Author Topic: Criticizing Judaism/other religions. (Read 7560 times)

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #25 on:** July 16, 2008, 12:21:55 PM »

q_q, clearly everybody has moved on and is interested in discussing news and daily events about Israel and the United States, except you.

Nobody else is trying to keep this [censored] match going--nobody. Feel free to keep on having conversations with yourself.

I am moving on now--except that I will part with one question: when were you made an admin of this forum that we now have this rule that we cannot criticize Judaism or Christianity under any circumstances? I guess Chaim has been busy with the appointments recently.

So... now, it is against the rules for me to say that virtually all of Christianity in 1490 was Nazi? Are you going to ban me for saying that?

Please don't ban me! Give me a second chance!

q_q_ · « **Reply #26 on:** July 16, 2008, 12:27:40 PM »

See the end of my post where I mentioned the purpose of this. Figuring out what you mean by some of christianity or some of judaism.

so you defined what you mean in terms of some of christianity being bad.

What you meant was not christianity. But Christians for hundreds of years. (I would say for 2000 years!)

I think righteous pro israel philo-semitic christians are a very recent phenomena.

Infact, I think Chaim mentioned that it was after the 6 day war that we got a huge christian surge of love for israel. Because of the kiddush hashem of the 6 day war, the world realised we are G-d's people.

Talking about crusades and such, is not criticising christianity itself.

There is nothing in the new testament that justifies crusades.

I wouldn't call that criticising some of christianity.

What do you mean by criticising some of judaism though ?

Dr. Dan · « **Reply #27 on:** July 16, 2008, 12:31:40 PM »

Quote from: q_q_ on July 16, 2008, 02:07:59 AM

CF. You are using loose statements

"
I of course do not believe that all of Judaism is responsible for Israeli episodes of self-hatred (any more than I believe that all of Christianity is responsible for pogroms).
"

And the rest of your post does not -touch- theology. But talks of how jews or christians have not abided by their religion.

Fact is. Israel's self hating leaders do not even claim to be religious/practicing/orthodox jews. Neither do the leaders of the big jewish organisations.

So this isn't some ticket for you to "criticise" judaism. Whatever that means.

What you do do, is you Curse the satmar rebbe(an anti-zionist rabbi). You claim he is not a rabbi. (he has rabbinical smicha, so he is). Neither jews or gentiles should be cursing jews. Especially not here. You have made comments about the judaism that religious members practice, and about the talmud. All suggesting some idea you have of jews practicing a jewish master race anti gentile based judaism. And this has been in reference to some jews here.

You are not qualified to comment on it. And your comments themselves have disqualified you from making any comment on it.
A gentile cannot say what is or is not judaism, any more than a jew can say what is or is not christianity.

You ask the question of if a Jew can marry a noachide (i.e. gentile). You are totally ignorant about judaism, and you want it to be something it isn't. (And you think jews here follow something that thank G-d they don't follow)

When religious Jews here say that jews are a family. You object. You are always wrong on anything you say about judaism. But whether you are right or wrong, there are religious jews here that can describe judaism. So you don't have to, thank G-d.

Let's not have jews or christians criticising judaism or christianity .

And Jews should not explain christianity, just as christians(or gentiles) should not explain judaism

I don't mean to chime in, but CF wasn't criticizing Torah or Judaism...even though what you are saying, qq, about people who do criticize Torah and Judaism is correct. CF wasn't doing that. And if he ever did in the past, Chaim corrected him for it.

Dr. Dan · « **Reply #28 on:** July 16, 2008, 12:34:40 PM »

"I will not back down from reminding us of the plain truth that currently, the majority of Judaism being practiced is not even remotely true to Torah and is being used to support and justify all kinds of evil, anti-Jewish decisions that self-hating leaders love to make."

CF, no offense..but you aren't qualified to say that since you aren't Jewish or even studied Jewish texts very heavily.

Yes there are a lot of Jews who do not follow Judaism properly...In fact, just about every Jew doesn't practice Judaism properly one way or another...we are human...no one can practice Judaism perfectly...and for that matter any specific theology.

