Efraim Karsh?

[Ben Ish Chai]

Shalom

I have been reading some Efraim Karsh on the side of my copious amounts of Kahane readings.
currently, i'm reading a smaller books of his called "Islamic Imperialism", in which he outlines in explicit clarity the marauding and expansionist, violent BASIS of the religion of islam, and the teachings of the evil profake Muhammad.

I am mainly interested in if anyone here has read his major piece called "Fabricating Israeli History: The "New Historians"".
how did you find this book?
is it worth the extremely high prices on amazon?
does he successfully debunk the sick revisionist historians?

[q_q_]

Shalom

I have been reading some Efraim Karsh on the side of my copious amounts of Kahane readings.
currently, i'm reading a smaller books of his called "Islamic Imperialism", in which he outlines in explicit clarity the marauding and expansionist, violent BASIS of the religion of islam, and the teachings of the evil profake Muhammad.

I am mainly interested in if anyone here has read his major piece called "Fabricating Israeli History: The "New Historians"".
how did you find this book?
is it worth the extremely high prices on amazon?
does he successfully debunk the sick revisionist historians?

NO NO NO

It is a TINY book, the only reason Amazon are selling it for alot, is because amazon are not really selling it, they do not have it in stock. It is just second hand sellers selling it at ridiculous prices.

[q_q_]

onto the contents, it is useful if you want to argue with somebod about benny morris..

but actually, apparently benny morris  has gone a bit right wing.  Pro transfer infact!!! He was discredited alot by Karsh. His book since going pro transfer, is apparently still quite focussed on arab suffering and is a pro arab book.   

If you are for some reason, a scholar of "the new historians" such as morris or pappe, then it is worth it. But I don't know many who are. It is not very relevant to refuting leftists either.  They work by using simple emotional arguments, not elaborate arguments of leftist intellectual historians.
If they did ever cite a name, it might have been benny morris, he was like the King of them, even praised by Finkelstein. But not anymore!!!!

The other book by Karsh that I got, was on 1948, but I was a bit annoyed about that book.. It had no references. I knew it would have no references because the reviews - largely positive - mentioned that as a criticism. 
If you want to convince somebody, and you have no primary source, just a book by a historian, then it's a joke.

If you want to refute the left, then listen to the best rightists.  Kahane is a good one!!

I have heard of some people being great orators.. Dr Herzog e.g. in the Herzog vs Toynbee debate. Abba Eban.   

Joan Peters is a really dry boring classic.. Rightist..

Ephraim Karsh's book on the "new historians" is not as useful, it is just what it says on the tin. And what use is that?  It finds some of their claims , e.g. "ben gurion said x" , and it shows how they twisted the sources.  (I couldn't care less about defending ben gurion anyway.. He ordered rabin to fire on Begin and his men - altalena incident)

I am not into history anyway.. but I did look into it for the sake of arguing with people..  Joan Peters was most useful..  (people criiticise the turkish census part of her book, saying maybe some arabs didn't get counted, but there is alot more in her book than that)

This guy , rabbi joe katz, has some great history, based on joan peters and I suppose other classics
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/

[Ben Ish Chai]

wow! q q, i am very impressed, and also very grateful to you!

you saved me some money - i dont think i will be buying this book anymore.  You are right, I hoped this book would give me fodder to deconstruct the leftists and arab loving jews, but i guess it's more of an academic flaming war between him and benny morris (what about the other sicko new historians?)

i am very surprised that this book has no primary sources - the book Islamic Imperialism seems to be quite well sourced...

I also agree with all of your other sentiments - i do not really want to defend Ben Gurion, i am a Irgun supporter myself, and after reading Begin's REVOLT, i will never forgive Ben Gurion and his Haganah for their actions (let alone to mention the awful Altalena massacre).

I am putting together a reading list of great books - i have, of course, read all the english language Kahane books (my favorites are Story of the JDL and Uncomfortable Questions for Comfortable Jews) - i see that Perfidy by Ben Hecht is mentioned often by the rav, and thus, I have added this to my list.  do you have any other suggestions that I MUST have for this part of my personal library?

[q_q_]

the book ".. the new historians" has the sources required to make his case. The references typically being chapter and verse in their leftist book, their reference, and an analysis of how they took things out of context.

The 1948 one didn't. Maybe because of the style of the publisher.
If you read all the reviews on amazon.com for whatever book then you see issues like this.

So if one of his book has sources and another does not, you would know.

