Poll

What would you encourage and practice?

Jewish men and women should stay virgins
15 (16.1%)
Only Jewish women should stay virgins; Jewish men optional
6 (6.5%)
All men and women should stay virgins until marraige
36 (38.7%)
Only women should wait; men optional
2 (2.2%)
Optional for all; men and women
22 (23.7%)
For some yes; for some it would be worse to be a virgin until marraige since he/she might be a better spouse if they get it out of their system before hand
3 (3.2%)
I believe in complete celibacy
0 (0%)
I think everyone should practice premarital sex
9 (9.7%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??  (Read 143359 times)

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Offline DownwithIslam

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2008, 02:41:07 AM »
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.


It should be discussed before the wedding. I would never marry a woman unless I first knew she was a virgin.



Yacov, if you met a woman who was perfect for you and you trully had feeliing for her, would you end the relationship if you found out she was not a virgin. She will not remain a virgin if she marries anyhow so I dont think a relationship should be based upon this.
I am urinating on a Koran.

Offline DownwithIslam

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2008, 02:46:33 AM »
But the fundamental question is if it is worth not befriending someone who would be perfect for you just because they have engaged in relations already.
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Offline Mishmaat

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2008, 02:54:03 AM »

Yacov, if you met a woman who was perfect for you and you trully had feeliing for her, would you end the relationship if you found out she was not a virgin. She will not remain a virgin if she marries anyhow so I dont think a relationship should be based upon this.

I'm not as discriminating as Yacov. I'm willing to marry a non-virgin.

Offline Gruzinit

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2008, 03:53:51 AM »
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.

When my mother was 16-years-old, she was forced into an arranged marriage. The marraige was horrid from the start, and within a year my mother got a divorce.

After her divorce, some me in the local village thought that just because she was a divorcee, it meant she was a whore. When men did approach her, they made it obvious that they solely wanted sex, and had no intention of courting her or considering her for marriage, they wanted a young virgine bride for that. To say she was devastated would be an understatement, it angers me beyond belief remembering the pain in my mother's voice as she told how men thought she was worthless, when she has more dignity and grace than all of them combined.

My mother suffered and was subjected to cruelty for what, a membrane of skin? I'm not saying people should have sex with numerous partners, I truly believ in abstinence, but if a man could not love me because over something as petty as that, then i doubt he is much of a man at all.
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Offline Nic Brookes

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2008, 05:40:56 AM »
But the fundamental question is if it is worth not befriending someone who would be perfect for you just because they have engaged in relations already.


Yes, it is worth it. I would not get close with a woman without knowing she's a virgin first. That's why I shouldn't kiss her before marriage, so I won't form any emotional bonds and then have to dump her after finding out she's not a virgin.

Once you kiss someone, it is devastating if you break up. You become too attached to them. Physical contact with a woman you love should be reserved for marriage only.



What, then, if you find yourself in the situation being described earlier?

If you are told your girlfriend is a virgin but after your wedding night you discover her not to be, what would you do?

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2008, 07:18:50 AM »
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


Well, with viriginity, I'm not referring to the broken hymen..I'm referring to the psychological aspect of it of "never laying with a man"...or a man never laying with a woman.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2008, 07:22:39 AM »
Obviously I'm against premarital sex for both moral reasons and for practical reasons. There was a study reported on CNN that indicated that one in four teenage girls have an STD. That is the fruit of a depraved society that encourages "feel good" wanton amoral behavior. The fleeting pleasure you derive from that selfish act of gratifying the flesh just isn't worth it. Are you truly going to be satisfied? Will that lead to promiscuity? Abstinence requires discipline, but many things in life require discipline. I'd rather be a virgin and wait until marriage rather than screw some chick who I'm going to forget in a couple of years.

From our Torah (the ultimate guide for living):

"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, and lay wanton charges against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say: 'I took this woman, and when I came nigh to her, I found not in her the tokens of virginity'; then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate. And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders: 'I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; and, lo, he hath laid wanton charges, saying: I found not in thy daughter the tokens of virginity; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him. And they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel; and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel; then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die; because she hath wrought a wanton deed in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house; so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee" (Devarim/Deuteronomy 22:13-21).

