Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Breakdown of the Halakhic System - Two Earth-Shattering Shiurim - Exclusive
Lubab:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on June 30, 2008, 08:23:45 PM ---
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 30, 2008, 08:07:20 PM ---<snip>
Bottom line: if you are not willing to open your mind to the possiblity that these sources are compatible you won't understand. Will is higer than intellect and plays it like a puppet. If you are open to the possiblity you'll search and find the truth of each statement. What can I tell you? It's up to you.
--- End quote ---
so you're willing to go against the plain meaning of what all these rabbis wrote.
suppose rabbi A says X. And you accept X.
Then as soon as Rabbi B appears and says something that appears to contradict rabbi A.
You then reinterpret Rabbi A and Rabbi B, rejecting the plain meaning of both of them.
If rabbi B had never said anything, or if you had not heard of RAbbi B, then you would have accepted the plain meaning of Rabbi A.
You look at everything as if it has been said by the same rabbi.
So. What if there is a time gap of 100 years.
Does that mean that all of Rabbi A's students take him for what he says. Then 100 years after, Rabbi B says something. And so descendents of students of Rabbi A have to reject their former view that they were taught, as they understood it.
The fact that you have to change your interpretation of Rabbi A each time another rabbi speaks on the subject, and then accept no rabbi for his plain meaning. Is just so blatantly irrational. It means you change your position the whole time.. You don't take any of them seriously.
side note-
Besides chassidic rebbes. Did all the rabbis that had this ruach hakodesh power live before the Baal Shem Tov?
'cos if they lived after then you'd have to reinterpret chabad teachings rejecting any plain meanings in light of those that have apparently contradicted accepted chabad teaching.
second side note- I know of no chabad rabbi that takes this extreme view tht you have.. that no rabbis between the talmud and the taz disagreed..
If you have an exact quote and reference, from that shulchan aruch harav that you mentioned.. that would be interesting , i could put it to some askmoses scholar. There are one or two good ones.
--- End quote ---
There is no rejection of plain meaning going on here, just a recogniton that the plain meaning is not the ONLY meaning to a verse. Some of Chazal speak about the pshat of a pasuk and some talk about the Remez and some the Derush etc.
I think you do have an obligation to see if there is truly irreconcilable difference between the opinions before you reject one as invalid.
We need to recognize that these sages were a lot smarter than us and if we think one of their explanations is invalid it is almost certain that the flaw is in our understanding of the explanation, not with the explanation itself.
That's how you are supposed to learn. The alternative that is being suggested here is just throwing out SEEMINGLY inconsistent statements because they seem ILLOGICAL TO US. No attempt at reconciliation. No thought they maybe, just maybe these Rabbis meant something a bit deeper than what we understand from there words. It's a lazy way to learn and I'm not really sure it can be called
"Torah learning" at all because the student is looking for his own truth, not the truth found in the holy words in front of him.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 30, 2008, 06:49:42 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on June 30, 2008, 06:28:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 30, 2008, 06:05:53 PM ---
P.S. JNC I got quite a laugh from your "beat to the punch". It's a lot easier to tear down the arguments you make for me than the ones I actually make so I understand where you are coming from there. I don't know who taught you how to learn like that but it obviously wasn't someone who really knew how Torah or Chassidut for that matter works.
--- End quote ---
My satirical explanation made about as much sense as yours did.
And the truth is that your whole view of the Torah shows that you don't understand how the Torah and talmudic system works. You wedidn't explain to me how a person who thinks both opinions are right can possibly give a psak halakha other than just picking the more stringent view in all issues.
Listen to the second shiur.
According to the Rambam's principle, if you can disprove what Rav Bar Hayim says in those first two shiurim to my satisfaction, I'll become a Chabadnik.
--- End quote ---
You obviously did not read my post.
I said how you pasken halacha. You generally go by the Rov. Further, if it is a deoratta we go lechumra if it is a derabbanan we go lekulah.
I think the explanation above is perfectly logical. If you don't think it is I'd like to know why SPECIFICALLY.
I will be happy to try and disprove that section and make you into a Chabadnik when I get a chance.
--- End quote ---
Go by the Rov of whom? Geonim? Rishonim? Achronim? All of the above?
That is ludicrous. The Talmudh is what decides the Halakha and if one interpretation makes the most sense, who cares how many other opinions disagree with it?
