Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Bible, Oral Bible, and History.
jdl4ever:
--- Quote from: adam613 on December 31, 2006, 09:16:29 PM ---To be honest I looked this up after this was stated and I would like to know where this is discussed in Sanhadrim. First of all the Navi is not at the same level as the 5 books of Moses and the oral Torah was meant to explain aspects of the written Torah. The Oral Torah though always has to prove that it makes sense according to the rules of the 5 Books of Moses.
With the books of the prophets, they weren't written by Moses at the command of g-d, So, I would like to see where in the Gemara this is discussed because to be honest reading you it looks to me that Solomon sinned in stages. At first he only let his wives do it but then he himself to please his wives put up these forms of Idol Worship. First it says he went after the Ashororeth. Kings Chapter 11 Verse 5. Then in verse 7 it says he built a high place for Chemosh, After this it says that g-d became angry with Solomon because he strayed from g-d. It then says in verse 11 since you have not kept my decrees that I have commanded you I will split the kingdom. So it could be at first he let his wives do it to which it was said he wasn't as righteous as his father. But once he started doing it himself then g-d became angry with him.
I would like to see the Gemarah in Sanhedrim because it doesn't make sense to me. The Gemarah cannot contradict what the Torah (or the prophets) says without a good explanation as to why. Artscroll gives this interpretation but does not cite a source. Is this ONE opinion of many. Also, again the Prophets isn't like the Torah in which there are certain rules that are used to deduce certain laws that are not explained in detail. It sounds strange to me.
Rabbi Kahane did lament the fact that Jewish men learned Gemarah before knowing Tanach and this is against what the Gemarah says which says you should first learn the written Bible and then Talmud. It leads to all types of distortions of the religion because without a solid base in the Bible the arguments are meaningless that take place in Talmud. It is like learning constitutional law before learning the constitution and the historical background to the constitution. Because lawyers today don't know the historical framework of the constitution this is why they are so lost and interpet the constitution in a way the founding fathers never would. It is the same thing learning Gemarah without knowing the Jewish Bible. It is meaningless and you interpet the Torah in a way that clearly if you studied the written Bible you would never come to that conclusion.
I myself didn't study the written Bible in detail until after I was forced out of my parents home because they tried to force me to take medication. I bordered with a family that was from India. They were somewhat toward their tradition so it interested me in my own tradition and going to day school I didn't know the bible that well. They were very nice to me. Nicer then Jews have been to me. I guess they respected because in India they have a similar problem to what is going on in Israel.
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Excellent post adam613. I have been saying this for years and I personally have witnessed what not studying the Tanach and the Bible does to Jews. It makes a dumb generation where most learners don't know a thing and most Rabbis are not too much better off.
jdl4ever:
Yaakov, the one 168 year gap (or something around that number) between the secular chronicles of events and the Jewish calender has been a topic of dispute for thousands of years. No one has yet given a good answer in my opinion and it is still argued about. It all gets down to exactly when was the first temple destroyed (and what does the 70 year thing mean, is itstarting when the temple was destroyed or when the Jews were exiled, or not literally 70 years but some hidden message PLUS when does it end). The jewish commentators argue on this and seder olam is only one opinion. I don't know all the details since I tried studying this a while back, and it is like getting into an endless pit with so many loose ends and different opinions. The opinion that years were deleted is a radical opinion that one recent Rabbi introduced, and I don't believe it. Many state that Darius was a generic name for all persian rulers and didn't correspond to the ruler known today as Darius.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE TANACH DOES NOT SAY EXACTLY WHAT YEAR THE FIRST TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED (the 70 year thing is ambiguous) and I don't think it says either exactly when the second temple was built. The only way to derive such information is to work backward and some of the info is sketchy. I think the only verse that indirectly menchans the approximate lengh of the second temple is in Daniel and it says something like 70 weeks is about how long after the first temple until the exile (490 years) and the commentators argue exacly how to fit in these years (again, starting from when, the start of building the second temple, the time of completion of building etc). I think the most popular approach is that the 490 yrs includes 70 yrs of exile and 420 years the second temple stood according to most commentaries (forget about the secular dates). But the secular dates are different so hence the controversy.
Christian Zionist:
It is very interesting to explore the mysteries of Tanak with my fellow Jewish posters here.
The book of Job is a mystery. Some scholars argue that Job was a grand son of the Patriarch Jacob (son of the tribal leader Issachar - Genesis 46:13). Some say he was a gentile and a descendant of Esau.
Thanks jdl4ever, adam613 and Yacov for your explanations!
MarZutra:
I too wish to thank all of you as you are far more schooled in Torah/Tanach than I. I find it very enlightening to read these posts. My Orthodox friend had once told me about a book by Elahu Shatz "The Proofs of the Accuracies of the Bible" I have never read it but I understand it is very well written.
In any event, thanks for the Torah knowledge and keep up the good work.... :)
Christian Zionist:
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on January 03, 2007, 12:31:33 AM ---
--- Quote from: Christian Zionist on January 02, 2007, 01:34:19 PM ---
It is very interesting to explore the mysteries of Tanach with my fellow Jewish posters here.
The book of Job is a mystery. Some scholars argue that Job was a grand son of the Patriarch Jacob (son of the tribal leader Issachar - Genesis 46:13). Some say he was a gentile and a descendant of Esau.
Thanks jdl4ever, adam613 and Yacov for your explanations!
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Some say it is all allegorical. I think Chaim said that Job was Abraham's father reincarnated at The Splitting of The Red Sea. If it wasn't him, then it was another Chaim, Sanhedrin Member Rabbi Chaim Richman of The Temple Institute on his Arutz 7 show Temple Talk.
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I don't think that the book of Job is an allegory. Because Ezekiel 14:20 mentions Job with Noah and Daniel. One of the bonafide prophets of the Tanak referring Job with 2 other Biblical historical figures makes it clear that the book of Job is historical and Job himself was considered as a historical person in ancient Israel.
Ezekiel 14:20 "Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord G-d, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall deliver their own souls only by their righteousness"
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