In other words two things:

If she lies about being a virgin, and IT BOTHERS THE HUSBAND, he has the right to return her to her father's home.

It might also imply:

If she lies about being a virgin, but it DOESN'T bother the husband, then he has an option of returning her to her father's home.

Remember, this Torah passage has only to do with the husband being disastisfied and not loving his wife.  Not if he loves her.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline nessuno

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2008, 09:58:07 AM »
I will try to prepare my child for the world in which she lives.
Arm her with knowledge.  A must in this anything goes world.  :D
Yet - I will encourage my child to wait until marriage.
She will not get a green light from me  ;) on pre marital sex.
A lot of parents I know have accepted it as part of, children, growing up... :D
I think it is more important then that.  Maturity and love(maybe marriage) should have something to do with it.  Dr. Dan is right.

I'm not sure that she will heed my advice...but that's what it will be.
It seems to me the most moral path to follow...one that could prevent unwanted pregnancy, illness and regrets.

I have a nephew.  :-[
He is 18 years old.
He just had a baby.  God Bless her.
He has no job.
He does have fancy clothes, a fancy cell phone and an attitude of entitlement.
Great Father material.  He wants to know what he's getting for Father's Day.  I say a 'beating' might be a step in the right direction. Just kidding.

I think parents better start stepping up to the plate as parents.
We have created a generation of children with no moral compass...and we all are paying the price.
SEX is not to be taken lightly.  Think before you act!  ::)




Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline nessuno

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2008, 10:07:22 AM »
...and Yacov - I admire you.  Religious and moral beliefs are important.  You should be respected for holding true to them.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline Dan

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2008, 10:24:37 AM »
I will try to prepare my child for the world in which she lives.
Arm her with knowledge.  A must in this anything goes world.  :D
Yet - I will encourage my child to wait until marriage.
She will not get a green light from me  ;) on pre marital sex.
A lot of parents I know have accepted it as part of, children, growing up... :D
I think it is more important then that.  Maturity and love(maybe marriage) should have something to do with it.  Dr. Dan is right.

I'm not sure that she will heed my advice...but that's what it will be.
It seems to me the most moral path to follow...one that could prevent unwanted pregnancy, illness and regrets.

I have a nephew.  :-[
He is 18 years old.
He just had a baby.  G-d Bless her.
He has no job.
He does have fancy clothes, a fancy cell phone and an attitude of entitlement.
Great Father material.  He wants to know what he's getting for Father's Day.  I say a 'beating' might be a step in the right direction. Just kidding.

I think parents better start stepping up to the plate as parents.
We have created a generation of children with no moral compass...and we all are paying the price.
SEX is not to be taken lightly.  Think before you act!  ::)





  Great post Bullcat!
 I said it before  so I'll say it again...
  'the people that shouldn't be having children ARE and the people that should ARE NOT' that mainly stems form the lack of morality and spiritual guidance. We're in Big trouble if we expect the Next Generation to be the great pioneers that the US once had.
 

Offline nessuno

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2008, 11:00:41 AM »
You are so right Dan!
We do seem to be in big trouble.
We are unprepared to make sacrifices - even for the sake of morality and religious beliefs.
The anything goes/feel good attitude is killing us.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2008, 11:04:11 AM »
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.

I don't see what the big deal is over that being intact anyway since it's going to be broken the first night if she does have it intact.  :::D What about the decades following?

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2008, 11:05:20 AM »
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.


It should be discussed before the wedding. I would never marry a woman unless I first knew she was a virgin.



What if she WAS a virgin, but didn't have an intact hymen because she was born without one, or it broke in a nonsexual way? Would you accuse her of lying to you and divorce her and not believe her?

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Pre-Marital sex
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2008, 11:18:33 AM »
Yacov, I think that is something which would take place in a Utopian world. I went to a modern orthodox yeshiva in the five towns for high school and I can tell you that you would be very disappointed at what people did there, to say the least. I don't think any of the girls there would of been acceptable for you by the time they graduated.
DownwithIslam, G-d expects more from you than the hypocrites. Just because they are frauds doesn't mean that we can't save ourselves for marriage. The Bible commands it for Jews and Gentiles.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Pre-Marital sex
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2008, 11:20:29 AM »
well there are some nuts out there who beleive in it and make the act of sex an unwanted sin. It obviously isn't
Yeah, like the Shaker cult (dying out now, for obvious reasons).

