hello

[Abdul-Azim]

Well, I DON'T want you dead just becuse of your Jordanian back ground or religion.
I don't want people to be killed just because of who they are, that's terrible.
I know a lot of people want Jews dead JUST because they are Jewish. I won't reduce myself to that level of wanting people killed for any of those reasons.
You have to understand,Abdul-Azim, that everyone has their own opinion on this forum.
You say things like "you all want me dead" that's just not true.

I just got that feeling while i was skimming through the forum.

[Abdul-Azim]

i dont really have one, Israel really is not that important to me.  Neither is any other country in that region.

I'm not really sure why you are posting, then. Obviously, I'm letting you have your say in here. I haven't banned you yet.

Also, you are not a real muslim. You do not follow the koran. Do you understand that? By sharia law, you are an infidel.

isnt that like saying that secular jews are not jews?

[Abdul-Azim]

isnt that like saying that secular jews are not jews?

WELL, Many of them AREN'T even Jews.
When one is secular, they either intermarry with Gentiles and have Gentile children or some "convert" under non-valid authorities and are not Jewish and their children aren't Jews either yet they call themselves "secular Jews"
Some might just be cut off.

well i have a jewish friend that is not married, but does not really follow kosher or any of the laws, and basically lives like a gentile.  Is he not jewish? (both of his parents are)

[Shlomo]

Jews are Jewish if their mother is Jewish or they convert. It was a covenant with Abraham and his descendants.

There are Jews who reject Judaism and that is the largest part of our problem. If the Jews would follow the Torah, they would have wiped out the enemies of Israel (who want to murder us because we are Jews) and the world would be a MUCH better place - and a lot safer.

If you were a true muslim, you would follow what mohammed teaches, use him as an example, and you would follow the words in the hideous koran. Under sharia law, any muslim who does not follow the koran, is not a muslim and must be put to death. That's what they have in store for you. You are just as much a target as the Jewish people... ESPECIALLY if you have Jewish friends.

[Abdul-Azim]

Jews are Jewish if their mother is Jewish or they convert. It was a covenant with Abraham and his descendants.

There are Jews who reject Judaism and that is the largest part of our problem. If the Jews would follow the Torah, they would have wiped out the enemies of Israel (who want to murder us because we are Jews) and the world would be a MUCH better place - and a lot safer.

If you were a true muslim, you would follow what mohammed teaches, use him as an example, and you would follow the words in the hideous koran. Under sharia law, any muslim who does not follow the koran, is not a muslim and must be put to death. That's what they have in store for you. You are just as much a target as the Jewish people... ESPECIALLY if you have Jewish friends.

why was ishmael not a jew then? 

[Abdul-Azim]

Jews are Jewish if their mother is Jewish or they convert. It was a covenant with Abraham and his descendants.

There are Jews who reject Judaism and that is the largest part of our problem. If the Jews would follow the Torah, they would have wiped out the enemies of Israel (who want to murder us because we are Jews) and the world would be a MUCH better place - and a lot safer.

If you were a true muslim, you would follow what mohammed teaches, use him as an example, and you would follow the words in the hideous koran. Under sharia law, any muslim who does not follow the koran, is not a muslim and must be put to death. That's what they have in store for you. You are just as much a target as the Jewish people... ESPECIALLY if you have Jewish friends.

why was ishmael not a jew then? 

His mother was not a Jew.

well neither was Sarah, I mean, her mother was not a jew either.  Also, didn't they consider him to be Sarah's son by custom?

[Abdul-Azim]

Jews are Jewish if their mother is Jewish or they convert. It was a covenant with Abraham and his descendants.

There are Jews who reject Judaism and that is the largest part of our problem. If the Jews would follow the Torah, they would have wiped out the enemies of Israel (who want to murder us because we are Jews) and the world would be a MUCH better place - and a lot safer.

If you were a true muslim, you would follow what mohammed teaches, use him as an example, and you would follow the words in the hideous koran. Under sharia law, any muslim who does not follow the koran, is not a muslim and must be put to death. That's what they have in store for you. You are just as much a target as the Jewish people... ESPECIALLY if you have Jewish friends.

why was ishmael not a jew then? 

