Poll

Should it be banned?

Yes.
5 (9.1%)
Yes, absolutely.
8 (14.5%)
No.
42 (76.4%)

Total Members Voted: 2

Author Topic: What Do You Think Of Pre-Marital Intimacy And/Or Touching?  (Read 159834 times)

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Offline Katie

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #225 on: June 27, 2008, 02:42:30 AM »
it's unhygienic

the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people  in america have herpes

Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.

I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores.  EVen when dormant one can catch them.  She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.

She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE".  which was a bit embarassing.  Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton!  It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay..   Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!


It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.



well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.


But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.



they'll think ur into milfs or even worse..... GILFS.... hahaha :)

oh well hugging is fun though! and so is kissing. u cant live ur life scared of what other people think lol

I think you are wrong from a religious standpoint.

If the tradition and rule of Orthodox Jews is not to do those things, you dont' want to give antoher Orthodox Jew the impression that you are allowed to do it...

good thing im not an orthodox jew then :) and im glad im not one.. btw thanks for the spelling lesson dr dan ill make sure to go through the forum and find something you misspelled
"Over the last 15 months, we've traveled to every corner of the United States. I've now been in 57 states? I think one left to go." - Barack Obama

haha




Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #226 on: June 27, 2008, 09:26:36 AM »
it's unhygienic

the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people  in america have herpes

Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.

I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores.  EVen when dormant one can catch them.  She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.

She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE".  which was a bit embarassing.  Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton!  It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay..   Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!


It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.



well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.


But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.



they'll think ur into milfs or even worse..... GILFS.... hahaha :)

oh well hugging is fun though! and so is kissing. u cant live ur life scared of what other people think lol

I think you are wrong from a religious standpoint.

If the tradition and rule of Orthodox Jews is not to do those things, you dont' want to give antoher Orthodox Jew the impression that you are allowed to do it...

good thing im not an orthodox jew then :) and im glad im not one.. btw thanks for the spelling lesson dr dan ill make sure to go through the forum and find something you misspelled

hehehe nor am I :)
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline q_q_

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #227 on: June 27, 2008, 11:04:30 AM »

i generally try to avoid kissing total strangers when gretting them..especially women..and i'm not shomer negia..

But it's funny actually..just the other day i was walking the streets and some asian girl starts flirting with me in order for me to "give to the children" of Latin America...I was really uncomfortable by the way she was touching me in her friendly manner..it was really invasive.

And at work today, one of the secretaries friends came to the office and she was looking at me raping me with her eyes...it made me feel really uncomfortable to the point that i started showing everyone pics of my gf just to give her no hope and walk away.

That is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard a man say. You felt (in a negative way) like you were (helpless and) being raped by a woman!.. As punishment, you should be neutered.

the pics of your gf was good thinking though.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #228 on: June 27, 2008, 01:02:58 PM »

i generally try to avoid kissing total strangers when gretting them..especially women..and i'm not shomer negia..

But it's funny actually..just the other day i was walking the streets and some asian girl starts flirting with me in order for me to "give to the children" of Latin America...I was really uncomfortable by the way she was touching me in her friendly manner..it was really invasive.

And at work today, one of the secretaries friends came to the office and she was looking at me raping me with her eyes...it made me feel really uncomfortable to the point that i started showing everyone pics of my gf just to give her no hope and walk away.

That is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard a man say. You felt (in a negative way) like you were (helpless and) being raped by a woman!.. As punishment, you should be neutered.

the pics of your gf was good thinking though.

I was uncomfortable for the first time with a girl looking at me like the way she did..and she was pretty cute too...
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline muslimslayer0075995

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #229 on: July 09, 2008, 09:13:50 PM »
even religious scholars argue on the scriptual accuracies of some of the torahs' writings
islam isnt relgion its perpetuated hatred of the infidels

Offline q_q_

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #230 on: July 10, 2008, 03:57:25 AM »
even religious scholars argue on the scriptual accuracies of some of the torahs' writings

If you want to argue that judaism is false, as you are by writing what you just wrote, then go elsewhere.


Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #231 on: July 11, 2008, 02:11:45 PM »
it's unhygienic

the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people  in america have herpes

Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.

I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores.  EVen when dormant one can catch them.  She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.

She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE".  which was a bit embarassing.  Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton!  It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay..   Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!


It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.



well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.


