Author Topic: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.  (Read 26863 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lubab

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1641
I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim was asked about suicide and he said that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.

I was horrified by this and am registering my public disagreement here. As much as I love you Chaim, I must represent today that this does not represent the Torah view.

Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.

I was very surprised by Chaim's answer and I hope he will correct the record ASAP and if I am wrong I would like to hear why and I will reconsider, but I am quite certain that I am not wrong here and I want to defend what I believe to be the Torah position on the topic.

Thank you.

And i don't mean any disrespect whatsoever to the Chaim, the great Jewish hero, whom I love like a brother.

Lubab

New Edit: P.S. As I explain later in this thread I am NOT referring to the debate about whether you can "pull the plug"...the question was about suicide, which means doing something proactive to directly end the life by either the patient or the doctor or someone else.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 02:08:18 PM by lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2008, 01:29:35 PM »
I was sort of thinking the same way, (except for the revealing of secrets which does sound somewhat right, allthought I dont know). Lubab I want to ask you- is it concidered suicide if one prays or while praying asks or thinks of G-d killing him/her? Or someone saying something like "please G-d take me from this low world, and bring me closer to you in the higher spiriutal worlds" etc.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline jdl4ever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2000
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2008, 02:52:35 PM »
My father asked a trusted Rabbi about DNR and he said that according to the Torah it is permitted if the person has less than a year to live since he is permitted to refuse medical treatment in such a case.  I myself am ignorant in this subject.  Suicide is forbidden of course. 
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2008, 03:08:04 PM »
Euthanasia, or so called "mercy killing" is another form of murder if it is non-voluntary, especially when the patient is in a coma or something. If it is voluntary it is like suicide because you never know even the slightest possibility could arise for a miraculous cure or recovary. If God hasn't let the time for the person to die, come even though they are terminally ill then why should they take their own life.

However if a person is nearly brain dead but being kept alive artificially by a life-support machine, then I think there is some controversy.

Offline DownwithIslam

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4247
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2008, 03:12:07 PM »
I totally agree with Chaim on this. He wasn't saying that euthanasia was justified, he was saying that if their is absolutely no chance the person would survive, why should the person have to be tortured further? He wasn't saying that people could just kill themselves left and right.
I am urinating on a Koran.

Offline Dexter

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2005
  • צֶדֶק צֶדֶק, תִּרְדֹּף
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2008, 03:18:05 PM »
Because it's not allowed to suicide acorrding to Judaism.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline TorahZionist

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 646
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2008, 03:22:38 PM »
http://www.medethics.org.il/articles/JME/JMEM10/JMEM.10.5.asp
Quote
...

Quality and Sanctity of Life

Rabbi Feinstein explicitly endorses the concept of the sanctity of life by stating “it is, or should be, absolutely clear, without any doubt, to anyone who has studied our holy Torah and who fears God, that one must heal or save every individual without any differentiation based upon his intelligence or physical stamina,”[12] but in other contexts he relates to the concept of quality of life. In answer to a question of whether there are patients who should not be treated? He responds “this question obviously refers to a terminally ill patient who can live for only several weeks or months at most. Such patients often should not be treated. The key concern is their quality of life.”[13] Given the value of life in Rabbi Feinstein’s thinking, we must understand why in this situation quality of life, particularly the burden of pain, becomes the deciding factor. Based on the above-mentioned duty principle, we think Rabbi Feinstein himself provides the answer. “It may very well be that there is no biblical obligation to cure such a patient, or rather attempt to prolong his life. The commandment “And he may heal” may not apply to a [physican treating a] patient for whom there is no potential for healing.”[14] Quality of life becomes a dominant factor when there is no hope to cure the patient and hence no normative obligation. Rabbi Feinstein is also very concerned about the quality of life of a dying patient in concert with the modern hospice movement, and rules that regarding a dying patient “it is certainly forbidden to cause any unnecessary pain to the patient. If no medical care is indicated, there is no rational reason why routine blood chemistry should be done on the patient…..Only that which is clearly for the patient’s benefit should be done….. The imminence of death does not relieve the physician from the obligation to do everything for the comfort of the patient.”[15] It is clear to Rabbi Feinstein that for the duty-bound physician other normative obligations such as “Love your neighbor as yourself” certainly apply to dying patients, and there is still much a doctor can do for these patients, such as relieving suffering. However, he fervently opposes any form of active euthanasia.[16]

...

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2008, 04:33:02 PM »
I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.

kellymaureen

  • Guest
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2008, 04:46:28 PM »
I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.

You are right!
I watched cancer eat through my aunt to the point that her bones would shatter each time they tried to move her.  She was kept doped to the eyeballs but still would scream out in agony once in a while.  Sometimes death is better than life. 

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2008, 05:08:09 PM »
I totally agree with Chaim on this. He wasn't saying that euthanasia was justified, he was saying that if their is absolutely no chance the person would survive, why should the person have to be tortured further? He wasn't saying that people could just kill themselves left and right.

Who certifies that there is absolutely no chance of survival?

I read a story somewhere about a woman with terminal cancer, who was admitted Euthanasia because she was affirmed that she only had 2 months to live and was in constant agony. It was later discovered that she was actually in remission.


Offline Ultra Requete

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2383
  • United We Stand, Dived We'll Fall.
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2008, 05:18:58 PM »
How un perfect man can judge when his hour come? That's thing only G-d Know. Suicide or so called euthnasia shud never be publicly excused or justified.   
Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12560
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2008, 05:22:10 PM »
It should be a case by case situation with the preferred decision to choose life over death.

