Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??

[Gruzinit]

When my mother was 16-years-old, she was forced into an arranged marriage. The marriage was horrid from the start, and within a year my mother got a divorce.

After her divorce, some me in the local village thought that just because she was a divorcee, it meant she was a whore. When men did approach her, they made it obvious that they solely wanted sex, and had no intention of courting her or considering her for marriage, they wanted a young Virginie bride for that. To say she was devastated would be an understatement, it angers me beyond belief remembering the pain in my mother's voice as she told how men thought she was worthless, when she has more dignity and grace than all of them combined.

My mother suffered and was subjected to cruelty for what, a membrane of skin? I'm not saying people should have sex with numerous partners, I truly believe in abstinence, but if a man could not love me because over something as petty as that, then i doubt he is much of a man at all.

Gruzinit, truly this is a revolting and sickening anecdote. These people, who treated your mother like they did, are as far as I am concerned plain and simple rodefs--no better than the Muslims. They deserve to burn in hell forever if they do not truly repent of their ways. At the same time, overwhelmingly most virginity/promiscuity debates in the West do not fall within those extreme circumstances. Average people who have sex outside of marriage or who divorce do so entirely out of their own fickleness and flippancy, and they should be judged--if they do not repent and stop living that way.

But my mother's circumstance is not as extreme as you think C.F. I've seen many cases like this, where Georgian families did not want their children to get involved will certain women who were divorced, and/or had a child from a previous marriage. In most of these cases, the men were not virgins (or shall we say, had been around the block).

One family I know realized their son truly loved his girlfriend, who had a 5-year-old daughter form her previous marriage and acquiesced because she truly made their son happy. They have grown to love her and shortly after the couple wed, they welcomed a beautiful grandson

[DownwithIslam]

When my mother was 16-years-old, she was forced into an arranged marriage. The marriage was horrid from the start, and within a year my mother got a divorce.

After her divorce, some me in the local village thought that just because she was a divorcee, it meant she was a whore. When men did approach her, they made it obvious that they solely wanted sex, and had no intention of courting her or considering her for marriage, they wanted a young Virginie bride for that. To say she was devastated would be an understatement, it angers me beyond belief remembering the pain in my mother's voice as she told how men thought she was worthless, when she has more dignity and grace than all of them combined.

My mother suffered and was subjected to cruelty for what, a membrane of skin? I'm not saying people should have sex with numerous partners, I truly believe in abstinence, but if a man could not love me because over something as petty as that, then i doubt he is much of a man at all.

Gruzinit, truly this is a revolting and sickening anecdote. These people, who treated your mother like they did, are as far as I am concerned plain and simple rodefs--no better than the Muslims. They deserve to burn in hell forever if they do not truly repent of their ways. At the same time, overwhelmingly most virginity/promiscuity debates in the West do not fall within those extreme circumstances. Average people who have sex outside of marriage or who divorce do so entirely out of their own fickleness and flippancy, and they should be judged--if they do not repent and stop living that way.

But my mother's circumstance is not as extreme as you think C.F. I've seen many cases like this, where Georgian families did not want their children to get involved will certain women who were divorced, and/or had a child from a previous marriage. In most of these cases, the men were not virgins (or shall we say, had been around the block).

One family I know realized their son truly loved his girlfriend, who had a 5-year-old daughter form her previous marriage and acquiesced because she truly made their son happy. They have grown to love her and shortly after the couple wed, they welcomed a beautiful grandson

I think they are hypocrites if their sons weren't virgins themselves. I don't believe in a double standard. I only want to marry a virgin because I myself am a virgin. But if the men you mentioned didn't mind marrying a non-virgin or especially if they themselves weren't virgins, there's nothing wrong with it.

And there's nothing wrong with a non-virgin woman who is divorced. It's not like she slept around. I personally thought would only want to marry a virgin who was never married because I want a woman in my own situation.

Yacov that might prevent you from finding your soulmate as you are seriously narrowing down your list.

[DownwithIslam]

Yacov its impossible to know if a man is a virgin unless he has an std or something.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yacov that might prevent you from finding your soulmate as you are seriously narrowing down your list.

It's not narrowing it down THAT much, plus you can never be too picky

[DownwithIslam]

Yacov that might prevent you from finding your soulmate as you are seriously narrowing down your list.

It's not narrowing it down THAT much, plus you can never be too picky

Of course it is. Only in the most sincerely religious homes will he find this hehe.