But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.



they'll think ur into milfs or even worse..... GILFS.... hahaha :)

oh well hugging is fun though! and so is kissing. u cant live ur life scared of what other people think lol

I think you are wrong from a religious standpoint.

If the tradition and rule of Orthodox Jews is not to do those things, you dont' want to give antoher Orthodox Jew the impression that you are allowed to do it...

good thing im not an orthodox jew then :) and im glad im not one.. btw thanks for the spelling lesson dr dan ill make sure to go through the forum and find something you misspelled

  That is an ignorant thing to say. When one will face G-d in their trial, G-d is not going to say "ooh you are not Orthodox" so it is okay to do x, y, and z, but for the Orthodox Jew it is forbidden and if they do it they will be severly punished (purified), but for another Jew, or Jewess it is okay. Bottom line- All Jews are equally obligated and held responsible in not commiting the sins that G-d has written. If G-d wanted to give some Commandments to some Jews and not to others, He would have said soo (as is the case with Kohanim for example), but these things are Commanded for All and All (Jews) are held responsible, no matter if they call themselves "Orthodox" or "reform" Or even Athiest, still everyone is held responsible and these are just silly excuses.
  Soo what to do? Learn the proper things in life and do them, and also NOT do the improper things in life. What defines what is proper and not? - the Torah of G-d which is a Divine book. If anyone has any doubt if it is the word of G-d or not, then say soo (I can point out many very good video's showing that the Torah can only be Divine without ANY doubt).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline muslimslayer0075995

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #232 on: July 11, 2008, 04:54:20 PM »
q q ur last comment was uncalled for, i am a proud orthodox jew, the torah to me is a way of life, i would never second guess the ancient scriptures,  i was mearly making a point  :(
islam isnt relgion its perpetuated hatred of the infidels

Offline q_q_

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #233 on: July 13, 2008, 01:16:59 PM »
q q ur last comment was uncalled for, i am a proud orthodox jew, the torah to me is a way of life, i would never second guess the ancient scriptures,  i was mearly making a point  :(

You said "even religious scholars argue on the scriptual accuracies of some of the torahs' writings"

I am curious to know then, what was your point ?

Who are these scholars. What do they say.             ?

Indeed. If they don't believe in its accuracy, then what is the purpose of them writing if not to try to undermine torah judaism. An orthodox jew would not consider such people "religious". They are anti religious, I would say 100% are anti religious. They are unorthodox. An orthodox jew would not consider them religious scholars. Not of his bible religion, or of any bible based religion.

And since you claim to be an orthodox jew, what is your idea of a religious scholar that does not accept the torah's accuracy?

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #234 on: July 13, 2008, 11:20:46 PM »
q q ur last comment was uncalled for, i am a proud orthodox jew, the torah to me is a way of life, i would never second guess the ancient scriptures,  i was mearly making a point  :(

You said "even religious scholars argue on the scriptual accuracies of some of the torahs' writings"

I am curious to know then, what was your point ?

Who are these scholars. What do they say.             ?

Indeed. If they don't believe in its accuracy, then what is the purpose of them writing if not to try to undermine torah judaism. An orthodox jew would not consider such people "religious". They are anti religious, I would say 100% are anti religious. They are unorthodox. An orthodox jew would not consider them religious scholars. Not of his bible religion, or of any bible based religion.

And since you claim to be an orthodox jew, what is your idea of a religious scholar that does not accept the torah's accuracy?

i know you arent' addressing me here..but I will make a fundamental note:

The Torah is very accurate...However, a human being's interpretation of it is inaccurate.  Our great Sages, on the other hand were much more accurate than a non-Sage most of the time with their interpretations.


ok...continue...
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #235 on: July 14, 2008, 04:27:13 PM »
q q ur last comment was uncalled for, i am a proud orthodox jew, the torah to me is a way of life, i would never second guess the ancient scriptures,  i was mearly making a point  :(

You said "even religious scholars argue on the scriptual accuracies of some of the torahs' writings"

I am curious to know then, what was your point ?

Who are these scholars. What do they say.             ?

Indeed. If they don't believe in its accuracy, then what is the purpose of them writing if not to try to undermine torah judaism. An orthodox jew would not consider such people "religious". They are anti religious, I would say 100% are anti religious. They are unorthodox. An orthodox jew would not consider them religious scholars. Not of his bible religion, or of any bible based religion.

