Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: lubab on February 17, 2008, 01:37:49 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 12:28:46 PM ---I didn't read it, yet (B"H after I finish listining to what I am right now). But the question and problem isn't with the Alter Rebbe, but with the recent mess and question.
--- End quote ---
First read it because it is that same old debate that is manifesting as this mess we have today. It hasn't been resolved. I hope with understanding and education we can resolve it here.
--- End quote ---
okay, once I finish the lecture im listining now. Actually, what im listining to right now is sooo relevent to Chabad, allthough Chabad isn't explicitly mentioned, but its in the last 10 minutes of the lecture, that im listining now.
"the illusion of material" - Rabbi Mizrahi, the link to the site- Torahanytime.com - you can listin to the last 10, (even less minutes. from 1 hour and around 25 minutes.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
Okay I read it now. What does this have to do with giving a human G-d like features? In that case, since everything is G-d's creation, then we should be worshipping everything around us. Anyway this is exactly how idolatry was created. The ancients first believed in G-d, then they started making intermediaries, the sun, moon and other things, then eventually they completly were worshiping objects instead of the creator of the World.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 02:01:09 PM ---Okay I read it now. What does this have to do with giving a human G-d like features? In that case, since everything is G-d's creation, then we should be worshipping everything around us. Anyway this is exactly how idolatry was created. The ancients first believed in G-d, then they started making intermediaries, the sun, moon and other things, then eventually they completly were worshiping objects instead of the creator of the World.
--- End quote ---
Exactly. Did you see the example with Reuven. If he think that Reuven is his arm this is the equivalent of idolatry. You need to know that Reuven is much more than his arm, but yet his being is expressed all the way down into his arm.
This is a subtle point, but it makes the difference between idolarty and true Judaism, but if you are not careful you can miss it.
We are not G-d forbid, saying that G-d is a rock, a tree, or anything else.
We are saying that G-d is above and beyond all of those things, however, in each of these things, if we trace it up to its source, we can find G-d. You need many more analogies to understand this, so don't think you understand what I'm saying and start jumping to conclusions.
All I am saying is what the Rambam says, all existence is derived from G-d's essential existence.
This process of tracing creation back up to its' source in G-dliness is the basis of the study of Kabbalah and hasidic philosophy.
Interestingly enough, the scientists are doing the exact same thing right now.
judeanoncapta:
This is simple Pantheism.
According to Lubab, when an idolator say his idol has G-d within it, he is telling the truth.
That is the danger of Pantheism. Once you say G-d is literally within everything, there is nothing wrong with idolatry because G-d is within the idol or within the person actually.
And you're wrong about everyone now beleiving in Pantheism, it's not true.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on February 17, 2008, 05:25:25 PM ---This is simple Pantheism.
According to Lubab, when an idolator say his idol has G-d within it, he is telling the truth.
That is the danger of Pantheism. Once you say G-d is literally within everything, there is nothing wrong with idolatry because G-d is within the idol or within the person actually.
And you're wrong about everyone now beleiving in Pantheism, it's not true.
--- End quote ---
There is something very wrong with idolatry because they think G-d is limited to that form. G-d is not limited to any form. We are saying that He remains formless while being omnipresent at the same time. It seems like a contradiction, but is really not, when you buckle down and learn the analogies.
It all depends on how you understand these things.
We know we all pray to the Kodesh Hakodoshim, but do we really pray to the Kodesh Hakadoshim, no way! That's just a place where G-d's presense is REVEALED to us more than any other place. We are not worshiping the Aron. We are worshipping G-d as He is expressed in that Aron, but yet remains completely unchanged.
I don't really expect you to understand this JNC because you are not even trying to understand. You are trying to accuse and knock me out of the moderator spot.
If you truly cared about me and idolatry, you would do what the halach says and make a proper investigation. Instead you choose to draw your own conclusions about what I beleive and then attack those beliefs which you've ascribed to me (wrongly). Well it just doesn't work like that.
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