I actually quit looking at all the standard arguments against the left, such as those by Dershowitz or I suppose Samuel Katz..    They all involve

a) Stressing how much israel has done for the arabs - as if that is a good thing.
e.g. You hear people like this brag with statements like "what other people has offered to give away X% of their national homeland?"

Kahane's way, of just saying that is wrong.. is best.

b) They argue how israel is keeping with international law.. When really international law is irrelevant.  Jewish lives are at stake here, and so if the law is an ass, then we should not follow it to our graves, smiling about how we abided by international law.   
And the fact is, the UN do comdemn israel, so I would stop trying to claim israel abides by international law. (even if it does, we are nitpicking to make the case).

Rabbi Kahane's response to the charge was best.. He said to the arab. "Don't play games with me saying we don't follow international law. When you don't want to follow international law, you don't follow international law.. [the guy objected] kahane said - I don't mean you personally, but the people you represent..     (see national press club, the one with the red paint or pigs blood that was poured over him)

c)they try to sit and play judge..  As if they care equally about arabs(our enemies) as much as they care for jews.  (ok.. you can actually be in favour of jews even if you take the seat as judge)..

But it's much easier to be tribal like they are!

In a national press club talk, and in a chat with mike wallace, when it was put to him by an arab, or by mike wallace, that jews are thieves, e.t.c.
He didn't even bother to counter that.. He said The problem we have is that the arabs do believe that, and that is why they have to be transferred.

Kahane - for better or worse - had a way of finding the shortest answer to break an argument.. When he was asked how can one justify wanting to return to land after 3000 years , when people are living there. He said well, alot of jews DO feel that it is their land.. And so I don't care whether you justify it or not. (if you talk about feelings, they cannot argue)


d)they are in favour of a 2 state solution

-
the best way to learn is probably to watch debates.. The only ones I really watched were Kahane.

I think though the only way to really win them over is when an Arab tells them how it is. Walid Shoebat is brilliant at that, but alot of his multimedia has gone from his website.

Leftists  are defence lawyers for the enemy, so a major way they are beaten is when their client - the person they think they are defending, turns around and tells them he's the bad guy. 

I would add joan peters arguments to Kahane's, to say we did not steal the land.. And that arabs immigrated into mandatory palestine even more than jews.
(so although they lived in neighbouring countries, but they are not indigenous "p@lestinians")

I read some good articles by a guy called Charles Morse (charles not chuck)
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0202/0202palestine.htm
simple things really..  Saying that in mandatory p@lestine, 2 p@lestinian states were created.. One for jews, one for arabs.. And now there is merely talk of  splitting the jewish "p@lestinian state" into another one for the arabs.


As a Kahanist, I don't think there is much to debate with the left..
They say the palestinians water has been cut off.  I say good.  They want to kill us..

A few days ago I discovered this, one of israel's great statesman and orators.

http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/video/2008/wallace/eban_abba.html
A leftist of course.. But Useful for improving one'e english and sounding erudite.

Maybe if you really argue with leftists, then you will learn how to argue with them... (though you may train them in the process).. But don't nitpick and go academic..

You can nitpick... I have heard ian duncan smith once said when asked about israel breaking UN resolutions, that the resolutions israel has broken are not in the UN charter, they are not the most important ones.. unlike Saddam/iraq. As far as nickpicking goes, that's pretty good.
But the issue we have with the arabs, is not that they break UN resolutions , the issue in 1948 was not that they broke a UN resolution, is was that they tried to start another holocaust.  That's the crime. Who cares about UN resolutions.. We may both be "guilty" of breaking UN resolutions.


So you see.. all these academic books are saying
we are not breaking UN resoltions, are are good boys who do what we are told, and we treat palestinians so nicely, and we have given them so much..
It's all irrelevant stupid drivel.   And you can see why we find it hard to win  the argument by playing that game.. 

Walid Shoebat could probably win a debate on those terms.. even just saying how much israel has done for the palestinians.. But he is a palestinian.. He really knows , it's believable, and they cannot really argue with him. He said they do not want a palestinian state!! They just want to destroy israel..
I don't have much access to his stuff though.
It can be done though, just making the case that Israel is justified, and the arabs are worse..

I would avoid the leftist drivel.. As Kahane said, it is either their land or it is not their land. If it is their land, don't play games, give it to them. And if it is not their land, then annex it(take it all and say it is yours!).
We believe it is our land not because of the UN, but because of the Torah.
And if they are trying to kill us - and they are, then no guilt about cutting off their water and all this..
I really don't have anything to say to leftists..