And since you claim to be an orthodox jew, what is your idea of a religious scholar that does not accept the torah's accuracy?

i know you arent' addressing me here..but I will make a fundamental note:

The Torah is very accurate...However, a human being's interpretation of it is inaccurate.  Our great Sages, on the other hand were much more accurate than a non-Sage most of the time with their interpretations.


ok...continue...

 Also its more then that. IT is kinda hard to explain fully, and it also depends on which sage says something, BUT at the very least when their was a Sanhedrin and it decided on one was of applying the law, even if their was a disagreement or another great Hacham said something else and had all the proof infront of him, and even if Heaven came to testify that he is correct, IF the other sages said something contrary it had/has to be followed. For example their is a story in the Gemorah where Rabbi Eliezer argues with the sages about a certain oven being allowed or not on Shabb-t. They said No, he said Yes. It came to the pont where he said let the walls of this ceiling go down if I am correct, and they were collapsing until another sage Rabbi Yoshua said stop, and it did. He even said let their be a voice from heaven saying that I am correct, and their was, BUT Rabbi Yoshua said back that with all die respect the law is not decided in Heaven, G-d gave the laws, and He has written in the Torah to listin to the sages and follow them (which is a commandment also), and when they make a ruling the nation is then obligated to follow them even if heaven itself testifies that the other opinion is correct. G-d then says that He is "defeated", but this type of defeat, is a defeat of rejoicing, as it says in Tehillim about G-d who is "defeated" and rejoices (It has a number of lessons on how G-d is so-called "defeated" which is not literal of-course  (One can either look at this as literal, or Aggadah which is symbolic, but either way the message is "Lo Bishimaim.." ) The Torah is not in heaven, but here and is to be decided here. BUTTT that does NOT mean that in todays generation their will be and are "Rabbis" that we would have to follow their majority, it is the majority of the Real Hachamim, (and the best scenario is the Sanhedrin).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline muslimslayer0075995

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #236 on: July 14, 2008, 08:49:27 PM »
ok i believe that this website is supposed to be a safe zone for jews, i believe i am intitled to an opionon, so my view is that some things that are in the torah are basicaly a moral law of older times, i mean the torah will be the law of jews forever but as humanity evolves arent the customs, and the ways society and even or khanist society sometimes will defy meagure (will have to check spelling) and perhaps very very small or insignificant beliefs of the torah. i believe that pre maritial sex  is completly against what the torah stands for, but i mean if you and ur significant other wish to um.... show signs of affection  to one another (in that way) i believe that those two are entitled to do so, so long as it is a private matter. does anyone else know what i mean ?
islam isnt relgion its perpetuated hatred of the infidels

Offline muslimslayer0075995

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #237 on: July 14, 2008, 09:15:06 PM »
qq, dr dan is completly intitled to his feelings, its not pathetic.
islam isnt relgion its perpetuated hatred of the infidels

Offline Karen

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #238 on: July 15, 2008, 08:00:23 PM »
Who would want to marry someone without knowing if they have chemistry or not? It IS important, as is love.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #239 on: July 15, 2008, 11:51:43 PM »
qq, dr dan is completly intitled to his feelings, its not pathetic.

For a man especially,
All feelings are pathetic, look to Mr Spock for guidance.

Not Leonard Nemoy, but Mr Spock.

You can settle for Tuvok, he is also a good example.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 11:53:35 PM by q_q_ »

Offline q_q_

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #240 on: July 16, 2008, 12:09:18 AM »
Actually, that is a dangerous statement I made there..  about vulcan mentality being ideal.

If you ever see Gordan Ramsey's kitchen nightmares. It's a program where "Chef Gordan" fixes up failing restaurants.  Or rather, fixes the owner and chef, of failing restaurants

You notice in all these cases, the chef there lacks passion.. (and lacks obsession with being a chef). He is totally *ambivalent*, lacking in feeling. And that totally demotivates him.

Gordan either sacks the chef.. or, manages to make the chef passionate again. Bringing back the passion.

And furthermore, even if one wants to be like Spock, the fact is that judaism requires that one be happy and sad.. Happy at simchas-joyous occassions(weddings e.t.c.  ), and sad at prescribed times, like tisha b'av (mourning the destruction of the temple).

