Church With a Star

[q_q_]

"Church of G-d" is not a Messianic congregation.  There is a wide gap between Messianics and mainstream Christians.  In many cases we get along very well with Jewish organizations like JTF rather than with the Messianics.  The biggest problem we have with Messiancis is their attempt to develop "Messianic Halacha" which has no place in NT Christianity.  NT strongly supports zionism but does not agree with the concept of Oral law.  However many Messianics attempt to bridge Oral law and NT which is impossible.  Just as an FYI... Oral law in the time of Jesus was known as "the tradition of the elders". NT recongizes that there was something called "the tradition of the elders" but does not give Divine authority to it.  

My Church has a US flag and an Israeli flag on either side in the main santuary.  We are part of Pastor John Hagee's "Christians United for Israel" network.  We do not target Jews for conversion.  Even some Rabbis are very good friends with my Pastor.  Our Church strongly supports zionism and the restoration of Israel.

that's great..

here's a question .

walking into a mainstream church vs a messianic church.

just -looking-

what would be the differences.

I ask, since some people won't be able to delve into their theology or rituals, or if they do then they're finding out a bit late.

I have heard of some messianic churches having a tallit rack - a rack for jewish prayer garmants..

what other jewish symbols would they have?  some gentiles might not notice something like a tallit/tallus rack.

This is what a tallit looks like (and I think these are actually ignorant reform/conservative  jews each, including the old man - probably their "rabbi", is wearing treif-non kosher- tallit which is probably quite accurate in terms of what you'd see in a messianic synagogue.. that style of tallit)
http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/images/objects/tallit-men.jpg

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Well, there are many different kinds of Messianic churches, and they have very variable beliefs. It is not a single movement. Some of them are basically mainstream Christian churches with a Judaized appearance/focus, and some of them are an actual hybrid of Judaism and Christianity, as Christian Zionist mentioned. This latter variety is definitely heretical by all standards of Christendom.

[q_q_]

Good points by all. By the way, it should be pointed out that the early Christians (such as Paul) never actually condemned Judaism or told people they had to give their Jewishness up. This is a lie that was invented by anti-Semites hundreds of years later in the church. Paul (who never renounced his membership in the Pharisaical branch of Judaism) taught that keeping halacha is optional and not mandatory for salvation, not something wrongful that had to be stopped.

Paul himself said something along the lines of
To the jews I am as a jew so that I may win them over..
e.t.c.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became like a man under the law, in order to win those under the law (although I myself am not under the law).

sounds like he would renounce judaism to me, and adopt it when it suited him. And the brackets say that he had renounced it!
Not under the law means renouncing judaism. Or as you call it, pharaisic judaism.

[q_q_]

Well, there are many different kinds of Messianic churches, and they have very variable beliefs. It is not a single movement. Some of them are basically mainstream Christian churches with a Judaized appearance/focus, and some of them are an actual hybrid of Judaism and Christianity, as Christian Zionist mentioned. This latter variety is definitely heretical by all standards of Christendom.

as far as judaism is concerned, they are all forbidden to jews..
so aside from their beliefs, I am wondering what signs there are, i.e., signs that one sees with one's eyes, that indicate it is messianic.

I personally don't need to know since I would not go in a church, but some gentiles here like the original poster, might stand to gain from knowing.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

He knew that he did not have to abide by the law in order to reach salvation. He never actually rejected it. What he condemned was telling people that they must practice all of Torah in order to get to heaven.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

so aside from their beliefs, I am wondering what signs there are, i.e., signs that one sees with one's eyes, that indicate it is messianic.

They almost invariably have a Hebrew name or are called a temple rather than a church.

[q_q_]

He knew that he did not have to abide by the law in order to reach salvation. He never actually rejected it. What he condemned was telling people that they must practice all of Torah in order to get to heaven.

The idea that you have to practice all of torah to get to heaven, when christians refer to that, they mean without any sin, which is impossible. And that is how they present pharaisic judaism, as teaching that one has to keep -all- of it perfectly. So they teach that you go to hell unless you accept J.

nobody actually taught what Paul claimed.. (assuming it was paul that claimed that and not another gospel writer).

But he was rejecting pharaisic judaism by saying that. He was just twisting it in order to help turn people away from it.  He wasn't condemning a belief that didn't exist.. His condemnation was his twist on pharaisic judaism, which was what he was condemning.

pharaisic judaism is belief in keeping the law..   condemning what he condemned was meant to condemn pharaisic judaism

note- christian theology is not my area of expertise!