The examples are way too many to mention when death is more acceptable over life in this situation. All I can say is that the overwhelming majority of the time, life is the best choice.  But I will refrain from saying that it is the best choice 100% of the time. I don't think it is. However, it is really close to a 100% of the time.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2008, 05:24:11 PM »
I think Chaim may be right if there is ZERO chance of recovery and they are suffering badly.  You can put on a timer on the machine or something so you are not technically doing it yourself.  But I don't remember exactly.  I'm pretty sure at the point where a person's recovery to consciousness is 100% impossible without a doubt they are considered already halachically dead, aren't they?

Offline Salty German

  • New JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2008, 05:24:22 PM »
I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.



Yes, it's fascinating to see young people in the peak of their health pontificating on whether seriously ill, desperately suffering people have the right to choose to end their pain or not.   ::)

Quite frankly I think it's frightening that some people think that God might send down a 'miraculous cure'.  The Orthodox Jews have the right to impose whatever they want on their own community, but the great masses of the gentiles should not be beholden to heavenly precepts which are of no concern to them.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2008, 05:28:58 PM »
I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.



Yes, it's fascinating to see young people in the peak of their health pontificating on whether seriously ill, desperately suffering people have the right to choose to end their pain or not.   ::)

Quite frankly I think it's frightening that some people think that G-d might send down a 'miraculous cure'.  The Orthodox Jews have the right to impose whatever they want on their own community, but the great masses of the gentiles should not be beholden to heavenly precepts which are of no concern to them.

Why would the gentiles be forced to do anything?  We are talking about Jewish law here regarding Jews.  I don't know how this comment is relevant.

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2008, 05:41:59 PM »
I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.



Yes, it's fascinating to see young people in the peak of their health pontificating on whether seriously ill, desperately suffering people have the right to choose to end their pain or not.   ::)

Quite frankly I think it's frightening that some people think that G-d might send down a 'miraculous cure'.  The Orthodox Jews have the right to impose whatever they want on their own community, but the great masses of the gentiles should not be beholden to heavenly precepts which are of no concern to them.

Sanctity of life appears in more religions as a moral issue, then just Judaism. Jews have the right to do what they want according to their own laws, I just gave my point of view and didn't intend to dictate any rules or anything.
And you know what, the "great masses" of gentiles and other people apart from Jews are the majority that are faced with the problem of Euthanasia, so they can be just as morally concerned. You're not the only one who believes in G-d's job of taking and granting life.

Are you Jewish Salty German?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 05:43:50 PM by Sarah »

Offline MasterWolf1

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8766
  • RESIST NOW!!!
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2008, 05:42:54 PM »
If I had a serious disease and no form of cure and end up laying in a hospital bed the rest of my life which really isn't living. With tubes controling me and I need someone else to feed and change me, and someone to clean me up cause I wouldnt be able to use the bathroom on my own, at that point pull the plug.
RIGHT WING AMERICAN AND PROUD OF IT. IF YOU WANTED TO PROVE YOU WEREN'T A "RACIST" IN 2008 BY VOTING FOR OBAMA, THEN PROVE IN 2012 YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT FOR VOTING AGAINST OBAMA!

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2557
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2008, 05:50:45 PM »
I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.

Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.


Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.

Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.

The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.

You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.

I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.

We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.

And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.

Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.

And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.




« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 05:52:28 PM by Skippy »

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2008, 05:56:07 PM »
With every suffering comes a relief.

Offline MasterWolf1

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8766
  • RESIST NOW!!!
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2008, 06:03:29 PM »
IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?
RIGHT WING AMERICAN AND PROUD OF IT. IF YOU WANTED TO PROVE YOU WEREN'T A "RACIST" IN 2008 BY VOTING FOR OBAMA, THEN PROVE IN 2012 YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT FOR VOTING AGAINST OBAMA!

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2008, 06:07:15 PM »
IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

Why would God keep them still alive suffering? If they should have died then why didn't it happen in the car crash?

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2557
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2008, 06:07:33 PM »
IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2557
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2008, 06:11:57 PM »
IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

Why would G-d keep them still alive suffering? If they should have died then why didn't it happen in the car crash?

Its not a matter of G-d making people suffer, its about the will of the person concerned. Even in that act, people have a choice.

I have seen and have a man currently who should of died 5 years ago still alive, because he said " he is not  really yet"

Think people underestimate the spirit and will of man, G-d made us a strong and willful creation, he does not send us anything we are not fit to bear.

Offline MasterWolf1

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8766
  • RESIST NOW!!!
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2008, 06:13:59 PM »
IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?

I know it becomes a very difficult yet morbid decision.  And I mean those that are forever suffering to stay alive.  Terminally ill for example that no matter what. For example: If someone has cancer that can never be cured and slowly eating away at them and comes to a point that they have nothing but suffering just to continue to live, I really don't see that as living.
RIGHT WING AMERICAN AND PROUD OF IT. IF YOU WANTED TO PROVE YOU WEREN'T A "RACIST" IN 2008 BY VOTING FOR OBAMA, THEN PROVE IN 2012 YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT FOR VOTING AGAINST OBAMA!

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Re: Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2008, 06:18:10 PM »
Quote
he does not send us anything we are not fit to bear.
[/b]

So we can live with the suffering then?

Isn't there some bias in actually asking the person whom it concerns whether or not they would wish to die through a "mercy killing"....when they themselves are either in some degree of pain or feeling completely useless knowing that their time may come quite soon?

They would want to die peacefully and dignified instead of prolonging their state. Though their want can be overshadowed by the slightest chance. If people start to allow Euthanasia by the law, it's boundries will begin to expand just as with abortion.