His mother was not a Jew.

well neither was Sarah, I mean, her mother was not a jew either.  Also, didn't they consider him to be Sarah's son by custom?

NO, you don't understand. Yes Abaraham was the first Hebrew.
BUT in terms of who is a Jew, we are talking about the time when G-d made the covenant with the Jewish people. After that, someone is a Jew if their mother, mother's mother, mother's great grandmother etc...is a Jew.
So no, how could Ishmael ever be Jewish.
Also are you implying any Jewishness on arabs based on this?

I'm not implying anything, I'm just asking a question.  I will say that it would be amusing if it turned out that all Arabs were jews though

[newman]

Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).

[Sergio 11]

I heard that when Muslims get bored they play a game called "rock throw target practice"

This game is especially evident right throughout Israel.

[newman]

Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).

Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! 

I'm no expert but to get technical...............

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.

Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.

After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).

However,

Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).

Confusing, huh?

[newman]

YES! It's confusing!
I hear people say Abraham is the "first Hebrew" the "first Jew" etc...and then he's not.
I gotta talk to my rabbi again. I'm afraid I'm too ignorant on the matter 

'First Hebrew' is correct.

Rabbi Benjamin Blech's Complete Idiots Guide to Jewish History and Culture is really good for stuff like this.

BTW, I'm not calling YOU a 'complete idiot' but as I'm a bit of a mental pigmy, books ;like his are a G-dsend.

[Abdul-Azim]

Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).

Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! 

I'm no expert but to get technical...............

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.

Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.

After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).

However,

Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).

Confusing, huh?

how were they hebrew?  Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?

[newman]

Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).

Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! 

I'm no expert but to get technical...............

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.

Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.

After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).

However,

Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).

Confusing, huh?

how were they hebrew?  Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?

Yes. But he worshiped the one true G-d (NOT allah the moondog) not the idols of Ur. He originated the 'Hebrew' ethnicity. It's not race but 'ethnicity'. Jews, Hebrews, Israelites etc are not a race but a nation or ethnicity defined by a religion.

[Abdul-Azim]

Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).

Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! 

I'm no expert but to get technical...............

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.

Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.

After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).

However,

Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).

Confusing, huh?

how were they hebrew?  Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?

Yes. But he worshiped the one true G-d (NOT allah the moondog) not the idols of Ur. He originated the 'Hebrew' ethnicity. It's not race but 'ethnicity'. Jews, Hebrews, Israelites etc are not a race but a nation or ethnicity defined by a religion.

so ishmael was a hebrew as well then?  after all, an angel was sent to save him.

[newman]

Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).

Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! 

I'm no expert but to get technical...............

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.

Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.

After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).

However,

Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).

Confusing, huh?

how were they hebrew?  Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?

Yes. But he worshiped the one true G-d (NOT allah the moondog) not the idols of Ur. He originated the 'Hebrew' ethnicity. It's not race but 'ethnicity'. Jews, Hebrews, Israelites etc are not a race but a nation or ethnicity defined by a religion.

so ishmael was a hebrew as well then?  after all, an angel was sent to save him.

#

No. He was the first Ishmaelite or arab.

G-d told Abraham to kick him and his mother out. G_d declared that Ishmael would be 'donkey of a man whose hand would be against the world and all the world against him'. That's a pretty good description of the arab people , BTW.

G-D only wanted the 'right stuff' to form the basis of a chosen people in those days.

[Abdul-Azim]

Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).

Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! 

I'm no expert but to get technical...............

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.

Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.

After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).

However,

Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).

Confusing, huh?

how were they hebrew?  Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?

Yes. But he worshiped the one true G-d (NOT allah the moondog) not the idols of Ur. He originated the 'Hebrew' ethnicity. It's not race but 'ethnicity'. Jews, Hebrews, Israelites etc are not a race but a nation or ethnicity defined by a religion.

so ishmael was a hebrew as well then?  after all, an angel was sent to save him.

#

No. He was the first Ishmaelite or arab.

G-d told Abraham to kick him and his mother out. G_d declared that Ishmael would be 'donkey of a man whose hand would be against the world and all the world against him'. That's a pretty good description of the arab people , BTW.

G-D only wanted the 'right stuff' to form the basis of a chosen people in those days.

then why was he saved? and why did G-d say "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; G-d has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation."?

