Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
RAMBAM and sovereignty - thread spawned off of an askjudea questions thread.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever ---According to the Rambam, he does not say we can not have Prophesy in our time as other commentators do. But I will move on to another proof. What about the commandment "to not let idolatrers live in the land of Israel", that seems pretty clear cut that we must settle the land of Israel first to enforce this? Or what about the commandment that "levites shall not share in the spoil of the conquest of the land", this has the prerequisite that the Jews are conquering the Land of Israel. For them to do this they must first control a portion of the land. And if you answer that this only is supposed to happen in Massianic times, in Hilchot Melachim the Rambam doesn't write about the Jews going up to Israel from Galut with their appointed King and taking it over, he talks about the Jews already living in Israel appointing a King.
--- End quote ---
We clearly have not had prophets since melachi.
prophecy , rambam describes in the guide as Level 3. Dreams and visions.
(perhaps ruach hakodesh is possible, but that does not make one a Navi-prophet. And it is below level 3 ).
RAMBAM does say prophecy ceased..
see "The Guide", 2:36 (google found me 2:45 which was close enough for me to view previous chapters and read the lot)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp123.htm
"
This is a real fact, and the cause is evident; the pre-requisites [of prophecy] have been lost. In the Messianic period--may it soon commence--prophecy will therefore again be in our midst, as has been promised by G-d.
"
Also, Handbook of jewish thought vol 1, p111, 6:86, gives a ton of references that prophecy ceased . It gives the date as 40 years after the building/construction of the 2nd temple. 3408+40=3448 = (seems to me) 312BCE
(note- handbook... was written based on rabbi aryeh kaplan`s manuscripts. He died before it was published. Some of his references are wrong).
However.. I may be wrong earlier..
when I mentioned chapter 1 halacha 3, says a king must be appointed by a prophet. It does. But
I just found
11:3, where the RAMBAM mentions rabbi akiva following *King* Bar Kozibah( bar kochbah).
Bar Kochba lived around 132CE. That is after prophecy ceased. So how could be be a king, if there was no prophet to appoint him.???
That does call into question what the RAMBAM means by King. But the fact remains that he milchemet reshut and milchemet mitzva are written of in hilchot melachim, under the assumption that there is a King And we do not have a King today - at least nobody claims we do!
It may not always be obvious what from hilchot melachim does require a king and what does not..
Your post argued to me as if I take the position that we cannot be there en masse. Maybe, but I was not arguing that.
You argued that the RAMBAM is not talking of us getting a king in galus, and going to israel. And you argued that we have to control land in order to conquer. I agree with the former. But regarding the latter, we could live there under some other soveregnty, appoint a King, be inspired to fight and conquer.
There are 2 contentious issues of religious zionism that need to be argued.
- jewish sovereignty per se
- living there en masse
note- some non zionists accept both those things(e.g. a lubavitcher i spoke to).. but they do not accept that this is the beginning of the redemption, and they see zionism as a secular thing.
judeaoncapita has argued that we can be there en masse.. Good arguments. I have to put those arguments to a non zionist..
And he also put a strong argument that the RAMBAN is for conquering the land. Again, Ihave to put that to a non zionist.
so let`s stick to the question of the RAMBAM and sovereignty
I only have hilchot melachim, and a few others and a talmud, in english. So if those examples you gave, about the idolators, and the tithe, are in there, then do givem e the reference.. you should include the reference anyway really. Then I can look it up and see if it is blatantly involving a King, or not.. It may be worth starting a new thread for it, since I do not want to hijack judeaoncapita`s thread! This thread must still serve its purpose of his questions to him (presumably consecutively !).
The apparent change in definition of King has thrown me a bit. But nevertheless, we do not have a King today- at least nobody thinks we do.
q_q_:
you conceded that it does require a Prophet to appoint a King. chapter 1 halacha 3.
And then you said
--- Quote from: jdl4ever ---1. As it is irrelevant if a Prophet must appoint the King as the Rambam doesn't exclude prophesy from before the Massianic era like other commentators do.
2. In order for a prophet to appoint a King of Israel, the Jews must settle the land of Israel to begin with ... otherwise what are they appointing a King over, Babel? And don't answer that the Rambam is only referring to a Messianic King as he never says anywhere in the first Chapter that the King appointed must be the Massiah.
--- End quote ---
prophecy is a prophecy - a noun. Prophesy is a verb. To prophesy.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=63475&dict=CALD
Regarding your point 1.
The RAMBAM does say prophecy ceased. So you will have to concede that too.
