Author Topic: Parshas VaYeira: Kol Ishah  (Read 2895 times)

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Parshas VaYeira: Kol Ishah
« on: February 09, 2008, 10:46:38 PM »
Parshas VaYeira: Kol Ishah

No definitive Halacha LeMa'aseh conclusions should be applied to practical situations based on any of these Shiurim.

The Torah tells us that when the three Malachim, the angels, came to visit Avraham Avinu, they asked him where Soroh was (Bereishis 18:9). The Gemara in Bava Metzia (87a) explains that the Torah here is teaching us a lesson in Derech Eretz, saying that it is proper when greeting someone to ask about the welfare of the members of his household. Rashi, in his commentary on the above Posuk (Ibid. s.v. V'Yomru), spells out that one should ask a man about his wife and a woman about her husband. The source for this point seems to be the statement of the Midrash in Bereishis Rabbah (Parsha 48 Siman 17), part of which Rashi (Ibid.) quotes, that just as the Malachim asked Avraham about Soroh, they also asked Soroh about Avraham. This Midrash is quoted more fully by Tosafos in Bava Metzia (Ibid. s.v. Lama), linking it with the above cited ruling of the Gemara (Ibid.).

Rabbeinu Eliyahu Mizrachi, in his commentary on Rashi on this Posuk (Ibid. s.v. L'Ish), questions how one is allowed to ask a woman about her husband when the Gemara in Berachos (24a) states, based upon a PoSuk in Shir HaShirim (2:14), that a woman's voice is considered Ervah, sexually enticing, implying that it is improper for a man to listen to a woman speak. He explains that indeed this statement in Rashi (Ibid.) that one should ask a woman about her husband's welfare is incorrect, and appears due to a textual error. The fact that the Midrash (Ibid.) states clearly that the Malachim asked Soroh about Avraham does not imply anything; this was permitted specifically because they were angels, and were thus not subject to human desires and urges. An ordinary man, however, should not listen to a woman speak, according to this view.

The Maharal of Prague, however, in his commentary on this Rashi, (Gur Aryeh Ibid. s.v. She'Af) quotes this same question, but responds quite differently. He says that there really is no question at all, because the statement of the Gemara in Berachos (Ibid.) refers to a case when a man wishes to listen to a woman speak specifically for the sake of deriving pleasure from hearing her voice; only then is it improper to listen to her voice. But simply to hear a woman speak, without any intent to derive pleasure from her voice, was never forbidden. It is thus permissible for any man to speak to a woman and ask her about her husband's well-being, as Rashi (Ibid.) says. The Maharsha, commenting on the above cited Gemara in Bava Metzia (Chiddushei Aggados Bava Metziah Ibid. s.v. Lamdah), likewise writes that the prohibition to hear a woman speaking exists only if there is intent to derive pleasure from her voice, otherwise there is no problem. He then supports this view by citing several examples from Tanach where ordinary men (not angels) spoke with women, implying that there is nothing wrong with doing so. The Chayei Adam (Klal 4 Sif 6) thus rules clearly that the speaking voice of a woman is not considered Ervah, sexually enticing, and is thus not referred to in the above cited Gemara in Berachos (Ibid.). He adds, though, that it is nevertheless forbidden to listen to a woman speak with the intention of getting pleasure from the sound of her voice.

Both the Maharal (Ibid.) and the Maharsha (Ibid.), however, point out, as do others, that there is a Gemara in Kiddushin (70a) which states that one Amora was reluctant to send greetings to the wife of another Amora when the latter asked him to do so, because this would involve hearing her speak, which he felt was forbidden. This source seems to imply that even listening to a woman speak is indeed prohibited. The Maharal (Ibid.) explains, however, that the point of this Gemara is to teach that a man should generally avoid talking with women if there is no real purpose to it, as the first Amora felt was the case in his situation. But if there is a purpose, such as to inquire about her husband's welfare, which is a way of being polite, there is certainly no prohibition to talk to and listen to the speaking voice of a woman. Similarly, the Maharsha (Ibid.) explains that the type of greeting referred to in this Gemara (Ibid.) was an intimate one, and the first Amora thus considered it improper. An intimate conversation with a woman which could lead to inappropriate closeness is indeed forbidden, but an ordinary conversation which is necessary and where one simply hears a woman's speaking voice is permitted.

It should be noted that among the Rishonim, there are authorities which indeed forbid men to listen to even the speaking voice of a woman, but many disagree. The Meiri, commenting on the aforementioned Gemara in Berachos (Beis HaBechirah Ibid. s.v. Tzarich L'Adam), entertains the possibility of this broader prohibition, but seems to conclude that hearing the normal speaking voice of a woman is permitted. The Ra'avad, as cited by the Rashba there in Berachos (Chiddushei HaRashba Ibid. s.v. V'Ha), likewise writes that the prohibition implied by the Gemara in Kiddushin (Ibid.) applies only to warm greetings which generate inappropriate closeness; the ordinary speaking voice of a woman, however, may be listened to. Both of these authorities, however, like many others, clearly prohibit a man from listening to the voice of a woman singing. This may be based, at least in part, on a Gemara in Sotah (48a and see Ibid. Rashi s.v. K'Aish) which forbids men and women to sing together and, even more so, prohibits men from listening to women sing and answering them in song, because this will lead to sexual impropriety.