[newman]

Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).

Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! 

I'm no expert but to get technical...............

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.

Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.

After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).

However,

Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).

Confusing, huh?

how were they hebrew?  Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?

Yes. But he worshiped the one true G-d (NOT allah the moondog) not the idols of Ur. He originated the 'Hebrew' ethnicity. It's not race but 'ethnicity'. Jews, Hebrews, Israelites etc are not a race but a nation or ethnicity defined by a religion.

so ishmael was a hebrew as well then?  after all, an angel was sent to save him.

#

No. He was the first Ishmaelite or arab.

G-d told Abraham to kick him and his mother out. G_d declared that Ishmael would be 'donkey of a man whose hand would be against the world and all the world against him'. That's a pretty good description of the arab people , BTW.

G-D only wanted the 'right stuff' to form the basis of a chosen people in those days.

then why was he saved? and why did G-d say "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; G-d has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation."?

For the same reason he makes earthquakes, tsunamis and poison snakes.

Also for the same reason he made the Jews the world's tiniest Nation (less than 1% of total population). If Israel was a huge nation the rest of the people would think their greatness came from numbers not because of their devine election. The fact that tiny Israel is outnumbered 100:1 by arabs and WINS crushing victories time after time after time (as prophesised in Torah, BTW) proves to many gentiles that they ARE the chosen people (among other things).

[Abdul-Azim]

Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).

Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! 

I'm no expert but to get technical...............

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.

Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.

After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).

However,

Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).

Confusing, huh?

how were they hebrew?  Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?

Yes. But he worshiped the one true G-d (NOT allah the moondog) not the idols of Ur. He originated the 'Hebrew' ethnicity. It's not race but 'ethnicity'. Jews, Hebrews, Israelites etc are not a race but a nation or ethnicity defined by a religion.

so ishmael was a hebrew as well then?  after all, an angel was sent to save him.

#

No. He was the first Ishmaelite or arab.

G-d told Abraham to kick him and his mother out. G_d declared that Ishmael would be 'donkey of a man whose hand would be against the world and all the world against him'. That's a pretty good description of the arab people , BTW.

G-D only wanted the 'right stuff' to form the basis of a chosen people in those days.

then why was he saved? and why did G-d say "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; G-d has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation."?

For the same reason he makes earthquakes, tsunamis and poison snakes.

Also for the same reason he made the Jews the world's tiniest Nation (less than 1% of total population). If Israel was a huge nation the rest of the people would think their greatness came from numbers not because of their devine election. The fact that tiny Israel is outnumbered 100:1 by arabs and WINS crushing victories time after time after time (as prophesised in Torah, BTW) proves to many gentiles that they ARE the chosen people (among other things).

are you sure there are fewer Jews then Basques in the world?

[newman]

then why was he saved? and why did G-d say "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; G-d has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation."?

For the same reason he makes earthquakes, tsunamis and poison snakes.

Also for the same reason he made the Jews the world's tiniest Nation (less than 1% of total population). If Israel was a huge nation the rest of the people would think their greatness came from numbers not because of their devine election. The fact that tiny Israel is outnumbered 100:1 by arabs and WINS crushing victories time after time after time (as prophesised in Torah, BTW) proves to many gentiles that they ARE the chosen people (among other things).

are you sure there are fewer Jews then Basques in the world?

I meant REAL nations. That's why Canada isn't included.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Abdul-Azim:  "...how were they hebrew?  Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?..."

Yes, he was from Ur.

However, the descendants of the European French who for political reasons were expelled from Canada, and who now reside as an ethnic community in Louisiana with their own distinct culture, food, music, and language, are known as Cajuns today.

Neither they themselves, nor the rest of the world, still consider the Cajuns to be citizens of France.

Cajuns are citizens of the U.S.A., but their fellow American citizens regard them as if they make up a separate nation within the U.S.A. .

By this exact same reasoning, The Jewish People claim Abraham of Ur as their Patriarch, but over thousands of years have developed their own unique culture, unique language, unique history, unique cuisine, and a unique religious and historical Book of Scripture known to Jews as Torah, and known to Christians as The Bible.