Muslims, fine.. One can tell them as Walid has, that in the tenach, all the countries that attack israel in the end of days are muslim, and they are defeated. This, they understand.  They would even respect it.
They see you are no leftist, and they are not afraid to show their true self. They say they're going to beat us, and they quote their hadith about the jew hiding behind a tree..  I would say in their terms, Inshallah, there will be a big final war, and we will win, as our books say. They respect that! They are really just playing games talking about the UN..

[q_q_]

If you want to do it, then maybe you could find some leftist forums and practice your craft there?

Or in some areas, it's almost inevitable that you meet muslims, e.g. at university. You can really discuss things there. At some universities that is the only thing to discuss..  All muslims do is discuss islam and the politics related to it.   I am not against talking to muslims on an individual level - though every one of them is a missionary..  I am against Group talks  though.

When I was in a muslim area, even the muslim guy serving in the newsagent would start discussions with me every day about it!  (I did have muslim friends that would speak to him too, so maybe that was part of it). And I could pronounce his name correctly, they respect that.
It gave me a great insight into islam and muslims, an insight that very few people have. They discussed islam all the time.. I just joined in with them - they wre only too happy. Nothing else to do really, it was such a muslim area, my friends there were muslim, it was inevitable and easy.  Outside of those conditions, there are certainly better ways for a jew to spend his time! But it didn't waste that time, the time was spent productively discussing with them.. It was like a holiday for a year or two.

I am out of that area, cut off all ties with them, and am now working on my hebrew and hopefully will eventually be able to understand tenach in hebrew .   I will then acquire a bar ilan responsa CD with lots and lots of hebrew sources.. So I don't need to spend a fortune on hebrew-english books. Much better than talking to leftists or muslims.

If people don't realise that arabs are the bad guys by now, that they are in the wrong, then they will never realise it.  I can talk logically, but I cannot perform miracles.

I bet even Binyamin Netanyahu would be hard pushed to name any leftist he has brought over to the right side!

[Ben Ish Chai]

qq.... all I can say is WOW! that was a terrific post, and i really appreciate your elaborating and explanations.

Sadly, i have read many of the books you mention.  I have read Netanyahu (who i do like to a degree - seems he is moderate enough to truly be involved in Israeli politics at the highest levels, but dedicated enough to Israel that he debunks all Arab claims to the lands and reinforces ours), and Derschowitz's Case for Israel (though i have soured on this book, I find it amazing how some Jews call him a HAWK - he is firmly entrenched in the suicide state (2-state) solution!)

I am not really interested in talking politics with Muslims as much as with my family and fellow Jews. There is of course a wide and diverse set of opinions, and not all are in favor of a true and viable solution to the arab problem in Israel.  The sad part about it all, is that I actually enjoy the culture, and do not hate having an arab minority in Israel - however, i do WANT a JEWISH COUNTRY for JEWS in ERETZ YISRAEL, and therefore subscribe to Kahane's teachings and praise him as the last true salvation for Israel.

Something we might want to discuss, since it seems this is where the thread is going:
you say "We believe it is our land not because of the UN, but because of the Torah."

This is the really distressing thing to me:  I am NOT religious, but I am unique in that i DO believe that we need to live in Israel, we need a place to go when the world turns it back on us or murders us, and I DO believe that hashem has ordained us to return to the land of our forefathers, promised to us in the covenant.  For these reasons, I am willing to listen to the Kahanist message, to have a non-Western democracy, and to do whatever it takes to make sure we keep the land of Israel and expand the borders and strengthen the settler movements.  The "West Bank" is a travesty and a farce, it should belong to Israel, and i find it sad that the Two-state "solution" (we created Jordan for them) has become a THREE-state solution!  I am absoultely diametrically OPPOSED to any more concessions being made on Israel's behalf - why do we keep giving and giving with no benefits coming in return?
Netanyahu said it best - Israeli's are dying for peace and will do anything to achive this end.  Arabs see peace as a MEANS to the ends - peace treaties weaken Israel incrementally, making us that much easier to destroy (the "end" they seek).

