the Tang, it never recovered from that crucial  blow, weakening it for the future military powers  to take over. There were also large groups of  bandits, in the size of small armies, that ravaged  the countryside in the last years of the Tang, who  smuggled illicit salt, ambushed merchants and  convoys, and even besieged several walled cities.

A certain Zhu Wen (originally a salt smuggler) who  had served under the rebel Huang had later  surrendered to Tang forces, his military merit in  betraying and defeating Huang's forces meaning  rapid military promotions for him. In 907, after  almost 300 years in power, the dynasty was ended  when this military governor, Zhu Wen (known soon  after as Taizu of Later Liang), deposed the last  emperor of Tang, Emperor Ai of Tang, and took the  throne for himself. He established his Later Liang  Dynasty, which thereby inaugurated the Five  Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period. A year later,  the deposed Emperor Ai was poisoned to death by Zhu  Wen.

Although cast in a negative light by many for  usurping power from the Tang, Zhu Wen turned out to  be a skilled administrator. Emperor Taizu of Later  Liang was also responsible for the building of a  large seawall, new walls and roads for the  burgeoning city of Hangzhou, which would later  become the capital of the Southern Song Dynasty.

After that the Chinese were back to times befor the  golden age and only 300-400 years later the  mongolian invasion changed it and made Chinese back  on the king's road. Ah, and, please stop talking  about "History evidences" while you haven't  provided a single, one, historical evidence for  your claims.
I don't need to spend hours plucking quotes from the web. A quote from a web page is not proof but just another opinion. I along with the other members here have seen enough documentaries on pay-TV, read enough history books and heard enough historians discuss this issue to know the real truth. Those of us who are dry behind the ears can tell taqqiya from fact.

Quote
No. You stop being so naive as to swallow  taqqiya. The main body of historical schollars the  world over have debunked the myths of iSSlamic  innovation. It is a fraud just as the myth of black  african 'civilisation'.
"No-No", "Taqqiya", "Taqqiya", as usaual.

Quote
NO civilisation in the history has risen up  to great heights of learning and wisdom and then  retreated into savagery of it's own accord.  Civilisations that declined did so because of  external invasion and destruction like the Romans  and Egyptions. Others simply marked time and stood  still for a period like China.

iSSlam on the other hand was NOT invaded or  desroyed by barbarians. Yes the mongols gave them a  bloody nose but not to the extent that the  barbarians did to Rome. Nor did iSSlam simply stand  still like China. iSSlam was a primative, savage  culture adopted by primative savages. It milked the  intellectual benefits from non-muSSlims that it  conquered. Because iSSlam stifles thinking it could  not maintain it's supposed 'golden age' because the  non-muSSlim people it conquered were now affected  by the same poison. Simple.

iSSlam is like a lazy ignorant bum who lives in  poverty and achieves nothing. He then  inherits a  business from a dead brother. He milks the business  and does well for ten or fifteen years but  eventually destroys the business because he is a  lazy bum. He then goes back into poverty.

That's iSSlam.

The Islamic and the European civilisations did!!  The thing is you refuse to understand it!!

I repeat:Europe went backwards because of an invasion by barbarians, not because of it's own stupid ideology like iSSlam did

Newman, you didn't gave any historical evidences  for your claims, that are wronged and were  disproved by me and are disproved by many  historions as-well as experts in Middle Eastern  affairs as Bernard Lewis and Bat Ye'or.
I repeat: I don't need to spend hours plucking quotes from the web. A quote from a web page is not proof but just another opinion. I along with the other members here have seen enough documentaries on pay-TV, read enough history books and heard enough historians discuss this issue to know the real truth. Those of us who are dry behind the ears can tell taqqiya from fact.