The Guide 2:36
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp123.htm
This is a real fact, and the cause is evident; the pre-requisites [of prophecy] have been lost. In the Messianic period--may it soon commence--prophecy will therefore again be in our midst, as has been promised by God.
Regarding your point 2
I do not have a firm argument against that
Perhaps.. They would have to be settled there . If it is that order.. Appoint a King, before you know moshiach has come.
But note that Rabbi Akiva followed Bar Kochba as moshiach, when I imagine he was not a King, at least not an appointed King.. since Bar Kochba lived after prophecy had ceased.
Of course, Bar Kochba was living in israel..
I have recently discovered that some non zionists think Yishuv Haaretz is not an obligation in every generation.. I was not aware of that. I will put that argument to a non zionist. I was not aware.
Of course, if the RAMBAM is right that there moshiach and messianic times will not come in a miraculous manner ( i was taught in primary school.. expect eliyahu hanavi to come down from heaven in a firy chariot) then that would be an argument to settle there, else how would moshiach come.. (we know he will come, regardless though.. which is perhaps a theoretical contradiction with the rambam).
q_q_:
When I said based on ch11 that you quoted, that he must be appointed King.. I take that back.
The RAMBAM does say that a messianic king will arise.
But it is impossible that he is appointed King initially.. Because that would require prophecy to be restored. Yet RAMBAM says in the beginning, if he fights wars, we can only presume he is moshiach. Only later, do we -know-. Surely if prophecy was restored, we would -know-. So I don`t think appointing him king would be step 1.
Now, regarding your poitn 2, it is trivial.
--- Quote from: jdl4ever ---2. In order for a prophet to appoint a King of Israel, the Jews must settle the land of Israel to begin with ... otherwise what are they appointing a King over, Babel? And don't answer that the Rambam is only referring to a Messianic King as he never says anywhere in the first Chapter that the King appointed must be the Massiah.
--- End quote ---
First of all, your interpretation does not make sense. As mentioned.
Secondly, there have always been jews living in israel. Moshiach could come in israel, or in america. Nothing stopping him.
Obviously, if/when he is appointed King, he would be appointed King of israel. Don`t play games
jdl4ever:
You have answered the question for me. The Rambam does not believe in relying on Miracles. In order to appoint a King, the land must be under Jewish sovereignty as it was before the Jews appointed Shaul to be King. It is impossible to appoint a King if the land is not under Jewish sovereity since the Gentiles occupying the land will see this as a threat and attack us like the Progroms in Israel in the 1920's that occured because the Arabs were upset over the Jews living there ... just imagine what a progrom that would have been if we actually appointed a King! This is how the Rambam thinks, he doesn't rely on miracles but thinks rationally and learns his lessons from Jewish History and what the Prophets did previously.
I was also bothered by the R' Akivah thing the Rambam stated and thought that this means that he doesn't require a Prophet, but you showed me that he did say we need a Propeht! So this is a good question, I can't figure it out.
I still stick to what I said that the Rambam does not say the Massiah has to come for prophesy to return. It is very clear if you read the Chapter on Prophesy in the Mishnah Torah and the one you posted in the Guide to the Perplexed, that the Massiah is not a prerequisite for prophesy and as proof for this the Massiah isn't even menchaned in the Mishnah Torah Chapter. What bothers you about the Rambam saying "the interruption of prophecy during the exile ... In the Messianic period--may it soon commence--prophecy will therefore again be in our midst, as has been promised by G-d" if you read carefully is not saying that the Massiah will come first and then prophesy will commense, but it is saying that during the Massianic period in general prophesy will return. It is impossible to know when the Messianic era is until the Massiah comes or a prophet states so; as we can only know that from hindsight. We may very well be in the Messianic period now and not even know it if the Massiah is coming in the near future (which is unknown how many years is considered the near future). As proof for what I stated is that the Torah itself doesn't make the Massiah a prerequisite for Prophesy. This is stated directly by the last verses in Melachi that Eliah the prophet will come before the Massiah to perpare us for its coming and this is repeated by the Rambam in Hilchot Melachim, where he states that this will occur even before the war of Gog and Maggog. So we will have no clue that it is the Messianic era until a Prophet who already an established Prophet Who's Prophesies are proven correct prophesises about the Masssiah coming.
judeanoncapta:
q_q_, it is also a fact that most of the perushim on the rambam say that you only need a sanhedrin to appoint a king.
And they also bring the Talmudh which says that you only need a sanhedrin, not a prophet.
They are actually unable to understand why the rambam says that you need a prophet.
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