[Christian Zionist]

Good points by all. By the way, it should be pointed out that the early Christians (such as Paul) never actually condemned Judaism or told people they had to give their Jewishness up. This is a lie that was invented by anti-Semites hundreds of years later in the church. Paul (who never renounced his membership in the Pharisaical branch of Judaism) taught that keeping halacha is optional and not mandatory for salvation, not something wrongful that had to be stopped.

Paul himself said something along the lines of
To the jews I am as a jew so that I may win them over..
e.t.c.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became like a man under the law, in order to win those under the law (although I myself am not under the law).

sounds like he would renounce judaism to me, and adopt it when it suited him. And the brackets say that he had renounced it!
Not under the law means renouncing judaism. Or as you call it, pharaisic judaism.

(although I myself am not under the law).

1. Paul here is not referring to the Oral law but only to the written Torah.  In those days the Oral law was yet to be codified as Mishna.  So Paul here obviously refers to the written law (first 5 books of the Tanach).  Also there is no concept of Oral law in Christianity

2. Not under the law means.....  A dead person is not under the law.  God gave the Jews Torah and made covenant with them.  They are eternal and God's convenant cannot be changed or cancelled by anyone.  The only way for a human being to come out of the law is by death.  A dead person cannot be prosecuted.  Here Paul means he was dead when Jesus died (as a planet would collapse when the solar system collapses).  The same is applicable to
every true Christian.  For example I, who is a Bible believing Christian do not believe that NT cancelled the Tanach.  All commandments listed in the first 5 books of the Tanach are still vaild but by death (which we believe by faith) we Christians get around the law.

As Chaim Fan pointed out observing the law is not mandatory for salvation.

Even some Christian Churches display Jewish symbols and Pastor preach on specific themes related to Jewish festivals.  The best way to distinguish a main stream Church and a Messianic congregation is by the title displayed on the sign boards.  Messianics do not use the term Christian in their labels.

[q_q_]

Good points by all. By the way, it should be pointed out that the early Christians (such as Paul) never actually condemned Judaism or told people they had to give their Jewishness up. This is a lie that was invented by anti-Semites hundreds of years later in the church. Paul (who never renounced his membership in the Pharisaical branch of Judaism) taught that keeping halacha is optional and not mandatory for salvation, not something wrongful that had to be stopped.

Paul himself said something along the lines of
To the jews I am as a jew so that I may win them over..
e.t.c.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became like a man under the law, in order to win those under the law (although I myself am not under the law).

sounds like he would renounce judaism to me, and adopt it when it suited him. And the brackets say that he had renounced it!
Not under the law means renouncing judaism. Or as you call it, pharaisic judaism.

(although I myself am not under the law).

1. Paul here is not referring to the Oral law but only to the written Torah.  In those days the Oral law was yet to be codified as Mishna.  So Paul here obviously refers to the written law (first 5 books of the Tanach).  Also there is no concept of Oral law in Christianity

2. Not under the law means.....  A dead person is not under the law.  G-d gave the Jews Torah and made covenant with them.  They are eternal and G-d's convenant cannot be changed or cancelled by anyone.  The only way for a human being to come out of the law is by death.  A dead person cannot be prosecuted.  Here Paul means he was dead when Jesus died (as a planet would collapse when the solar system collapses).  The same is applicable to
every true Christian.  For example I, who is a Bible believing Christian do not believe that NT cancelled the Tanach.  All commandments listed in the first 5 books of the Tanach are still vaild but by death (which we believe by faith) we Christians get around the law.

As Chaim Fan pointed out observing the law is not mandatory for salvation.

Even some Christian Churches display Jewish symbols and Pastor preach on specific themes related to Jewish festivals.  The best way to distinguish a main stream Church and a Messianic congregation is by the title displayed on the sign boards.  Messianics do not use the term Christian in their labels.

the oral law existed prior to the mishna being written.

and pharisees to which he often referred to, did keep the torah - oral and written.

(Or rather, keep the oral, and the written touches implicitly or explicitly, on everything in it , so really the whole written, like eating matza, and capital punishment- which requires a sanhedrin.. is kept too)

When it says to the jews I am as a jew.. To those under the law I become under the law..

I don't think he is just referring to saducees(the karaites of their time - they just kept the written).
 

[q_q_]

<snip>
Maybe some diseased Palestinian deleted it.

are you referring to a moderator?