I already  expleind to you what happend to Islam after the 13 -16/17 century. When Wahabbism rais Islam completly  got back to the 7th century, befor that it still  was in pretty good situation especielly in the  Ottoman empire. When I said the Mongols helped the  Islamic golden age I was wrong, the Mongolian  invasion (HERE IS YOU INVASION!) was one of the  reasons the Islamic world started to sink. Islamic  Spain was intellectually lively but politically  chaotic Dictator AlMansur played off aristocracy,  mercenary soldiers and slave bureaucracy against  each other. After his death, Spain collapsed into  revolt and civil war, and fragmented into small  states. the advancing of Christian Spain  facilitated. Eastern Islam moved away from  rationalist theology toward mysticism, as the rise  of Sufism. Sack of Baghdad destroyed the greatest  remaining Islamic cultural centers. Death of Caliph  a shattering blow to Islamic self-confidence, the  loss of Caliphate meant loss of unifying force in  Islam
There was no unity amongst Europeans..........but they did OK.

Your claims are bias and show your lack on  knowledge of Islam and it's history. The Mongol invasion of the Islamic heartland had mixed effects. On one hand, the Islamic world never regained its previous power. Much of the six centuries of Islamic scholarship, culture, and infrastructure was destroyed as the invaders burned libraries, replaced mosques with Buddhist temples, and destroyed intricate irrigation systems. In fact, the irrigation equipment necessary for farming in the Mesopotamian desert was not rebuilt until the 20th century. Additionally, Gaykhatu's attempt to introduce paper money at the end of the 13th century virtually destroyed trade in the region, from which it was difficult to recover.
Europe has had wars, plagues, purges.......you name it. An intellectually capable people recover from set backs. A superior culture overcomes catastrophies in time. Europe has, iSSlam has not. Why? Because it is an inferior culture.

Here is a map:
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/imageislam/hulagu1294.gif



Dexter, The leftist teachers in Israel need to be killed before they brainwash everybody else!

Offline Dexter

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #122 on: January 29, 2008, 07:27:48 PM »
Quote
It went backwards because of an invasion by barbarians, not because of it's own stupid ideology like iSSlam did.
Islam also went back because of the Mongol invasion and other things that happend.

Quote
Wrong again. Asia has been getting economically stronger but the west is not going back to the 15th century.
The parts of Asia that get stronger, get stronger because they hold in the weastern culture. Asian states that don't have Weastern culture in terms of productivity and other aspects are faltering states.

Quote
Nobody denies the fact that iSSlam had a golden age. But it's because of non-muSSlims that they conquered not because of muSSlims.
It's both, don't forget that the people they conquered went through Arabization and converted to Islam and became, infact, Arabs.

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Yes there is. When you learn to drive you'll discover there is forward, neutral and reverse.
That's the best claim and analogy I've ever heard, way the go!

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I don't need to spend hours plucking quotes from the web. A quote from a web page is not proof but just another opinion. I along with the other members here have seen enough documentaries on pay-TV, read enough history books and heard enough historians discuss this issue to know the real truth. Those of us who are dry behind the ears can tell taqqiya from fact.
Well, Mr. Newman, disprove it!

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I repeat:Europe went backwards because of an invasion by barbarians, not because of it's own stupid ideology like iSSlam did
I repeat as well: Islam went backwards because of an invasion by the Mongols and other reasons.

Quote
I repeat: I don't need to spend hours plucking quotes from the web. A quote from a web page is not proof but just another opinion. I along with the other members here have seen enough documentaries on pay-TV, read enough history books and heard enough historians discuss this issue to know the real truth. Those of us who are dry behind the ears can tell taqqiya from fact.
This are not opinions, it's facts. At least give me a proofe for you claims...

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There was no unity amongst Europeans..........but they did OK.
The Muslims didn't.

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Europe has had wars, plagues, purges.......you name it. An intellectually capable people recover from set backs. A superior culture overcomes catastrophies in time. Europe has, iSSlam has not. Why? Because it is an inferior culture.

Islam recovered of Muhammad's tribal culture, now it needs to become modern, the fact that we live in a time after the weastern recovered and Islam sank doesn't mean that in the future the opposite will happen, you'll never know.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Dexter

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #123 on: January 29, 2008, 07:31:11 PM »
The only one that brainwashed me is Bernard Lewis.

We don't studie about Muslims at all.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

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Re: Skippy's statement, for her JTF Friends_
« Reply #124 on: January 29, 2008, 07:33:41 PM »
The only one that brainwashed me is Bernard Lewis.

We don't studie about Muslims at all.

May be you should, know thy enemy.