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magic in Judaisim

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shimon:
can someone help me understand the use of magic in Judaisim. I know Rambam is opposed to the belief in it and he doesnt believe it exists but then how come the gemara says that illusions are ok but real magic is not so obviously there used to be magic. Also the Gemara brings up many instances of rabbis using magic to bring fruit from one side of the field to Another.So can Lubab or Tzvi Ben Roshel or other chachamim help me with this issue.

p.s The Gemara also says that the ability to do magic is a requirement to be in the sanhedrin, just as being a noble,bearded,g-d fearing, smart is

Boeregeneraal:
Jews practice magic ?! :o

Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
I dont know if "magic" is the right word. It has different meanings one can think of. Technically using a cell phone can be looked upon as magic, or the same with the splitting of the sea. All in all we should firmly place in our hearts and minds that their is One G-d who is incharge of everything. 
 Their is also a prohibition of sorcery and witchcraft, and its a commandment for the Sanhedrin to Judge and execute a witch, so thus their had to be witches and sorcerers for that to happen (their is also a story of it). Their is a level of "power" that the other side has, but just because it exists doesn't mean one is allowed to go and use it, that includes communicating with the dead, deamons etc.
  About the illusions- that means that if you for example see a magic show, you know that it is a card illusion so many hold that it is allowed as long as your not giving the person the thought that they are somewhat devine.
  Also in Torah magic or miracles doesn't prove anything and one cant say im a prophet because one can show you these "magic" miracles or whatever. 
  The Hachamim knew a lot about the secrets of the Torah and since everything is written in it, they were able to know a lot of the information about the nature of the World and the codes to it. For example the smallest student of the Talmud knew how to ressurrect the dead. BUT with that said they rarly used their powers, or (better word) information, because they were G-d fearing. Also they recognized it as coming from G-d, so for example when a very big Rightious person prays for rain, yes G-d many times answered their prayers and immedietly gave rain, but they prayed to G-d for it, and G-d many times says that He listines to the rightious sometimes even agains't His own decree (for example G-d says I will destroy the Jewish nation, and Moshe says no, and G-d listins to him).
  Also with that example you bring, it also proves that "Lo Bishemayim" - not in the heavens. And that miracles dont prove who is right or wrong. Rebbe Eliezer and the Hachamim had an argument in Torah law, and Rebbe Eliezer said if I am right may this tree move from one side to the other, it happened, then he said..... until he said let the walls of this Beit Midrash collapse, while they were collapsing Rabbi Yoshua said go back, so then for a long time the walls were in the middle because of the 2 commands. Then came a heavenly voice that said that Rebbe Eliezers opinion is correct, but then Rebbe Yoshua said, the Torah is not in the heavens and when G-d gave the Torah He said go by the majority of the Hachamim, and he was correct and that is the opinion that was used. 
 About "magic" as requirement to be on Sanhedrin, I dont know, where did you hear that from? (maybe you are speaking about them knowing all the 70 languages?)

MassuhDGoodName:
Re:  "...Jews practice magic ?!"

Sure!

Haven't you ever seen a Jew pull a rabbit out of his yamulke?

shimon:

--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on April 29, 2008, 10:05:33 PM ---I dont know if "magic" is the right word. It has different meanings one can think of. Technically using a cell phone can be looked upon as magic, or the same with the splitting of the sea. All in all we should firmly place in our hearts and minds that their is One G-d who is incharge of everything. 
 Their is also a prohibition of sorcery and witchcraft, and its a commandment for the Sanhedrin to Judge and execute a witch, so thus their had to be witches and sorcerers for that to happen (their is also a story of it). Their is a level of "power" that the other side has, but just because it exists doesn't mean one is allowed to go and use it, that includes communicating with the dead, deamons etc.
  About the illusions- that means that if you for example see a magic show, you know that it is a card illusion so many hold that it is allowed as long as your not giving the person the thought that they are somewhat devine.
  Also in Torah magic or miracles doesn't prove anything and one cant say im a prophet because one can show you these "magic" miracles or whatever. 
  The Hachamim knew a lot about the secrets of the Torah and since everything is written in it, they were able to know a lot of the information about the nature of the World and the codes to it. For example the smallest student of the Talmud knew how to ressurrect the dead. BUT with that said they rarly used their powers, or (better word) information, because they were G-d fearing. Also they recognized it as coming from G-d, so for example when a very big Rightious person prays for rain, yes G-d many times answered their prayers and immedietly gave rain, but they prayed to G-d for it, and G-d many times says that He listines to the rightious sometimes even agains't His own decree (for example G-d says I will destroy the Jewish nation, and Moshe says no, and G-d listins to him).
  Also with that example you bring, it also proves that "Lo Bishemayim" - not in the heavens. And that miracles dont prove who is right or wrong. Rebbe Eliezer and the Hachamim had an argument in Torah law, and Rebbe Eliezer said if I am right may this tree move from one side to the other, it happened, then he said..... until he said let the walls of this Beit Midrash collapse, while they were collapsing Rabbi Yoshua said go back, so then for a long time the walls were in the middle because of the 2 commands. Then came a heavenly voice that said that Rebbe Eliezers opinion is correct, but then Rebbe Yoshua said, the Torah is not in the heavens and when G-d gave the Torah He said go by the majority of the Hachamim, and he was correct and that is the opinion that was used. 
 About "magic" as requirement to be on Sanhedrin, I dont know, where did you hear that from? (maybe you are speaking about them knowing all the 70 languages?)

--- End quote ---
thanks alot tzadik here is a translation i got ( look at the last sentence)


According to R. Jose b. Ḥalafta, the members of the Great Bet Din were required to possess the following qualifications: scholarship, modesty, and popularity among their fellow men (Tosef., Ḥag. ii. 9; Sanh. 88b). According to an interpretation in Sifre, Num. 92 (ed. Friedmann, p. 25b), they had also to be strong and courageous. Only such were eligible, moreover, as had filled three offices of gradually increasing dignity, namely, those of local judge, and member successively of two magistracies at Jerusalem (Jose b. Ḥalafta, l.c.). R. Johanan, an amora of the third century, enumerates the qualifications of the members of the Sanhedrin as follows: they must be tall, of imposing appearance, and of advanced age; and they must be learned and must understand foreign languages as well as some of the arts of the necromancer (Sanh. 19a).

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