BTW, did you learn to curse me from listening to Chaim curse Hitler?

[Scriabin]

<snip>
Maybe some diseased Palestinian deleted it.

are you referring to a moderator?

Yes.

[Scriabin]

<snip>
Maybe some diseased Palestinian deleted it.

did you learn to curse me from listening to Chaim curse Hitler?

I think it was Al Sharpton.

[q_q_]

<snip>
Maybe some diseased Palestinian deleted it.

did you learn to curse me from listening to Chaim curse Hitler?

I think it was Al Sharpton.

him too then..

But you would know that it is most commonly used after people such as Hitler ,Arafat, Haj Amin al Husseini..
Are you aware of that?

 

[Scriabin]

<snip>
Maybe some diseased Palestinian deleted it.

did you learn to curse me from listening to Chaim curse Hitler?

I think it was Al Sharpton.

him too then..

But you would know that it is most commonly used after people such as Hitler ,Arafat, Haj Amin al Husseini..
Are you aware of that?

Yes.  It is like insulting a person's Mother.

[Christian Zionist]

Yes, Oral law existed before the codification of Mishna.  NT calls Oral law as "the tradition of the elders".  Jesus and His disciples recongnized the existence of Oral traditions but did not believe that it was divinely inspired.  According to NT Sadducees did not believe in resurrection and angels.  Sadducees also followed only the first 5 books.  However Pharisees believed in the entire Tanach plus the Oral traditions.   Jesus, His followers and Paul recognized only the Tanach as the Divinely inspired scriptures like the Karites.

Well, I do not want to post anymore in this thread.  That will unnecessarilly cause division among us. Let us focus on Zionism and on defeating BHO.

[q_q_]

<snip>
Maybe some diseased Palestinian deleted it.

did you learn to curse me from listening to Chaim curse Hitler?

I think it was Al Sharpton.

him too then..

But you would know that it is most commonly used after people such as Hitler ,Arafat, Haj Amin al Husseini..
Are you aware of that?

Yes.  It is like insulting a person's Mother.

Don't play dumb..  

You are not so stupid that you think saying that curse is like saying

Hitler's mother was stupid e.t.c.

You are not so stupid that you think when Jews curse Hitler or Arafat, they are saying something that is "like insulting a person's mother".

[Haim_Ben_Shimon_3JFB]

you can find plenty of pictures on google and articles about that

[Scriabin]

<snip>
Maybe some diseased Palestinian deleted it.

did you learn to curse me from listening to Chaim curse Hitler?

I think it was Al Sharpton.

him too then..

But you would know that it is most commonly used after people such as Hitler ,Arafat, Haj Amin al Husseini..
Are you aware of that?

Yes.  It is like insulting a person's Mother.

Don't play dumb..  

You are not so stupid that you think saying that curse is like saying

Hitler's mother was stupid e.t.c.

You are not so stupid that you think when Jews curse Hitler or Arafat, they are saying something that is "like insulting a person's mother".

Get bent.

[q_q_]

<snip>
Maybe some diseased Palestinian deleted it.

did you learn to curse me from listening to Chaim curse Hitler?

I think it was Al Sharpton.

him too then..

But you would know that it is most commonly used after people such as Hitler ,Arafat, Haj Amin al Husseini..
Are you aware of that?

Yes.  It is like insulting a person's Mother.

Don't play dumb..  

You are not so stupid that you think saying that curse is like saying

Hitler's mother was stupid e.t.c.

You are not so stupid that you think when Jews curse Hitler or Arafat, they are saying something that is "like insulting a person's mother".

Get bent.

Are you seriously so stupid that you think when Jews curse Hitler or Arafat, they are saying something that is "like insulting a person's mother".   ?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

OK, this is getting absurd. You ladies take this offline.

[Scriabin]

OK, this is getting absurd. You ladies take this offline.

Ladies?

That's something, coming from someone who doesn't have the guts to meet with fellow JTF supporters.

[Shlomo]

Maybe some diseased Palestinian deleted it.

I deleted it. Let's be careful about insulting the moderators and the other administration on JTF. They deserve more respect than that for volunteering their time and all the work they do as charity to JTF. Thankfully it was me and it can end here.

We do not curse Jewish members of the forum (Chaim has repeated this over and over again) and we do not call their mothers a whore. This makes us look terrible and is a huge sin.

I will not allow the Jews on this forum to have the curses said to them. Those curses are NOT to be taken lightly and are reserved only for the most evil of all mankind.

This thread is locked.