The Beis Yosef, in his commentary on the Tur (Orach Chaim Siman 75 s.v. Tefach), quotes a dispute among the Rishonim as to whether this entire prohibition to hear a woman's voice should be limited to when a man is reciting Kerias Shema (or davening), because that is the context in which this law is originally introduced in the above quoted Gemara in Berachos (Ibid.). He too concludes, though, that the prohibition relates only to hearing a woman singing, and not to hearing her speak normally. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim Ibid. Sif 3), clearly forbids hearing only the singing voice of a woman, and it is forbidden only while the man is reciting Kerias Shema. The Magen Avraham (Ibid. Sif Katan 6), however, refers us to another ruling in the Shuichan Aruch (Even HaEzer Siman 21 Sif 1) which prohibits hearing the voice of a woman (whom one is forbidden to marry) at all times; the Beis Shemuel (Ibid Sif Katan 4), among others, writes that this too refers only to a woman's singing voice, not her speaking voice. The Perishah, commenting on the Tur (Ibid. Ot 2), explains that only a woman's singing voice is sexually stimulating, not her speaking voice.

Rav Ovadyah Yosef (Sheilos U'Teshuvos Yabeah Omer Chelek 1 Chelek Orach Chaim Siman 6) discusses whether a man may listen to a female vocalist on the radio or on a tape recorder when he does not see the singer (as opposed to on television or on a video, which is forbidden even if it is not live), especially in light of the statement of the Gemara in Sanhedrin (45a and See Ibid. Tosafos s.v. Aleh) that sexual desire is generated only if there is some visual temptation. He concludes that listening to a woman sing is forbidden only if the listener can see the woman, or, even if he cannot, knows what she looks like, either through personal acquaintance or through a photograph. Among others, Rav Yaakov Breisch (Sheilos U'Teshuvos Chelkas Yaakov Chelek 1 Siman 163), however, disagrees and forbids listening to a female vocalist on the radio or on a tape recorder under all conditions.

It is worth noting that the Seridei Eish (Sheilos U'Teshuvos Seridei Eish Chelek 2 Siman 8) quotes views which allow men and women to sing Zemiros together, including one authority cited by the Sdei Chemed (Klalim, Maareches Ha'Kuf Klal 42) that holds that the entire prohibition is limited to hearing a woman singing love songs. He thus argues himself that since hearing Zemiros, with its sacred words, does not generate improper sexual urges, it is permissible, especially for the sake for Kiruv Rechokim, to have men and women singing Zemiros together. It is also worth noting that Rav Moshe Feinstein (Sheilos V'Teshuvos Igros Moshe Orach Chaim Chelek 1 Siman 26) allows one to hear the voice of a girl who is less than eleven years old if there is some need to do so, because the voice of a young girl will not generate sexual desire. It is clear, however, that one should not listen to any woman's voice if one's intent is to derive sexual pleasure from it, as stated by the Mishnah Berurah (Orach Chaim Ibid. Sif Katan 17), among others. 


Offline Salty German

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Re: Parashat VaYeira: Kol Ishah
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2008, 03:42:16 PM »
The sound of a woman's voice is like a sparkling fountain to me; it is the deep well-spring of joy and happiness which I am so desperate to draw from.  But the woman recoils, she takes her man by the hand, as if to say, 'He is mine, don't touch him', or, 'I shall deal with you by showing that I am already taken.  If you want me you must make more of an effort.'

And in this way, the woman exposes her true self - not as one who wishes to care for and love others, but who wishes to make herself an emotional burden on others, to exert dominance over men by means of emotion, by means of deceit and treachery, making what is inexplicable seem 'mystical' when in fact it is quite shallow.

I experienced love, and it made me eschew all human company.  Every relationship (of whatever kind) is a form of abuse and manipulation.  One sometimes has to bend over and accept the influence of others inside them, but it is never phsyically pleasurable, it is only the sensation of having satisfied someone's wish to dominate you that is pleasurable.  And what a degraded way to live!  Would you not sooner have a pure soul than be used up and made dirty?

Offline Scriabin

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Re: Parashat VaYeira: Kol Ishah
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2008, 10:13:06 AM »
The sound of a woman's voice is like a sparkling fountain to me; it is the deep well-spring of joy and happiness which I am so desperate to draw from.  But the woman recoils, she takes her man by the hand, as if to say, 'He is mine, don't touch him', or, 'I shall deal with you by showing that I am already taken.  If you want me you must make more of an effort.'

And in this way, the woman exposes her true self - not as one who wishes to care for and love others, but who wishes to make herself an emotional burden on others, to exert dominance over men by means of emotion, by means of deceit and treachery, making what is inexplicable seem 'mystical' when in fact it is quite shallow.

I experienced love, and it made me eschew all human company.  Every relationship (of whatever kind) is a form of abuse and manipulation.  One sometimes has to bend over and accept the influence of others inside them, but it is never phsyically pleasurable, it is only the sensation of having satisfied someone's wish to dominate you that is pleasurable.  And what a degraded way to live!  Would you not sooner have a pure soul than be used up and made dirty?

OK.  Perhaps Cherubim isn't FOTL, but this guy is.