[DownwithIslam]

I am honestly just trying to help yacov. Sometimes when a person is too picky, he misses the opportunity when it arises. It would be a shame if yacov turned away a woman that he otherwise liked just because she wasn't a virgin.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Gruzinit's mother was innocent because she has sex in marriage. Any woman who had sex in marriage and got divorced is innocent, no matter how young she was and what the circumstances of the marriage were.

Yacov, you are missing the point. Gruzinit shared something very awful and traumatic that happened in her mother's life. Yes, it is good for all people to abstain before marriage, but she was trying to raise a point--could you just agree with it for a second?

[DownwithIslam]

Yacov its impossible to know if a man is a virgin unless he has an std or something.

That's true but righteous women should ask men if they are virgin before getting engaged just like I would ask a woman before getting engaged.

would it bother them?

I dont believe it would. I don't think most women would care as long as the man is not some shvartza who has slept with 5000 shvartza "women."

[DownwithIslam]

Yacov its impossible to know if a man is a virgin unless he has an std or something.

That's true but righteous women should ask men if they are virgins before getting engaged just like I would ask a woman before getting engaged.

Would it bother them?

It would if they're normal.

I too am shaken up by gruzinits story. It is a shame that some people are crazy enough to destroy a persons life like that. What they did to gruzinits mother is a true sin that they CANNOT repent for. Lets say someone makes a mistake and sleeps around, hashem forgives if they repent. When you hurt another person, their is no way to repent unless the person himself forgives.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't think it is wrong to PREFER a virgin so long as you do not RULE OUT someone who made sexual mistakes in the past that they have now repented of--either sex.

On the other hand, I think that anyone who defends a past sexual experience in any way--even if it was just one--isn't fit to marry a Muslim Nazi.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yacov its impossible to know if a man is a virgin unless he has an std or something.

That's true but righteous women should ask men if they are virgin before getting engaged just like I would ask a woman before getting engaged.

would it bother them?

I dont believe it would. I don't think most women would care as long as the man is not some shvartza who has slept with 5000 shvartza "women."

As funny as that comment is, I think Yacov is looking for a woman whom that WOULD bother.  And for some it would.  He's looking for a sincere religious girl, I can't fault him for that.   If he was like a 40-something divorcee, G-d forbid, he maybe couldn't narrow down so much but he has a right to be picky if you ask me.   I will also look for the same myself.

[DownwithIslam]

Yacov, would you marry a woman who has repented over and over again for her sin? Let say a woman truly begs forgivenes from hashem for her previous immorality, would you consider that woman if she was otherwise good for you?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

If Yacov is truly a virgin, I don't blame him for desiring the same, but I wish we would all be open to people who have made mistakes and repented of them.

[DownwithIslam]

I don't think it is wrong to PREFER a virgin so long as you do not RULE OUT someone who made sexual mistakes in the past that they have now repented of--either sex.

On the other hand, I think that anyone who defends a past sexual experience in any way--even if it was just one--isn't fit to marry a Muslim Nazi.

Chaimfan, I think even a deformed cripled camel is too good for a muzzy. With those beasts, anything goes.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Well... there are some people who don't morally deserve anyone other than a Muslim Nazi. I'm sure you would agree with me that the dog Adam Shapiro is perfectly suited to that she-camel he wed.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Only if I was divorced and looking to get re-married.

Yacov, I fear that with an attitude that extreme that G-d might just withhold a wife from you.

You can ask G-d for a virgin--but if you refuse to forgive someone for something they truly and deeply regret and have changed from, why should G-d forgive you for any wrong thing you have done?

[Dr. Dan]

Better that if they are virgins at that time they are with someone who can hold back until the marraige is consumated.  And better if he is able to provide for a home for his family than be still in school living in a tiny dorm room.  In modern times, it's not easy to have all that all at once.
That's the only thing I disagree wtih with CF. 

Where do you disagree with me? I never denied that it is extremely difficult for the average student to be able to provide and establish a home. It sounds like we agree.

Somewhere in your post you entertained the fact that peopel shoudl be married younger.  I personally think it's not a good idea since we live in more modern times in the sense that more people now have access to a college education and post graduate education.  One shoudl not get married if he cannot afford to take care of a family.  One must build a home for himself, so to speak, before he can marry.

[Dr. Dan]

By the way, I think women should also refuse to marry men who are not virgins.

Are you trying to say that a non virgin's tishuva on Yom Kippur is moot?  That if a man had sex and realizes and is sorry for doing it to Gd, a virgin should refuse marrying him?! Even if he is relitively righteous otherwise?

And she shoudl choose a virgin man who might otherwise be evil over a more righteous non virgin? 