Dr. Dan · « **Reply #29 on:** July 16, 2008, 12:37:52 PM »

Quote from: C.F. on July 16, 2008, 01:43:41 AM

KWRBT, the majority of world Jews today do not practice Torah Judaism. The majority of world Judaism today is Deformed or closely resembles it. Everybody knows what Deformed Judaism stands for.

After the Deformed Jews, there is the Conservative branch (which is scarcely any better), and then there are fraudulent pseudo-Torah Jews (such as is typified by the early '90s organization "Orthodox Rabbis for [black NYC former Mayor David] Dinkins" and currently by the frauds in the various splinter movements such as Mike Guzofsky and David Haivri).

Finally, there are nominal, unobservant Jews who, for whatever reason, are not practicing anything at the moment. Most Jews in the Soviet Union, in its later stages, fit this category (note--I know that this was in large part due to persecution, but assimilating had become a way of life in any event to them).

CF, leave it to Jews to criticize Jews...I prefer you stick with christians adn criticizing some of their improper behavior that is "unchristian".

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #30 on:** July 16, 2008, 12:46:15 PM »

Dan, it is fine that you disagree with me. I don't need to repeat what I said anymore. The whole reason I made that thread was to clarify what I believed.

And q_q, if you read my first post you surely saw me acknowledge many times that the vast majority of historical Christianity has been Jew-hating. But how in the least is that any different from how the vast majority of pagan and non-Christian societies have treated Jews?

q_q_ · « **Reply #31 on:** July 16, 2008, 01:05:01 PM »

you started off with a subject for the thread of

Criticizing judaism/other religions.

Now instead of just saying the way christians have behaved for 2000 years, you say, Criticizing historical christianity. OK. Most religious christians, believing in their text, persecuted the jews terrible for 2000 years.. IMO, far more scary than the muslims.
so OK. Historical christianity.

What are you saying about criticising judaism though?
historical judaism? what do you mean criticizing judaism?

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #32 on:** July 16, 2008, 01:17:36 PM »

Quote from: q_q_ on July 16, 2008, 01:05:01 PM

Most religious christians, believing in their text,

What Christian text calls for committing jihads against non-Christians?

Quote

IMO, far more scary than the muslims.

How so?

DownwithIslam · « **Reply #33 on:** July 16, 2008, 01:25:17 PM »

Chaimfan, you write extremely well. I am pretty sure it requires too much reading comprehension for some people. Instead of criticizing what you wrote, they should try to learn from you instead.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #34 on:** July 16, 2008, 01:27:27 PM »

Thanks, but I do not write well on my own. Anything "good" that comes out of me is what G-d chose to give to me for a reason and a season, for His purposes, and not anything inherent in me.

DownwithIslam · « **Reply #35 on:** July 16, 2008, 01:28:57 PM »

Anyone who tries to insinuate that Chaimfan don't like jews needs to take some serious medication.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #36 on:** July 16, 2008, 01:29:56 PM »

Aww, thanks... I really do not need or deserve this kind of support, but what you said is funny if nothing else...

q_q_ · « **Reply #37 on:** July 16, 2008, 01:48:15 PM »

Quote from: C.F. on July 16, 2008, 01:17:36 PM

Quote from: q_q_ on July 16, 2008, 01:05:01 PM
Most religious christians, believing in their text,
What Christian text calls for committing jihads against non-Christians?

none. But they believe in their texts.

And they did crusades.

Quote from: C.F. on July 16, 2008, 01:17:36 PM

Quote from: q_q_
IMO, far more scary than the muslims.
How so?

muslims behaving badly, are just like wild animals.

christians when they behaved badly,, were very cold like the nazis.

I used to have frequent nightmares of what it would have been like as a jew linving under christians when they are forcing jews to convert to christianity or die, and jews jumped into the fire rather than convert.

I know how anything that christians don't like, becomes the work of satan.
I have heard that they used a verse in John criticising some jews, and used it to say that jews are children of Satan.