   
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 12:11:30 AM by q_q_ »

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #241 on: July 16, 2008, 02:27:10 PM »
ok i believe that this website is supposed to be a safe zone for jews, i believe i am intitled to an opionon, so my view is that some things that are in the torah are basicaly a moral law of older times, i mean the torah will be the law of jews forever but as humanity evolves arent the customs, and the ways society and even or khanist society sometimes will defy meagure (will have to check spelling) and perhaps very very small or insignificant beliefs of the torah. i believe that pre maritial sex  is completly against what the torah stands for, but i mean if you and ur significant other wish to um.... show signs of affection  to one another (in that way) i believe that those two are entitled to do so, so long as it is a private matter. does anyone else know what i mean ?


I know what you mean...once again...it's between the couple.. THe couple should be aware that they ought to wait before marraige...and even try to do that...
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #242 on: July 16, 2008, 02:28:27 PM »
Who would want to marry someone without knowing if they have chemistry or not? It IS important, as is love.

If you mean sexual chemistry..like to have sex to see if there is chemistry...i think you are very wrong...

if you mean intellectual chemistry, then of course you're correct.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline muslimslayer0075995

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #243 on: July 16, 2008, 02:49:05 PM »
dr dan i mean it really is up to the couple, yes they should wait but they have the option not to. i think love really should be optional in the way people express themselves, so long as it is moral
islam isnt relgion its perpetuated hatred of the infidels

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #244 on: July 16, 2008, 03:48:06 PM »
dr dan i mean it really is up to the couple, yes they should wait but they have the option not to. i think love really should be optional in the way people express themselves, so long as it is moral

the thing is, premarital sex is technically immoral..

just like a jew eating pork is immoral..he still has a choice to eat it...

it's not for me to judge what an umarried couple did if they got married..however, the right way is not to do it...there are exceptions i'm sure..but still, if those exceptions are not needed, the right way is to wait.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #245 on: July 16, 2008, 06:49:39 PM »
dr dan i mean it really is up to the couple, yes they should wait but they have the option not to. i think love really should be optional in the way people express themselves, so long as it is moral

it's not for me to judge what an umarried couple did if they got married..however, the right way is not to do it...there are exceptions i'm sure..but still, if those exceptions are not needed, the right way is to wait.

 Just for the record according to Halacha it is only wrong for Jews. It is not a problem for a non-Jew to go to a club and pick up some chick and do as they please, but for a Jew it is a serious crime (very serious, where the penalty could be spiritual excommunication and premature death, G-d forbid).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline muslimslayer0075995

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #246 on: July 16, 2008, 07:28:45 PM »
um as i mentioned before that rule about early death. it al has to do with what society and what time period it is in (lol thats why jews dont get aids)
islam isnt relgion its perpetuated hatred of the infidels

Offline Scriabin

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #247 on: July 17, 2008, 12:17:17 AM »
Yes, it should be banned.

Can we PLEASE end this awful topic.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #248 on: July 17, 2008, 12:39:33 AM »
dr dan i mean it really is up to the couple, yes they should wait but they have the option not to. i think love really should be optional in the way people express themselves, so long as it is moral

it's not for me to judge what an umarried couple did if they got married..however, the right way is not to do it...there are exceptions i'm sure..but still, if those exceptions are not needed, the right way is to wait.

 Just for the record according to Halacha it is only wrong for Jews. It is not a problem for a non-Jew to go to a club and pick up some chick and do as they please, but for a Jew it is a serious crime (very serious, where the penalty could be spiritual excommunication and premature death, G-d forbid).

I highly doubt it, Tzvi...these are scare tactics which work for people like you.  I don't subscribe to this, "you'll die and go to hell if you do this and if you do that!"  We follow a religion that believes in a merciful god.  We have days like Yom Kippur to ask for another chance at life each year. We read in the chumash everyday for Gd to forgive us and pardon us in the Amidah.  So, I highly doubt the things you say about these penalties.

However, I will agree that it is better to wait till one gets married than to do it before.  I would want that for my children and for those who I love dearly..Jew or righteous gentile.  There is a higher spiritual uplifting between a couple that waits versus those that don't.  But to not do it because one might go to hell or be excommunicated are for those people who don't really understand the wold from experience...that's just my opinion...
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #249 on: July 17, 2008, 12:40:29 AM »
Yes, it should be banned.

Can we PLEASE end this awful topic.

nope...but if you don't like it, you can post on a different thread.  At least it is in the dating section and not the general discussion section.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein