The Power of the Chachamim + near Future of America.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It's a bit hypocritical of Tzvi to get very excited when I discuss a rabbi he supports when he thought nothing of insulting a large portion of worldwide chabad Judaism. He said that Chabad Chasidim who believe their rabbi was moshiach should be excommunicated which is real slander. These are heroic jews who have legit reasons for believing what they believe in regardless of my personal beliefs.

Not to open this can of worms, but when you say 'legit reasons for believing what they believe'.... I think it's actually a novel idea of theirs that the moschiach will be a person who already lived and died and comes back.  There isn't a tradition for that found really anywhere.  As far as excommunication goes and all that, that is an issue way above me, and I'll leave that to the chachamim to work out.  As long as they are not worshipping the Rebbe, while it might be a new idea to think he will be returning as moschiach, as long as they aren't deifying him, then perhaps they are fine to believe what they like.  I don't really know much more than the fact that a person living dying and coming back as moschiach is a unique approach.

[DownwithIslam]

It's a bit hypocritical of Tzvi to get very excited when I discuss a rabbi he supports when he thought nothing of insulting a large portion of worldwide chabad Judaism. He said that Chabad Chasidim who believe their rabbi was moshiach should be excommunicated which is real slander. These are heroic jews who have legit reasons for believing what they believe in regardless of my personal beliefs.

stop changing the subject, and yes, their is within Chabad, a HUGG problem, someone can read what I said previosly on that subject, and why I said it (when it was mentioned).

Why do you consider this a change of subject? I know its not something you want me to expose about you but it's the truth. You viscously smear Chabad when so many of their members believe this. Do you know that the lubavitcher rebbe fulfilled all of the obligations that moshiach is supposed to especially bringing jews back to judaism? How dare you smear these wonderful people simply because little tzvi ben roshel thinks its a "HUGG" problem? I see something wrong with this picture especially when this same person gets very touchy when someone mentions anything about rabbis he supports. I wonder how Lubab feels about your vile comments in regard to chabad?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

It's a bit hypocritical of Tzvi to get very excited when I discuss a rabbi he supports when he thought nothing of insulting a large portion of worldwide chabad Judaism. He said that Chabad Chasidim who believe their rabbi was moshiach should be excommunicated which is real slander. These are heroic jews who have legit reasons for believing what they believe in regardless of my personal beliefs.

stop changing the subject, and yes, their is within Chabad, a HUGG problem, someone can read what I said previosly on that subject, and why I said it (when it was mentioned).

Why do you consider this a change of subject? I know its not something you want me to expose about you but it's the truth. You viscously smear Chabad when so many of their members believe this. Do you know that the lubavitcher rebbe fulfilled all of the obligations that moshiach is supposed to especially bringing jews back to judaism? How dare you smear these wonderful people simply because little tzvi ben roshel thinks its a "HUGG" problem? I see something wrong with this picture especially when this same person gets very touchy when someone mentions anything about rabbis he supports. I wonder how Lubab feels about your vile comments in regard to chabad?

Hey listin, when someone thinks that their Rebbe is G-d incarnated, like xtianity, it is completly forbidden, and the belief that he is Moshiah, lead to that more extreme view. So when I origionaly said to Lubab that if anything, if we are going to talk about excommunicating some observent Jews, then we should start in Chabad. (And I didn't say all of Chabad, but if we were to, then it should be checked their first and formost). Either way, I stand by what I said, BUT its no point (noting positive will come out of), discussing it too much needleesly here, but I stand by what I said and believe.   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Do you know that the lubavitcher rebbe fulfilled all of the obligations that moshiach is supposed to especially bringing jews back to judaism?

No, I'm pretty sure he didn't.  The obligations, in addition to bringing Jews to Israel from the four corners of the earth (to Eretz Yisrael, the place), I think include also he has to build the Third Temple, he will rule over the Jewish people, he is from the Davidic line, restore practice of all the mitzvot we currently can't do without the Temple, wage wars against the enemies of the Jewish people, establish a peaceful era, get people worldwide to recognize and serve Hashem, Jews and non Jews in our unique ways.  Is this correct?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Do you know that the lubavitcher rebbe fulfilled all of the obligations that moshiach is supposed to especially bringing jews back to judaism?