The real issue here becomes - how many Jews worldwide truly believe in the torah?  Even in Israel, the religious people who are zealots for Israel and believe in the state being ordained from god (and thus, justifying whatever we need to keep it) are not even a majority.  In the galut, where jews are typically more religious and swarm to synagogues, real judiasm has been filled by the need for socialization and is merely a customary gesture on the high holidays.  Zionism has never been a religious movement, rather it was a socialist one - it only succeeded because even though the movement was NOT religious, it was UNAPOLOGETIC, and happened in the wake of the Holocaust - jews felt helpless and ashamed, and were willing to get physical, to die, to kill... in order to reclaim our home and have a place that will give salvation to jews in the face of antisemitism.
Now Jews are filled with the emptiness of this socialist vision, and have a hard time buying into it.  They are not religious, they do not believe in the unapologetic zionism of Jabotinsky, but rather they are slaves to Western Democracy and the opinions of those hostile to us.

Can Israel really ever be saved if this is the situation we face?  I have tried talking calmly, arguing till I am blue in the face, etc.  with no success.  I simply cannot convince people that we need to do whatever it takes to save Israel, even if that means going directly against democracy and what the west wants of us!  People brush this aside as insane, "religious", or simple-minded; are we destined to thousands MORE years of EXILE.... with the state of "jews" and jewish "leaders" and organizations today, i have a hard time convincing others (or myself even) otherwise!

[q_q_]

qq.... all I can say is WOW! that was a terrific post, and i really appreciate your elaborating and explanations.

Sadly, i have read many of the books you mention.  I have read Netanyahu (who i do like to a degree - seems he is moderate enough to truly be involved in Israeli politics at the highest levels, but dedicated enough to Israel that he debunks all Arab claims to the lands and reinforces ours), and Derschowitz's Case for Israel (though i have soured on this book, I find it amazing how some Jews call him a HAWK - he is firmly entrenched in the suicide state (2-state) solution!)

to quote the amazing Daniel Ben Avraham , who was on israel national radio in 2002.
He said of ariel sharon "his plan is to say he wants a PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi state, and delay it for as long as possible"

Netanyahu is similar.

I am not really interested in talking politics with Muslims as much as with my family and fellow Jews. There is of course a wide and diverse set of opinions, and not all are in favor of a true and viable solution to the arab problem in Israel.  The sad part about it all, is that I actually enjoy the culture, and do not hate having an arab minority in Israel - however, i do WANT a JEWISH COUNTRY for JEWS in ERETZ YISRAEL, and therefore subscribe to Kahane's teachings and praise him as the last true salvation for Israel.

Something we might want to discuss, since it seems this is where the thread is going:
you say "We believe it is our land not because of the UN, but because of the Torah."

This is the really distressing thing to me:  I am NOT religious, but I am unique in that i DO believe that we need to live in Israel, we need a place to go when the world turns it back on us or murders us, and I DO believe that hashem has ordained us to return to the land of our forefathers, promised to us in the covenant. 

yes, that convenant, the one written about in the Torah, the one people would only believe if they believed the Torah.

which I am not sure you do..

lack of observance is one thing, lack of trust in G-d is another thing.  That can be put down to human weakness.

But disbelief in the truth of the Torah , is of far greater consequences, because if you do not accept that every word of the torah is true, then you really have no reason to accept the covenant it tells you about.
(presumably you refer to the covenant G-d made with Avraham that he would give his descendents the land).

Your stance would not stand up to a grilling from rabbi kahane , he dealt with people like that all the time. See his debate with dennis prager.

For these reasons, I am willing to listen to the Kahanist message, to have a non-Western democracy, and to do whatever it takes to make sure we keep the land of Israel and expand the borders and strengthen the settler movements.  The "West Bank" is a travesty and a farce, it should belong to Israel, and i find it sad that the Two-state "solution" (we created Jordan for them) has become a THREE-state solution!  I am absoultely diametrically OPPOSED to any more concessions being made on Israel's behalf - why do we keep giving and giving with no benefits coming in return?
Netanyahu said it best - Israeli's are dying for peace and will do anything to achive this end.  Arabs see peace as a MEANS to the ends - peace treaties weaken Israel incrementally, making us that much easier to destroy (the "end" they seek).

they are tired, hopeless.
what solution are you suggesting?

Rabbi Kahane's solution, of transferring them and cutting off american aid,  people are not so receptive too, because of charges of racism and fear that we need america.

A less radical suggestion you could try, is
I find people more receptive to tovia singer's solution..

Transfer of all arabs that do not accept living alongside israel as a jewish state - jewish sovereignty.
(most arabs, with their honour, would not sign such an agreement.. So that way, 95%+ would be transferred, and israel would be in a better situation)

And to their fear of that america would cut off foreign aid?  The evangelical christians would not allow that to happen.