Your principle of going by the Rov when applied to hundreds of Hakhamim over thousands of years makes no sense at all.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on July 01, 2008, 03:51:36 AM ---
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 30, 2008, 06:49:42 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on June 30, 2008, 06:28:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 30, 2008, 06:05:53 PM ---
P.S. JNC I got quite a laugh from your "beat to the punch". It's a lot easier to tear down the arguments you make for me than the ones I actually make so I understand where you are coming from there. I don't know who taught you how to learn like that but it obviously wasn't someone who really knew how Torah or Chassidut for that matter works.
--- End quote ---
My satirical explanation made about as much sense as yours did.
And the truth is that your whole view of the Torah shows that you don't understand how the Torah and talmudic system works. You wedidn't explain to me how a person who thinks both opinions are right can possibly give a psak halakha other than just picking the more stringent view in all issues.
Listen to the second shiur.
According to the Rambam's principle, if you can disprove what Rav Bar Hayim says in those first two shiurim to my satisfaction, I'll become a Chabadnik.
--- End quote ---
You obviously did not read my post.
I said how you pasken halacha. You generally go by the Rov. Further, if it is a deoratta we go lechumra if it is a derabbanan we go lekulah.
I think the explanation above is perfectly logical. If you don't think it is I'd like to know why SPECIFICALLY.
I will be happy to try and disprove that section and make you into a Chabadnik when I get a chance.
--- End quote ---
Go by the Rov of whom? Geonim? Rishonim? Achronim? All of the above?
That is ludicrous. The Talmudh is what decides the Halakha and if one interpretation makes the most sense, who cares how many other opinions disagree with it?
Your principle of going by the Rov when applied to hundreds of Hakhamim over thousands of years makes no sense at all.
--- End quote ---
I meant Rov i.e. the majority not Rov i.e. Rabbi.
Lubab:
The Talmud itself prescribes this method for deciding the halacha. Generally the academy that is larger wins, or in some cases the academy that is more expert in the field. It depends on whether it's dinei mamonos or dinei nefashos whether it's deoraitta or derabannan.
These are the basic principles of paskening halacha. It's the ABCs.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Lubab on July 01, 2008, 03:52:51 AM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on July 01, 2008, 03:51:36 AM ---
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 30, 2008, 06:49:42 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on June 30, 2008, 06:28:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 30, 2008, 06:05:53 PM ---
P.S. JNC I got quite a laugh from your "beat to the punch". It's a lot easier to tear down the arguments you make for me than the ones I actually make so I understand where you are coming from there. I don't know who taught you how to learn like that but it obviously wasn't someone who really knew how Torah or Chassidut for that matter works.
--- End quote ---
My satirical explanation made about as much sense as yours did.
And the truth is that your whole view of the Torah shows that you don't understand how the Torah and talmudic system works. You wedidn't explain to me how a person who thinks both opinions are right can possibly give a psak halakha other than just picking the more stringent view in all issues.
Listen to the second shiur.
According to the Rambam's principle, if you can disprove what Rav Bar Hayim says in those first two shiurim to my satisfaction, I'll become a Chabadnik.
--- End quote ---
You obviously did not read my post.
I said how you pasken halacha. You generally go by the Rov. Further, if it is a deoratta we go lechumra if it is a derabbanan we go lekulah.
I think the explanation above is perfectly logical. If you don't think it is I'd like to know why SPECIFICALLY.
I will be happy to try and disprove that section and make you into a Chabadnik when I get a chance.
--- End quote ---
Go by the Rov of whom? Geonim? Rishonim? Achronim? All of the above?
That is ludicrous. The Talmudh is what decides the Halakha and if one interpretation makes the most sense, who cares how many other opinions disagree with it?
Your principle of going by the Rov when applied to hundreds of Hakhamim over thousands of years makes no sense at all.
--- End quote ---
I meant Rov i.e. the majority not Rov i.e. Rabbi.
--- End quote ---
I know what you meant. And I was asking whether you go by the majority of the Geonim, Rishonim, Achronim or all of the above.
And also, Lubab if you can only pasken halakhic based on a number system ie. finding a majority of great sages who lived in the past, how can you possibly apply halakha to a new reality, a new situation that those Rabbis never had to deal with, ie test tube babies, cloning, fighting a civilian enemy in wartime, qorban pesah etc?
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