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Pre-Marital sex
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2008, 11:22:36 AM »
You went to Yeshiva, never would have guessed.
This is pure and simple trolling and was completely uncalled for. You owe DownwithIslam an apology right now.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2008, 11:31:24 AM »
I think that in an idealistic society, sex should NOT be done before marraige.  Our society is so screwed up-Jewish and non Jewish.  Being that it is that way and that most of us live in these societies, pre marital sex should be discouraged.  However, speaking for men, sometimes, they need to get it out of their system in order to be a better husband...Or if possible, marry younger.  Except our society doesn't allow the latter.

The problem here is that there way too much focus on sex and less focus on love.  To many, it is SUCH A SIN to have pre-marital sex that it some will push their children to get married younger so that they dont' live or think in sin.  However, it's NOT JUST about sex!!!  It's unfortunate our society has become too sexified.  It's either something awesome or great or a terrible sin.  It's niether. It's a natural thing that is awesome and definately not a sin.  But sex shouldn't just be sex...that's just for animals to do.  We are humans with souls who understand and can learn love...and that's what it's about. If we can love a single person of the opposite sex and marry them, the sex makes sense...all the rest is really a waste of time and brain and soul.

But here's the clincher: How would I know this if I were still a virgin?  How could I understand this if I stayed a virgin?  In other words, sometimes, some people need to wander the desert for 40 years to appreciate the promised land, rather than go direct straight through.  Sometimes eating from the Tree of Knowledge will enhance our brains to do right and know wrong...Things like that can create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.\

I shoudl add however, that the frustration of not doing it before marraige can also create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.
Dr. Dan, the problem with all of the above is that this is all how the world wants us to think. There is no reason why people need to sexually experiment in order to know themselves better, or prepare themselves for marriage. That is a cultural lie that comes straight from Satan. I guarantee you--check the divorce rate for people who were sexually involved prior to marriage and those who saved themselves.

It's really not too difficult for two virgins to be sexually aware and conscious while remaining pure. Two virgins can have frank and open discussions about the birds and the bees and gauge each other's needs/likes/dislikes long before marriage and use this to determine whether or not they are right for each other. All it takes is a willingness to share and make ourselves vulnerable before someone we are interested in.

It is so much harder to remain pure in this day and age than at any time before because our culture is so flooded and saturated with sex--billboards for strip clubs, everything on TV, everything in the movies, etc. It's difficult to completely abstain from the pop culture--or is it? You would be surprised at how much crap we willingly give access to. Maybe the answer to self-control is as easy as turning off the lame sitcoms.

Finally, Dan, I actually do think early marriage is an answer--heck, I wanted to marry at fifteen if you can get my drift.  ;) Unfortunately, teens in our society cannot support themselves, and are not socially trained to have that kind of maturity at that age (whereas in most of human history, people have been heading households at fourteen or so). They certainly are capable of that kind of responsibility, but nobody cares to teach it to them. So, it's just an intriguing theory at this point (though I think probably a very effective one).  :(

Chaimfan

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2008, 11:32:31 AM »
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN
I would prefer a virgin, but will not rule out someone who isn't, and has repented, and is saving herself from this point forward.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2008, 11:34:40 AM »
She basically had sex before, and told him after the wedding. Next morning he returned her back to her father.
Well, I think what he did was shallow, but he was deceived. She should have been honest with him about that. Personally I point-blank ask women in whom I have interest about their sexual history. Chaimfan never has a problem being blunt or demanding bluntness from others.  ;)

Offline q_q_

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Re: Pre-Marital sex
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2008, 11:37:43 AM »
You went to Yeshiva, never would have guessed.
This is pure and simple trolling and was completely uncalled for. You owe DownwithIslam an apology right now.

It wasn't polite, but there is a history.. You(CF) , DWI,  against satmar, and Tzvi.   A moderator locked that thread, so it never got finished..   You are not an unbias charachter

DWI has not made many Torah posts, and he has made many posts. So it really is not guessable that he went to yeshiva.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2008, 11:38:56 AM »
I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.
I could accept a non-virgin who is honest about it and has repented, but I could not take being lied to. Now, my vows are my vows, so I wouldn't divorce over it, but I would be pissed.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2008, 11:42:38 AM »
This is a split topic with me. I am not innocent, but I do believe that a person should wait until marriage. I have much more respect for a person that remains a virgin until then.
You know that it is never too late with G-d. You can save yourself from this point forward.

