Which political party should we support in Israel?

[Fortis]

Israel has a plethora of right-wing political parties, but which one is the one to support?

[Zelhar]

The only right wing party with a chance to get in the Knesset is "HaIchud Haleumi (=The national union)". The Likud is NOT a real nationalist party, It had ceded  more territory to the Arabs then the left. Avigdor Liberman's party (Israel beitenu) is also phony nationalist. They offer to cede almost the entire Judea and Samaria and keep only a few urban areas in exchange for Arab populated area in Israel.

[Fortis]

I am pleased to have found the right place, but their websites are mostly in Hebrew, which I am unable to fathom.

Do HaIchud Haleumi also have a secular philosophy or are they purely religious nationalists?

What are the interactions between secular and religious nationalists in Israel?

[Zelhar]

I am pleased to have found the right place, but their websites are mostly in Hebrew, which I am unable to fathom.

Do HaIchud Haleumi also have a secular philosophy or are they purely religious nationalists?

What are the interactions between secular and religious nationalists in Israel?

It has both seculars and religious voters and leaders (Knesset member Israel Eldad is #2 candidate for the coming elections). Most voters are religious but the party is not as religiously oriented as the Mafdal (national religious party). I don't know if you are aware to the various types of religious Jews, because the Jews in that party are not like the Charedi (black hats) Jews, they are modern people adapted to modernity so they are not imposing as the Charedis can be sometime.

Without a doubt the religious nationalists are both more numerous and more active. So any activity or serious organization involves religious folk and seculars who are welcomed to work with them.

We used to have secular nationalist parties and organizations- The revisionists and all the organizations that it had begot- like Beitar, and the Herut party. But all this has soured because the secular revisionist failed to educate the next generation with proper values. And the result is that their children are vain morally corrupt morons who pretend to be  'good christians' and self righteous like Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert. Any nationalist secular person in Israel has become so despite the anti-nationalistic education he had received.

[Fortis]

Thank you. There must always be a spiritual foundation for nationalism.

What about these guys?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Zionism

http://www.mrtolerance.com/

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/

I will come back and maybe start some threads on this topic.

Regards,

Fortis.

[Zelhar]

"Muslim Zionism" is an oxymoron, it is a complete heresy in Islam to acknowledge the right of any non Muslim people to their nation. Dr. Tawfik Hamid is therefore not really a muslim.

Arab for Israel is another lost cause, again because of Islam.

All this people are either atheists or christians and they cannot set their foot in an Arab country.

[Fortis]

Do the HaIchud Haleumi employ secular reasoning to promote the cause?

I am asking because the most successful format in Britain has been to use secular arguments for nationalism, rather than the Christian theological argument that the creator created nations, which, of course, is just as valid to some people.

There are actually a number of different perspectives, including the indigenous pagan perspective, Christian nationalism and even people who are not British who just happen to agree that Islam and immigration have gone to far and who agree with our economic programme.

Do non-Jews and well as non-religious Jews vote for HaIchud Haleumi?

What is the economic programme of HaIchud Haleumi?

[Zelhar]

HaIchud Haleumi has very recently undergone a major change- it has merged with some other parties including the kahanist 'Chazit Yehudit Leumit'. They have a new chairman and a new list of candidates so I am not sure exactly what they are going to be like in the future.

Do the HaIchud Haleumi employ secular reasoning to promote the cause?

Yes, but of course not exclusively.

Do non-Jews and well as non-religious Jews vote for HaIchud Haleumi?

Yes and one of their leaders, Aryeh Eldad, is secular. Surely most of their voters are going to be from national-religious folk.

What is the economic programme of HaIchud Haleumi?

I'm not sure because of the various elements composing it. I suppose they would favor some right-wing economic like privatization, but they also support government support to big families and to weak elements of society. Anyway they are only going to sit in Netanyahu's cabinet if any, and they are not going to beak off from the cabinet over the economic policies of Netanyahu (who is a right winger when it comes to the economy).   

[Debbie Shafer]

Does anyone think B.B. Netanyahu is a good choice?  He seems to have the knowledge and backbone to do what is necessary.

[Zelhar]

Does anyone think B.B. Netanyahu is a good choice?  He seems to have the knowledge and backbone to do what is necessary.

If you mean being subservient to BHO, he is the man.

[q_q_]

Thank you. There must always be a spiritual foundation for nationalism.

What about these guys?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Zionism

http://www.mrtolerance.com/

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/

I will come back and maybe start some threads on this topic.

Regards,

Fortis.

That aya in sura 5 of the quran is a big problem for them.. (one should know their terms if you want a serious discussion with one..)

they try desperately to avoid that verse.. claiming ignorance of it or being unsure about it .. or just giving wild replies that they cannot possibly believe. And i'm sure the tafsir(Traditional islammic commentary) shows their interpretation is completely wrong islammically

in the Torah Israel is a name of a person(Israel-Jacob) , the nation and the land.

in the quran, it's just basic.. Israel is Jacob, and the nation-children/descendents of israel. But it is not used to refer to the land..

I once heard one of them say.. that when Moses tells Israel to go to the promised land.. That it must be talking about somewhere other than the land of israel, becuse there's no way he wants jews there!!!! They really run circles to deal with that verse.
Another said , well, you can't steal others land.
Fact is, their book says (copying bible prophecy), that in the end of days G-d will gather them to gether in a mingled crowd.  They themselves can see israel is a mingled crowd.. It really is an issue.. But they don't think about it.