No, I'm pretty sure he didn't.  The obligations, in addition to bringing Jews to Israel from the four corners of the earth (to Eretz Yisrael, the place), I think include also he has to build the Third Temple, he will rule over the Jewish people, he is from the Davidic line, restore practice of all the mitzvot we currently can't do without the Temple, wage wars against the enemies of the Jewish people, establish a peaceful era, get people worldwide to recognize and serve Hashem, Jews and non Jews in our unique ways.  Is this correct?

Yes, and more.

[DownwithIslam]

Well to be fair, I am not an expert in this area but I heard a prominent Chabad rabbi in Crown Heights discuss this and he said that their was no question that the rebbe did fulfill the required obligations. Regardless, for tzvi to say that they should be excommunicated is disgusting. He doesn't realize that just as he gets offended when I discuss rabbis he supports, many more people get offended when he spews hate like this. I guess he only thinks of himself. In any event, Chabad are wonderful jews and if he wants to show examples of rabbis who bring jews back to judaism then he should look right at chabad rabbis. This also proves that his labeling of me as anti religious to be a lie as well. I doubt I would come to a forum like this if I was anti religious.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Well to be fair, I am not an expert in this area but I heard a prominent Chabad rabbi in Crown Heights discuss this and he said that their was no question that the rebbe did fulfill the required obligations. Regardless, for tzvi to say that they should be excommunicated is disgusting. He doesn't realize that just as he gets offended when I discuss rabbis he supports, many more people get offended when he spews hate like this. I guess he only thinks of himself. In any event, Chabad are wonderful jews and if he wants to show examples of rabbis who bring jews back to judaism then he should look right at chabad rabbis.

Do you work for the Israeli self-hating media or something? Origionally I told lubab that "If anything" , before he goes and suggests about other ObserventJews being excommunicated, he should look into his own group, and "If anything", it should start their. Stop making sh*t up, and stirring things, just in order "to get back at me". We know you hate me, I take it as a compliment.

[jdl4ever]

Tzvi has a valid Torah opinion on most matters and I agree with some of what he writes.  DWI you also have a valid Torah opinion on most matters and I agree with some of the stuff you write.  About the Rebbe Zs'l I agree more with Tzvi.  Here you DWI went too far by calling the Rabbi he makes threads about an evil Shas Rabbi, it's Loshon Hara. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Well to be fair, I am not an expert in this area but I heard a prominent Chabad rabbi in Crown Heights discuss this and he said that their was no question that the rebbe did fulfill the required obligations. Regardless, for tzvi to say that they should be excommunicated is disgusting. He doesn't realize that just as he gets offended when I discuss rabbis he supports, many more people get offended when he spews hate like this. I guess he only thinks of himself. In any event, Chabad are wonderful jews and if he wants to show examples of rabbis who bring jews back to judaism then he should look right at chabad rabbis. This also proves that his labeling of me as anti religious to be a lie as well. I doubt I would come to a forum like this if I was anti religious.

I see what you're saying.  The people in Chabad who think the Rebbe was moschiach (or, will be moschiach later) is a minority within Chabad.  Even smaller minority would be those who take it even further to something blatantly anti-Jewish like deifying him.  There is a controversy within Chabad on this issue, and Chabad in general has tried to distance itself from the messichists or whatever they are called, who push the Rebbe-was-moschiach angle.  It's a complicated issue.  I think Chabad in general, the non-rebbe-was-messiah aspect, is one of the greatest Jewish movements we've seen, and it certainly broke the mold in the 'kiruv' department that so many orthodox groups are participating in today.  I have great respect for Chabad & Chabadniks, and I have had positive experiences in Chabad programs myself.  The Lubavitcher rebbe ZT"L was unquestionably one of the greatest Torah scholars of his day.