And I can imagine christians believed that jews were -satan-, or his children. And as they were burning jews, would call out from their bibles, while pushing a cross towards their faces.

I read once of how a christian pastor started exploring historical christian anti-semitism, when a jewish woman came to visit his church(she was obviously secular since it is forbidden, but anyhow). The pastor passed a big crucifix over in the direction of the congregants. And a shiver went through her. The pastor noticed that and was troubled by it. And he investigated christian anti-semitism.

Christian anti-semitism is very chilling.. Very cold and calculating. They would torture jews. Like nazis.

Muslims aren't like that, they are just wild animals. They are out of control.

Actually we have a tradition of how esau (who represents christianity) bit jacob's neck when they embraced, but by a miracle jacob's neck turned to marble and esau's teeth broke.

Yishmael(who represents muslims), however, was a wild man. Yes, they rip out organs, but they murder each other all the time.

I think that christians have changed. They are not many religious christians in britain so we don't hear of them. And they are very toned down, and don't have power.

But in America, you have religious christians who have changed.

But Esau represents what christians have been like, and I think what christians could be like if they are bad.. And they start looking at jews as satan..

I have an image of them chanting the new testament while burning jews, as if possessed. While calling jews satan.

Far Far scarier in my mind than muslims.

I haven't ever had nightmares about muslims. They're a wild bunch. I'm a bit worried about iran, but this is a recent development.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #38 on:** July 16, 2008, 01:56:04 PM »

Quote from: q_q_ on July 16, 2008, 01:48:15 PM

none. But they believe in their texts.

And they did crusades.

Check some history--the Crusades and Inquisition were executed on the basis of papal authority and commandment, not Scripture.

Quote from: q_q

I have heard that they used a verse in John criticising some jews, and used it to say that jews are children of Satan.

Have you actually ever read the Book of John or any of the rest of the New Testament?

Did you know that John was Jewish?

Isn't the person who didn't want any facet of the current practice of their faith criticized by an ousider calling the kettle black?

Quote

And I can imagine christians believed that jews were -satan-, or his children. And as they were burning jews, would call out from their bibles, while pushing a cross towards their faces.

What does real Christianity or the NT have to do with insane mobs of illiterate peasants (most of whom wouldn't know what a Bible was if one fell into their laps) whipped into a frenzy by the demagogues they blindly followed?

Quote

I read once of how a christian pastor started exploring historical christian anti-semitism, when a jewish woman came to visit his church(she was obviously secular since it is forbidden, but anyhow). The pastor passed a big crucifix over in the direction of the congregants. And a shiver went through her. The pastor noticed that and was troubled by it. And he investigated christian anti-semitism.

When did I ever deny the reality of historical Christian anti-Semitism?

Quote

Christian anti-semitism is very chilling.. Very cold and calculating. They would torture jews. Like nazis.

Muslims aren't like that, they are just wild animals. They are out of control.

I think Goldwasser and Regev would beg to differ with you if they could talk.

q_q_ · « **Reply #39 on:** July 16, 2008, 02:01:25 PM »

what is wrong with your logic. Probably a psychological problem on your part, it always is with people whose logic is so wrong.

I said that christians believed the new testament. (that's why they were christians)

And that they killed jews.

That doesn't mean that they did it because the new testament told them to.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #40 on:** July 16, 2008, 02:03:01 PM »

Quote from: q_q_ on July 16, 2008, 02:01:25 PM

what is wrong with your logic. Probably a psychological problem on your part, it always is with people whose logic is so wrong.

Whoa, great comeback! You really put me in my place!

But for the record--just because I am not a selfless pacifist devoted to world harmony like your NK rabbis doesn't make me Amalek!

Dr. Dan · « **Reply #41 on:** July 16, 2008, 02:12:31 PM »

cf and qq

you both have to stop with these personal attacks...

the discussion you are having is fine by me...but please both of you..refrain from putting the other one down.

Lisa · « **Reply #42 on:** July 16, 2008, 02:24:07 PM »

Please everyone, calm down.