Come on now...that's not cool, Yaacov. You seem to have an alterior motive since you are a virgin and might have been less lucky in love versus non virgin men. I sense some resentment and jealousy..That's not good..that's very bad.

[Dr. Dan]

By the way, I think women should also refuse to marry men who are not virgins.

Are you trying to say that a non virgin's tishuva on Yom Kippur is moot?  That if a man had sex and realizes and is sorry for doing it to Gd, a virgin should refuse marrying him?! Even if he is relitively righteous otherwise?

And she shoudl choose a virgin man who might otherwise be evil over a more righteous non virgin? 

Come on now...that's not cool, Yaacov. You seem to have an alterior motive since you are a virgin and might have been less lucky in love versus non virgin men. I sense some resentment and jealousy..That's not good..that's very bad.

I would have French Kissed women but I never would have had sex with any. If I was lucky in love I would have just kissed, not have sex. I would have felt the desire to have sex but I would have had to control my urges. I'm not an animal.

If a woman doesn't mind that a man had sex, then it's her problem if she wants to marry him but I don't see why she would be okay with it. I'm just having no double standard because I think women should be as picky as I am when it comes to marrying a virgin.

You are entitled to that choice, but encouraging virgins to only marry virgins is a mistake. Just because someone might have had sex or didn't have sex doesn't mean they are a good person. Beleive me..I have known terrible evil crazy mean virgins..and some really sweet non virgins.

[JTFFan]

I think sex should be between in a man and a woman, love and a marriage. If the bride happens not to be a virgin, then she must repent and always love you, if not and if she cheats on you, then she never truly loved you in the first place.

[Dr. Dan]

I think sex should be between in a man and a woman, love and a marriage. If the bride happens not to be a virgin, then she must repent and always love you, if not and if she cheats on you, then she never truly loved you in the first place.

that woudl be true with a virgin as well who were to do the same thing...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Dont worry Yakov the way you think is the right way  Kol Hakavod, never settle for less then what is truly right to do. "narrowing your chances" etc. is not true at all, G-d will find you your Zivug, hopefully your Zivug gilgul as they say, and bless you with a good marriage. Anyway also dont get the picture that only the most religiouss of girls are virgins, and the rest all sleep around. Also many Baal Tishuva girls, have also been clean completly, because it is not only a religious thing. Their are many girls available, and you should obviously look in the right places- like through a Shadhan or a Rav who can find you someone rightious and on your level (obviously not clubs, bars and the other filthy places people go to, and then wonder if their are any virgins left- obviously not where they are searching).
 
 About marriage- the truth is that people should marry young, and G-d willing when my kids grow up, I will have them married at around 18.

[Scriabin]

Yawn.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Yawn.

  , if you dont like it change the channel.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

 

I never go to club, bars, and silly places like that. I don't even like those places and they just play loud trash music there.

Are Frumster and Orthodate good places to meet a woman? If I get a job in The Summer, I will money to spend so I will be able to afford to be a paid member there. I was only a paid member on Frumster once but the only girl that answered me didn't want to wait until I was done college and I still had a long way to go then. Now I will graduated in December and the only thing standing in the way is having enough money to get married but I will able to work full time since I'll be out of college.

[/quote]

  I know that, I also dont go, but I wouldn't say that if their was no Torah law agains't it that I wouldn't. I went a few times when I was verry young, and to tell you the truth at first I liked it, because I was the shiite because I knew how to dance and stuff. Also I loved the music (trance, club music) and was into that. It wasn't even to pick up a girl, but it was just the atmosphere- the music and friends that attracted me, as well as others. Then I just stopped going after talking to a Rabbi, and seeing the shiite that was going on their, where before I would go if a friend invited for their birthday, I just then said naa sorry its not the place for me.

  I do not know about Frumster and the other site, but I guess trying wont hurt. I personaly would not and will not go on them, because the girls on their are probably not for me (Im guessing they are mostly Askenazi) but if you see one that you like why not? Also if I were you I would definitly get myself realy trying by now, because you already need to be married, and you shouldn't wait to first completly finish college to then start dating and then find your match and then finaly get married at like 40 (G-d forbid). Go fishing now, and see what you will catch, also pray to Hashe-m and dont settle below your reasonable standards (dont make society think you are not "normal" or better yett doing the right thing in wanting simple things like a girl who respects her body, respecting G-d's laws of not having xxx before marriage, and respecting her future husband.) All the luck to you, may Hashe-m send you your Zivuk Gilgul and may she be a modest, rightious lady who keeps the laws properly.