I have now proven the Arab World's classification of Jews as "merely Jewish Arabs" to be another grand lie and falsehood; another psychopathic propaganda resulting from the Arabs' inability to face the ugly reality of their own primitive and backwards culture.

[Abdul-Azim]

Abdul-Azim:  "...how were they hebrew?  Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?..."

Yes, he was from Ur.

However, the descendants of the European French who for political reasons were expelled from Canada, and who now reside as an ethnic community in Louisiana with their own distinct culture, food, music, and language, are known as Cajuns today.

Neither they themselves, nor the rest of the world, still consider the Cajuns to be citizens of France.

Cajuns are citizens of the U.S.A., but their fellow American citizens regard them as if they make up a separate nation within the U.S.A. .

By this exact same reasoning, The Jewish People claim Abraham of Ur as their Patriarch, but over thousands of years have developed their own unique culture, unique language, unique history, unique cuisine, and a unique religious and historical Book of Scripture known to Jews as Torah, and known to Christians as The Bible.

I have now proven the Arab World's classification of Jews as "merely Jewish Arabs" to be another grand lie and falsehood; another psychopathic propaganda resulting from the Arabs' inability to face the ugly reality of their own primitive and backwards culture.

...yea, never heard of that one before, but ok...

[MarZutra]

Abdul-Azim:  "...how were they hebrew?  Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?..."

Yes, he was from Ur.

However, the descendants of the European French who for political reasons were expelled from Canada, and who now reside as an ethnic community in Louisiana with their own distinct culture, food, music, and language, are known as Cajuns today.

Neither they themselves, nor the rest of the world, still consider the Cajuns to be citizens of France.

Cajuns are citizens of the U.S.A., but their fellow American citizens regard them as if they make up a separate nation within the U.S.A. .

By this exact same reasoning, The Jewish People claim Abraham of Ur as their Patriarch, but over thousands of years have developed their own unique culture, unique language, unique history, unique cuisine, and a unique religious and historical Book of Scripture known to Jews as Torah, and known to Christians as The Bible.

I have now proven the Arab World's classification of Jews as "merely Jewish Arabs" to be another grand lie and falsehood; another psychopathic propaganda resulting from the Arabs' inability to face the ugly reality of their own primitive and backwards culture.

I couldn't agree with this post more.     I will not partake in this discussion as I know it will lead to nothing.  One cannot talk to a Muslim using base logic, historical fact and something unknown to the Islamic World: Morality.  So I'll leave this grand discussion to people like MassuhD and Kelly... 

[Abdul-Azim]

Abdul-Azim:  "...how were they hebrew?  Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?..."

Yes, he was from Ur.

However, the descendants of the European French who for political reasons were expelled from Canada, and who now reside as an ethnic community in Louisiana with their own distinct culture, food, music, and language, are known as Cajuns today.

Neither they themselves, nor the rest of the world, still consider the Cajuns to be citizens of France.

Cajuns are citizens of the U.S.A., but their fellow American citizens regard them as if they make up a separate nation within the U.S.A. .

By this exact same reasoning, The Jewish People claim Abraham of Ur as their Patriarch, but over thousands of years have developed their own unique culture, unique language, unique history, unique cuisine, and a unique religious and historical Book of Scripture known to Jews as Torah, and known to Christians as The Bible.

I have now proven the Arab World's classification of Jews as "merely Jewish Arabs" to be another grand lie and falsehood; another psychopathic propaganda resulting from the Arabs' inability to face the ugly reality of their own primitive and backwards culture.

actually, if you go deep into the bayous of louisiana, they just speak french.  No new "cajun" language (btw, "cajun" is just a mix of french and english, like "spanglish")  The vast majority of them don't speak french or "cajun" and live like everyone else.

and to Christians, its not known as the "Bible" the Tarwat is the "Tanach"

[MarZutra]

Abdul you are wrong there brother sorry.  To Christians it is known as the Tanach: Bible.  To Jews it is the Tenach and the Torah is the 7 books of Moses. 

[Abdul-Azim]

Abdul you are wrong there brother sorry.  To Christians it is known as The Tanach: Bible.  To Jews it is the Tenach and the Torah is the 7 books of Moses. 

lol go to ANY bookstore, and get a CHRISTIAN bible.  you will see there is more to it than just the "torah"