[DownwithIslam]

Again you use vile language to demonstrate your hatred for questioning. To point out that you spewed vile hatred towards a wonderful group of people isn't getting back at you, or at least you shouldn't view it that way. Who makes little Tzvi Ben Roshel the authority on excommunicating jews? Is anyone with a sane head going to believe that Chabad Cahsidim who believe that their rebbe is moshiach need to be excommunicated just because a little boy who despises all jews who are different then himself thinks so? It amazes me that innocent Chabad chasidim who only want to help  other jews could possibly come in view of tzvi ben roshels spotting scope.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Again you use vile language to demonstrate your hatred for questioning. To point out that you spewed vile hatred towards a wonderful group of people isn't getting back at you, or at least you shouldn't view it that way. Who makes little Tzvi Ben Roshel the authority on excommunicating jews? Is anyone with a sane head going to believe that Chabad Cahsidim who believe that their rebbe is moshiach need to be excommunicated just because a little boy who despises all jews who are different then himself thinks so? It amazes me that innocent Chabad chasidim who only want to help  other jews could possibly come in view of tzvi ben roshels spotting scope.

You evil Rasha, why are you twisting my words, I wont waste my time arguing with you over and over, but you are a very big Rasha for all of the things you are doing. You would make a good career in the Israeli media, by twisting people's words and all the hate and negativity you create. Stop trying to label me as being like you.

[jdl4ever]

Actually most Lubovitch think the Rebbe is Moshiach, not a minority. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Actually most Lubovitch think the Rebbe is Moshiach, not a minority. 

Are you sure?  I thought they were a minority... Is there a source somewhere with a statistic we can look at?

[DownwithIslam]

Jdl4ever, even though we disagree here, I have a lot of respect for you and I take what you say seriously. People can respectfully disagree and me and you have a gentlemans disagreement regarding this issue. I know you are a normal person and you don't slander so I will be more than happy to always have respectful conversations with you. Tzvi Ben Roshel on the other hand gets all touchy when his rabbis are mentioned but then goes ahead and wants chabad chasidim excommunicated even though he is just a little ant in knowledge compared to the people he slanders especially the chabad rabbis who hold these beliefs.

[DownwithIslam]

Kahanebt, I was also under the impression that Moshiactists were not a minority. I believe that many subscribe to this ideology. I myself in no way a lubavitcher(far from it) but I believe that these people should be shown the utmost respect. I have found them to be some of the nicest people I have ever met.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am all for respecting all Jews in general because in the end it will be Hashem who decides who was good or bad and we should love our own nation.  I think we have a lot more to worry about than Chabadniks thinking about their rebbe.  We have erev rav's leading Israel and doing evil actions against Jews that deserve not an ounce of respect.

[DownwithIslam]

I am all for respecting all Jews in general because in the end it will be Hashem who decides who was good or bad and we should love our own nation.  I think we have a lot more to worry about than Chabadniks thinking about their rebbe.  We have erev rav's leading Israel and doing evil actions against Jews that deserve not an ounce of respect.

That is exactly right. Kahanebt, I was wondering what you thought of tzvi ben roshels last post or two when he slandered me? I hope you find those as offensive as I did. While I disagree with you on these issues, I certainly don't think you are crazy. I can't say the same about tzvi ben roshel. I think that he is as hypocritical as it gets. At least I am not a hypocrite and I don't believe you are either, kahanebt.

[Dominater96]

dwi is a little kookoo. He really hates allmost all Rabbis and religious people, so posting a Torah lecture that people might benifit from really p*sses him off. I guess its partly because his brother became religious and doesn't respect and recognize him, probably because of the way he acts and speaks. dwi do yourself a favor, at least just keep quiet, you wouldn't want to add on to more averot which you will be accountable for. 

Tzvi, how do you know anything about my family? That line had about as much integrity as the koran has. I think you are insane. Because two extremists on this forum call me kookoo or whatever certainly doesn't make me so. I think your positions are insane. For examply, you recently stated that even if you had lots of money, you would give it to some torah website over JTF. Now I don't think their is anything wrong at all with giving to that torah website, that is after you have donated to jtf. Think about this, if JTF doesn't take over soon, you will be killed by arab muslim nazis and you certainly wont be learning. Get your priorities in order.

Why would someone donate to JTF over other charities. What has JTF done that it deserves $ over many other righteous organizattiona. Yekutiels "Klavim Le'Haganat Yisrael" is actually doing something with their money, and not just making youtube videos. I mean what Chaim is doing is great, good for him, but dont imply that it is the most important charity. And dont start with "If JTF had more money CHaim would take power". Please think in reality. If I had money I doubt JT would be in the top 100 of my charities I would give to. Name something productive that my money would do. Supporting the hilltops? I can give it to them myself, I dont need Chaim to act as a messanger for me, they can get my money without Chaim.