The real issue here becomes - how many Jews worldwide truly believe in the torah?  Even in Israel, the religious people who are zealots for Israel and believe in the state being ordained from G-d (and thus, justifying whatever we need to keep it) are not even a majority.  In the galut, where jews are typically more religious and swarm to synagogues, real judiasm has been filled by the need for socialization and is merely a customary gesture on the high holidays.  Zionism has never been a religious movement, rather it was a socialist one - it only succeeded because even though the movement was NOT religious, it was UNAPOLOGETIC, and happened in the wake of the Holocaust - jews felt helpless and ashamed, and were willing to get physical, to die, to kill... in order to reclaim our home and have a place that will give salvation to jews in the face of antisemitism.
Now Jews are filled with the emptiness of this socialist vision, and have a hard time buying into it.  They are not religious, they do not believe in the unapologetic zionism of Jabotinsky, but rather they are slaves to Western Democracy and the opinions of those hostile to us.

Can Israel really ever be saved if this is the situation we face?  I have tried talking calmly, arguing till I am blue in the face, etc.  with no success.  I simply cannot convince people that we need to do whatever it takes to save Israel, even if that means going directly against democracy and what the west wants of us!  People brush this aside as insane, "religious", or simple-minded; are we destined to thousands MORE years of EXILE.... with the state of "jews" and jewish "leaders" and organizations today, i have a hard time convincing others (or myself even) otherwise!

see rabbi kahane talking on that morning breakfast program..  Or braideis is fine..

He said Do the arabs have the right to peacefully vote the state of israel out of existance.. To gain sovereignty and thus cause it to no longer be a jewish state.  To no longer be a state where we are captains of our own ship. (maybe they will turn it into an arab state, maybe a binational state - yeah right, we know that jews would be thrown out.. But the point is.. Do they have that right , to remove the jewish state like that?)

If they say "Yes" then they are an anti zionist.  "Or", a yoyo
If they say "No" then they are Meir Kahane.  (context was people hated kahane and would not debate him)

Basically, if they say no, then they do not think Israel should be a democracy..

There is another route to all this..

As I learnt from listening to Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb 's online audio (RDG is the logic master!)

He said,
In America, democracy is not the highest value, there are some things more important than democracy.

And he gave an example..

Suppose, 51% of people vote to kill the remaining 49% ? 

It is not allowed..  The constitution or bill of rights, stops it.

People do not have the right to do that.

So similarly , Israel should have something similar to a constitution/ bill of rights, putting limitations on democracy..

For the sake of definitions, I must point out, a misconception people that RDG described in his audio. Democracy by does not mean freedom. Freedom is great, but actually all democracy means is that the majourity pushes the minority around.  (and presumably, as kahane said, one man, one vote - hence the arab problem)

You may want to listen to some of his audios if you can handle it!! He spends ages covering each point so it is completely logical and defended.
http://www.dovidgottlieb.com/Rabbi_Gottlieb_Tapes.html
At rare times I have disagreed with a point in the lecture, or I have issues, often myself at fault.. . He is about as logical as you can get.  Most of them are not relevant to this though.. Apaer from the democracy one, which I summarised here, and you may want to listen to his argument that the evidence suggests that the Torah is true.


So, in talking to fellow jews, try Tovia singer's solution,
and regarding the democracy issue, just say that arabs do not have the right to vote the jewish state out of existance.
You could go with tovia singer's form of transfer. They will be such a minority, that even with them voting, they will not be able to vote israel out of existance as a jewish state, or even a state called israel.

Try those arguments.

Regarding rabbi Kahane's argument, it is more hard line..
Rabbi Kahane was following jewish law to the letter, he was a rabbi, in politics.  And he was brilliant enough to use secular arguments to defend Torah policy, to a secular public.  An extraordinary feat! All his policies came from the Torah, it was unbelievable.
In jewish law, they cannot vote. Because a non-jew cannot govern the land.  If they want to live there they have to live as strangers - with social rights, but not voting rights.  They will certainly not accept it, and so he said they had to be transferred. And because of their birth rate, even living amongst a majourity of arab saints, would mean it is not a jewish state.. We cannot be a minority in our own land.. And they had to go..    That's really why Rabbi Kahane took the line he did. 

[Ben Ish Chai]

once again qq, i must commend you for another fantastic response!

though it has been a two person thread, and is hardly about Efraim Karsh anymore, I suggest more people join in on the discussion.