Offline nessuno

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2008, 11:44:28 AM »
I think that in an idealistic society, sex should NOT be done before marraige.  Our society is so screwed up-Jewish and non Jewish.  Being that it is that way and that most of us live in these societies, pre marital sex should be discouraged.  However, speaking for men, sometimes, they need to get it out of their system in order to be a better husband...Or if possible, marry younger.  Except our society doesn't allow the latter.

The problem here is that there way too much focus on sex and less focus on love.  To many, it is SUCH A SIN to have pre-marital sex that it some will push their children to get married younger so that they dont' live or think in sin.  However, it's NOT JUST about sex!!!  It's unfortunate our society has become too sexified.  It's either something awesome or great or a terrible sin.  It's niether. It's a natural thing that is awesome and definately not a sin.  But sex shouldn't just be sex...that's just for animals to do.  We are humans with souls who understand and can learn love...and that's what it's about. If we can love a single person of the opposite sex and marry them, the sex makes sense...all the rest is really a waste of time and brain and soul.

But here's the clincher: How would I know this if I were still a virgin?  How could I understand this if I stayed a virgin?  In other words, sometimes, some people need to wander the desert for 40 years to appreciate the promised land, rather than go direct straight through.  Sometimes eating from the Tree of Knowledge will enhance our brains to do right and know wrong...Things like that can create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.\

I shoudl add however, that the frustration of not doing it before marraige can also create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.
Dr. Dan, the problem with all of the above is that this is all how the world wants us to think. There is no reason why people need to sexually experiment in order to know themselves better, or prepare themselves for marriage. That is a cultural lie that comes straight from Satan. I guarantee you--check the divorce rate for people who were sexually involved prior to marriage and those who saved themselves.

It's really not too difficult for two virgins to be sexually aware and conscious while remaining pure. Two virgins can have frank and open discussions about the birds and the bees and gauge each other's needs/likes/dislikes long before marriage and use this to determine whether or not they are right for each other. All it takes is a willingness to share and make ourselves vulnerable before someone we are interested in.

It is so much harder to remain pure in this day and age than at any time before because our culture is so flooded and saturated with sex--billboards for strip clubs, everything on TV, everything in the movies, etc. It's difficult to completely abstain from the pop culture--or is it? You would be surprised at how much crap we willingly give access to. Maybe the answer to self-control is as easy as turning off the lame sitcoms.

Finally, Dan, I actually do think early marriage is an answer--heck, I wanted to marry at fifteen if you can get my drift.  ;) Unfortunately, teens in our society cannot support themselves, and are not socially trained to have that kind of maturity at that age (whereas in most of human history, people have been heading households at fourteen or so). They certainly are capable of that kind of responsibility, but nobody cares to teach it to them. So, it's just an intriguing theory at this point (though I think probably a very effective one).  :(

Chaimfan
Very interesting C.F..
Great Post!
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2008, 11:45:03 AM »
This is a split topic with me. I am not innocent, but I do believe that a person should wait until marriage. I have much more respect for a person that remains a virgin until then.
You know that it is never too late with G-d. You can save yourself from this point forward.

I've heard of people who have had sex deciding to have a second virginity where they decide from this point forward to save themselves for marriage. It's not really being a virgin again, but it is making a commitment to a moral way of life and doing the right thing in God's eyes.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2008, 11:48:11 AM »
I have a nephew.  :-[
He is 18 years old.
He just had a baby.  G-d Bless her.
He has no job.
He does have fancy clothes, a fancy cell phone and an attitude of entitlement.
Great Father material.  He wants to know what he's getting for Father's Day.  I say a 'beating' might be a step in the right direction. Just kidding.

I think parents better start stepping up to the plate as parents.
We have created a generation of children with no moral compass...and we all are paying the price.
SEX is not to be taken lightly.  Think before you act!  ::)
::) Eesh. Yuck. Egads. $1 solution, anyone? (J/K, Bullcat.)  ;)