[Dominater96]

And btw, not everyone you disagree with happens to be "Shas". Something is really wrong with you. All you do is spew hatred against Rabbis. Enough is enough. IF you dont have anything nice to say just shut up man.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Why would someone donate to JTF over other charities. What has JTF done that it deserves $ over many other righteous organizattiona. Yekutiels "Klavim Le'Haganat Yisrael" is actually doing something with their money, and not just making youtube videos. I mean what Chaim is doing is great, good for him, but dont imply that it is the most important charity. And dont start with "If JTF had more money CHaim would take power". Please think in reality. If I had money I doubt JT would be in the top 100 of my charities I would give to. Name something productive that my money would do. Supporting the hilltops? I can give it to them myself, I dont need Chaim to act as a messanger for me, they can get my money without Chaim.

Show me ONE GOOD THING Michael Guzofsky has accomplished in 25 years of living in Israel.  All your hero does is sit around drinking beers with Bnei Elim and David Haivri, bashing Chaim ben Pesach (who actually WENT TO PRISON fighting for his brothers and sisters all over the world). What has Mike done, other than collect a fat salary from his handful of sycophants? It may be that he is a good Jew who wants to save Israel, but you sure can't see it from the results.

If you like "Yekutiel" so much, then just go join his forum rather than defending a lost cause. You want to give him money--please, go ahead and do so! I'm sure it will go to a noble cause! 

[DownwithIslam]

Why would someone donate to JTF over other charities. What has JTF done that it deserves $ over many other righteous organizattiona. Yekutiels "Klavim Le'Haganat Yisrael" is actually doing something with their money, and not just making youtube videos. I mean what Chaim is doing is great, good for him, but dont imply that it is the most important charity. And dont start with "If JTF had more money CHaim would take power". Please think in reality. If I had money I doubt JT would be in the top 100 of my charities I would give to. Name something productive that my money would do. Supporting the hilltops? I can give it to them myself, I dont need Chaim to act as a messanger for me, they can get my money without Chaim.

Show me ONE GOOD THING Michael Guzofsky has accomplished in 25 years of living in Israel.  All your hero does is sit around drinking beers with Bnei Elim and David Haivri, bashing Chaim ben Pesach (who actually WENT TO PRISON fighting for his brothers and sisters all over the world). What has Mike done, other than collect a fat salary from his handful of sycophants? It may be that he is a good Jew who wants to save Israel, but you sure can't see it from the results.

If you like "Yekutiel" so much, then just go join his forum rather than defending a lost cause. You want to give him money--please, go ahead and do so! I'm sure it will go to a noble cause! 

Chaimfan, as usual you have added wonderful commentary. We have some people on here who run around praising everyone except the people who actually deserve to be praised. We have a shmuck named dominator96 who is in bed with the shas party and their whores and he always looks to give Chaim Ben pesach a jab. Dominator96, if you don't like Chaim Ben Pesach, please stay off this forum.

[Dominater96]

The Jewish Legion, the founding of EL Nakam- a hilltop expanded Tapuach, Trains Security Dogs, Principal of Yeshivat Haraayon, Rabbi Meir + Binyamin Kahane right hand man. Went to jail many, many times. Actually he is facing trial in March for a referendum he put out in Israel, and may serve a long time. And he circulates the Darka Shel Torah Parasha Newsletter around Israel, and the States, and he publishes and sells Rabbi Kahane's books. You have no idea what you are talking about. Yekutiel is a great hero, and yes I actually did give him a nice amount if money last year that I raised. And Btw, he doesnt speak to David Haivri. And what exactly does Victor Vancier do KNOW. We know he went to jail for Jews 20 years ago, and that is very commendable. And Mike colllecting a fat salary? he is actually in debt for all the money he shells out for the upkeep of the security dogs.

[Dominater96]

You think Yekutiel is friendly with David Haviri? check this out               

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=3725.0

[DownwithIslam]

Wow I always knew you were a piece of drek troll. Can you imagine the chutzpa of you to ask what Chaim does now? He is the only one doing anything to help jews currently.

[Dominater96]

Yup, a ASK JTF show, and TAKE BACK AMERICA are really helping Jews that much. More than raising security dogs who have stopped numerous terror attacks.