Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
magic in Judaisim
MassuhDGoodName:
Magic is considered to be methods by which mankind may use various rites, rituals, incantations, etc., to cause the laws of nature to "bend to their will". The English word itself is derived from the same root as the "Four Magi"; Persian 'shamans' mentioned in the New Testament. Examples of magic are "Voodoo rituals to cause an indifferent individual to fall in love, making a Voodoo doll with a piece of someone's clothing or hair and sticking pins into it while chanting particular words in order to cause harm, etc. .
Miracles are something entirely different. Judaism considers a miracle to be a Divine Intervention which completely overrides the laws of the natural world to effect the Divine Will. Prayers and appeals to The Creator, in and of themselves, do not cause a miracle to occur. When a true miracle takes place, a "supernatural" (outside of all known laws of nature) event takes place, and this event can not be explained using "reason" or the scientific method.
In colloquial use these terms are "thrown around" with abandon. People refer to "magic" to describe the tricks and "illusions" of professional entertainers. Closer to the actual definitions are the rites of Wicca, Voodoo, Satanic Cults, etc...all of which lay claim to affecting change through human intervention.
We also misuse the term "miracle" to refer to any circumstance deemed favorable to us, such as "It's a miracle that we weren't hit by that car". "I got the job!"..."It's a miracle!" Perhaps lubab can enlighten us further on the various degrees of Divine Intervention, but most things we call a miracle today fall short of The Parting of the Red Sea, or The Sun Standing Still to allow extra hours of battle, etc.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on April 30, 2008, 06:16:57 PM ---
I spoke to somebody that agrees with the RAMBAM, he said that when the gemara refers to magic, it means illusions performed as if they are magic. The RAMBAM would probably say that the magic in egypt was illusion too. (and I think this was actually one of the RAMBAN`s criticisms of the RAMBAM, he said can he seriously say that the torah says the magic done by the egyptians, spoken of in the tenach, was illusion?!!) For particular cases in gemara, this is really a question for a maimonidean.. But they might answer all the same way. "illusion".
Most jews today, are not maimonideans. This is an area where very few jews agree with the RAMBAM. And they actually struggle to explain how the RAMBAM could held such a position.
--- End quote ---
Interesting. I don't understand the resistance to Rambam's position. Why can't the magic of the Egyptians described in the Torah really be illusion that they presented as magic? I actually have read some interesting interpretations of the whole staff into a snake ordeal. I think it said something like Moshe trumped them because his ACTUALLY was a staff that turned to a REAL snake and ate the others, unlike the old Egyptian tricksters' who often did this popular routine where the illusion made it appear as if they were turning sticks into snakes but they really weren't.
shimon:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 01, 2008, 10:24:09 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on April 30, 2008, 06:16:57 PM ---
I spoke to somebody that agrees with the RAMBAM, he said that when the gemara refers to magic, it means illusions performed as if they are magic. The RAMBAM would probably say that the magic in egypt was illusion too. (and I think this was actually one of the RAMBAN`s criticisms of the RAMBAM, he said can he seriously say that the torah says the magic done by the egyptians, spoken of in the tenach, was illusion?!!) For particular cases in gemara, this is really a question for a maimonidean.. But they might answer all the same way. "illusion".
Most jews today, are not maimonideans. This is an area where very few jews agree with the RAMBAM. And they actually struggle to explain how the RAMBAM could held such a position.
--- End quote ---
Interesting. I don't understand the resistance to Rambam's position. Why can't the magic of the Egyptians described in the Torah really be illusion that they presented as magic? I actually have read some interesting interpretations of the whole staff into a snake ordeal. I think it said something like Moshe trumped them because his ACTUALLY was a staff that turned to a REAL snake and ate the others, unlike the old Egyptian tricksters' who often did this popular routine where the illusion made it appear as if they were turning sticks into snakes but they really weren't.
--- End quote ---
one of the resistances i have is that there is a story in the gemara that says that a rabbi bought a cow in Alexandria. When giving the cow a drink the cow turned into a piece of wood. The rabbi went back to the clerk and said " i bought a cow but it is a piece of wood". then The clerk replied " ok ill give the money back but know that everything in Alexandria is made from magic". How could this be an illusion
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Well I can see then why this would fit with Rambam's opinion. He would probably assert that there was a deeper meaning in that parable about the cow turning to wood, and that assuming it's 'magic' or impossible or nonsense would be a disrespect to our sages. Rambam states that when the sages say something that seems like it's an impossibility, there are 3 types of responses. 2 of them disrespect the sages. First: by insisting that the impossible or completely fantastical thing is true and to be believed on the simple level, this makes the sages look bad. second: by a person saying because it is so fantastic, then the person doesn't believe the sages and says their phony or whatever. And the third response is look into it for a deeper meaning, which a righteous and humble person would do.
takebackourtemple:
According to Physics, there are four forces in the universe: The Strong Force, the Weak Force, the Electromagnetic Force, and Gravity. Perhaps there may be more, but how to measure them is a different story.
Just for the purpose of what if. What if there was another force called the divine force? This could be an attractive force with a direction facing hashem, of course it would have its own unique properties. On earth this force would be unmeasurable, since it's direction is everywhere and its magnitude is infinate. It's magnitude would have to be balanced in all directions to prevent it from ripping us apart. Because of its perfect balance this force could not be measured on earth, but perhaps in the heavens or during the time of Moshiach it can be felt. Of course ripples in this force can occur every once in a while. Perhaps someone like Moshe Rabbainu had the capability to create such ripples. This force could possibly be used to do things that normally could not be done in this universe.
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