Another thing though is that in Islam, once land has a muslim ruler, it's muslim land. So to them it's muslim land. They have to rule it.
It was part of the Ottoman Empire - not arab - turkish. But muslim.  It was part of one large mass.. A borderless islammic state.. Muslims will tell you they don't believe in borders(for them it's an artificial man made pointless thing and the whole world should just be one unified islammic state!).

What is important is not theologically what is TRUE islam.. (islam is not true itself). What is important is -the reality of islam-.
This is important, in not getting hung up on arguing whether or not islam is a religion of peace.  And in our society sometimes to make a point it's better to say islamism to make a point, thus avoiding that discussion which is really for muslims to argue amongst themselves.

The strong argument though that islam is not a religion of peace, is simply mohammed.. he faught wars.. most people would not consider the Islam of the 600sCE, to be peaceful! Yet in islam, mohammed is the perfect muslim.

Also, there are these 2 interesting verses, the second one is particularly interesting.


in a debate between sam shamoun and nadir ahmed..
(it's on video.. not that advanced , nadir ahmed was hilarious, p;ointing saying he'll get him and telling sam not to run away. )

here are shamoun's notes.
And this was the crux of the debate.. and ahmed had no answer.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/na_debate.htm
"
– The Quran says to seek peace if the enemy wants peace:

And if they incline to peace, do thou incline to it; and put thy trust in G-d; He is the All-hearing, the All-knowing. S. 8:61

Fact – This passage is contradicted by the following reference:

So be not weak and ask not for peace (from the enemies of Islam), while you are having the upper hand. Allah is with you, and will never decrease the reward of your good deeds. S. 47:35

The contradiction led some Muslims to assume that Q. 8:61 has been abrogated whereas other scholars believed that it is be implemented only when the Muslims do not have the upper hand:
"

NOTE: Sam shamoun, the one representing christianity, is a big anti-semite.. I heard him some years ago in a chat.. I don't know if he has an arabic background..  He's also somewhat of a thug himself .. though this doesn't invalidate the arguments he used.

The main argument to Ahmed was..

this verse (let people decide if this is a religion of peace)


"So be not weak and ask not for peace (from the enemies of Islam), while you are having the upper hand. Allah is with you, and will never decrease the reward of your good deeds. S. 47:35 "

It also explains why you have moderate muslims.. Why muslims are always saying it's a religion of peace.. They say it because they want islam to take hold.

It may well be that once it takes hold, (and they make the non muslims dhimmi) they will still say it's a religion of peace.

But as Nick Griffin said - I saw him talking about islam on youtube - .. Dhimmi status is a religious and cultural apartheid incompatible with western values.   He gave some exampels of how dhimmis are treated.. That word apartheid is important.  They know how powerful it is because they have the cheek to accuse israel - that lets arabs vote and has arab members of parliament! of being an apartheid state!

[Muck DeFuslims]

HaIchud Haleumi has very recently undergone a major change- it has merged with some other parties including the kahanist 'Chazit Yehudit Leumit'. They have a new chairman and a new list of candidates so I am not sure exactly what they are going to be like in the future.

Do the HaIchud Haleumi employ secular reasoning to promote the cause?

Yes, but of course not exclusively.

Do non-Jews and well as non-religious Jews vote for HaIchud Haleumi?

Yes and one of their leaders, Aryeh Eldad, is secular. Surely most of their voters are going to be from national-religious folk.

What is the economic programme of HaIchud Haleumi?

I'm not sure because of the various elements composing it. I suppose they would favor some right-wing economic like privatization, but they also support government support to big families and to weak elements of society. Anyway they are only going to sit in Netanyahu's cabinet if any, and they are not going to beak off from the cabinet over the economic policies of Netanyahu (who is a right winger when it comes to the economy).   

I agree that the National Union is the party most worthy of our support.

The NU appears to be the party most adamantly opposed to any land give-aways. For me, this is the most important consideration.

The polls indicate that the NU is likely to obtain 3 seats in the Knesset. I hope they earn at least that. I was certain that Chazit would win a few seats in the last election and was very disappointed when they failed to do so.

As far as the NU being part of an Netanyahu/Likud led coaltion, I don't think it will happen.

I expect the Likud to form a coaliton with larger parties like Kadima and Labor. However, it would be great if the NU was part of a coaliton with the ability to bring down the government, should Netanyahu be pressured into suicidal concessions.

It's quite apparent that Netanyahu will not be able to stand up to the pressure exerted by the mulatto messiah currently occupying the White House. The demands for Israeli concessions and appeasements are going to be very intense.

Now, more than ever, Israel and the free world needs strong, principled leadership. In my opinion, the NU is the best choice to provide that.

[Zelhar]

I agree with your prediction. Netanyahu has two strategic partners: Shas, and Israel Beitenu. Any coalition he forms includes them. He would like to add Kadima or Labor to his coalition and of course Yahdut Hatorah and Mafdal. He would do anything not to rely upon the Ichud Leumi. Lucky for him there is Lieberman who basically steels 60-80% of the right wing voters.

[ProudAndZionist]

Gavriel my friend (he is JTF member too) said that there is a new party, called Hatikva. Some informations about them?

[Zelhar]

Gavriel my friend (he is JTF member too) said that there is a new party, called Hatikva. Some informations about them?

Hatikva is part of the 'national union' (האיחוד הלאומי). Israel Eldad (Hatikva's leader) is 3rd in the NU list.