Though i must say, i think you misunderstood what i said.  I am not religious, but I DO believe in every word of the torah, i believe in it very strongly, and thus I am a Kahanist - could you really be one without believing in the torah?  Though we have many gentile members and their hearts are in the right places, I truly question if they can understand the urgency and fear that a jew feels when surveying the situation in Israel today.

I have listened to both the morning breakfast and brandeis programs, as well as having read most of the Rav's (English) books - I find that his strict adherence to the scriptures is what really makes him so much more than a regular politician!  He would show the Jews the hypocracy of their state and "solutions" - he tried to pass a law that was word for word out of the RamBam; and it got SHUT DOWN in the knesset - Israelis (and their politicians) are for the most part NOT religious, and do not believe in the torah - here, I believe, is the truly fatal flaw of the state of Israel (as it stands).

The racist, facist, etc. tags only are applied because the solution is not one that fits in with the "respectability" and "moral code' that the West demands of Israel - the pigs in the knesset today wouldn't know a truly jewish idea if they tripped over one.  They are searching and searching (and searching...) for a Western Democratic solution to the arab population problem, but there really isn't one!  If the people in Israel believed in the torah, then they would have an unapologetic drive to maintain and save Israel... unfortunately, with the current state of "judaism" worldwide (being one ethnically, but not believing in the scriptures), and the vice-grip that Socialist leftist "zionists" have on Israeli politics... I just dont know what the future holds for Israel.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

haredim are 15% of population and religious zionists are now about 15 I think.  So that is 30% of the population that believes in the Torah and growing.  Many of the non-haredi, non-religiouszionist are also "traditional" which means they believe to varying degrees but keep basic customs pesach, kosher etc but maybe not getting too involved in Torah.  But observance seems to be going up among Jewish population.  If it wasn't for certain political parties.... probably more would embrace Judaism.

[q_q_]

<snip>I am not religious, but I DO believe in every word of the torah, i believe in it very strongly,

ok, so you lack observance.. Why was it that when I said

"We believe it is our land not because of the UN, but because of the Torah."

"This is the really distressing thing to me:  "

Do you mean you agree with me?   (I understand you are distressed about the situation in israel)


The other main thing, was you were interested in discussing with jewish leftists..
Can you state specifically what problems you are having convincing them that a 2 state solution is no good?

If you say They want to kill us. I doubt anybody would disagree. If you said that they want a terrorist state, I doubt they would disagree.  I am sure they don't want a palestinian state either.
To the question of a solution , what solution have you suggested, and have you tried what I suggested, e.g. tovia singer's suggestion?
 
I will be controversial
There is a bloodier solution, where we still win.
A left wing solution to this.. The left are going about it - though they don't know it.. They don't know their policy will end in the arabs being thrown out.  After Oslo, they realised the problem, they had avoided the end point, so negotiations never ended.  So, with the disengagement way, they defined the end point..  Say "this is what we are giving you". That's it. You can give it all to them.. The arabs will then realise that they cannot get anymore. They will go into the war phase of their phased plan with less than they hoped). They will start a war.   We win. And really win, throw them out. And the will of the people will be to throw them out.. Because there won't be any guilt about it if they start a full on war.  Problem is.. the longer we wait, the stronger they get.  And now the arabs have nukes.  And it is risky..
And giving away land is problematic halachically.. (most people I speak to say it is forbidden).
The way we are going, this is how it will solve itself.. But I worry that it is taking so long, too long, and if the arabs become stronger than us, and no longer just a rag tag militia, then even this solution will not work.
We could even tell them that we will give them everything we are willing to give them. But if they send even a few missiles, that's it, they're out. We will War against them. And our people won't be on their side of the fence.

BTW, are you trying to convince them to keep torah? That would be why you are failing to convince them of what to do with the arabs.
Convincing them to keep torah is good. But you don't need to do that to convince them of what to do with the arabs.

As Kahane said in his camp sdei chemed talk .  It is easier to convince people of the arab problem, than to convince them to keep shabbat.
type kahana (yes, misspelt like that) into google video, and it comes up
Here is a link
http://tinyurl.com/4enrdv
It may be around 14min in or so, he starts his talk. the description with the video says 14:17
It is unlike any of his other talks.  He is talking to religious kids of around 10-16.. He goes into great details.. it gives alot of insight into kahanism, and really shows how brilliant he was.  No rhetoric.. no oratory prowess. Just pure blunt talk and reasoning.