Let's not go at each other's throats or I'll have to lock this thread.

q_q_ · « **Reply #43 on:** July 16, 2008, 02:24:57 PM »

Quote from: C.F. on July 16, 2008, 02:03:01 PM

Quote from: q_q_ on July 16, 2008, 02:01:25 PM
what is wrong with your logic. Probably a psychological problem on your part, it always is with people whose logic is so wrong.
Whoa, great comeback! You really put me in my place!

it's no big deal..

Most americans are left wing.. voting obama. They have a psychological block that stops them thinking.

It shouldn't be any suprise that even amongst the right, who are able to think correctly enough regarding the muslims, there will be some who will also have psychological blocks that stop them understanding other things.

People are just not logical or intellectual. Very few are. And usually not both.

Rabbi Kahane once said, the common people have alot of common sense and lead common lives, but they are not thinkers, they don't have much vision. And the thinkers/visionaries often have no common sense.

And so when I point out your logical problem, I point out also, that really the fault in you is not a logical one.

The same with dealing with the left. Logic has nothing to do with their problem. It's something blocking the logic.

So this diagnosis applies to the majourity of people. And even the saner minority - the right - of which you are a part, has the fault too, but in other areas of the mind.

It's not really a put down.. I think this is too deep for you, - especially as it's about you.

You talk about criticism e.g. of ovadia yosef, but just mock him with plays on his name. I just don't think you're a deep thinker to really grasp this discussion.
It's not a fault specific to you. Consider it a compliement that you are at least a right winger, and so not part of the epidemic of similar and more dangerous psychological flaws that the majourity of the population suffers from.

AsheDina · « **Reply #44 on:** July 16, 2008, 02:29:05 PM »

Quote from: Dr. Dan on July 16, 2008, 02:12:31 PM

cf and qq

you both have to stop with these personal attacks...

the discussion you are having is fine by me...but please both of you..refrain from putting the other one down.

As long as we live in AMERICA and its is not a muZlim nation.........yet............religions are open to be criticized. People SHOULD be able to do this, without a thread of going into exile. Personally, I dont like ANY religion. I believe 100% in Torah/Tanach and I LIKE the N.T. Torah, in my opinion is FREEDOM. Gd IS Gd. He is NOT in a box. I dont expect people to 'like' what I like- but DONT TRY TO CHANGE ME. I LIKE the way Gd has made me, and a few other in my life do too. If the rest dont like it------Get a quarter, and call someone who gives a dam.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #45 on:** July 16, 2008, 02:39:13 PM »

Quote from: q_q_ on July 16, 2008, 02:24:57 PM

It's not really a put down.. I think this is too deep for you, - especially as it's about you.

Maybe you are right. I cannot make any sense of what you wrote whatsoever.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #46 on:** July 16, 2008, 02:40:42 PM »

Quote from: Lisa on July 16, 2008, 02:24:07 PM

Please everyone, calm down.

Let's not go at each other's throats or I'll have to lock this thread.

Lisa, I started this thread in order to explain myself in the light of the poorly-worded thread I started yesterday (and have since edited).

Currently, there is one person who persists in attacking me, in this thread that I made in order to clarify what I really intended.

RationalThought110 · « **Reply #47 on:** July 16, 2008, 02:42:26 PM »

Quote from: C.F. on July 16, 2008, 01:57:14 AM

Most American Jews do not practice Torah and, in their ignorance, actually think AIPAC and similar groups are really standing up for their interests. They are very stupid for believing this. That is why Jews Against Obama needs to reach them right now.

'

One of the reasons why some think that AIPAC knows anything is because there are publications, such as one in LA, that write articles that give people a false impression that AIPAC, ADL, etc., know what they're talking about.

Ulli · « **Reply #48 on:** July 16, 2008, 02:43:32 PM »

q_q I admit to your thesis of evil people from a Christian background and a Muslime background.

Even "educated" Muslimes loose very quickly control. They turn into real quranimals. Plus they overestimate themselve always in all concerns. They seem to live more under their instincts than under rational thoughts.

The whole Muslime believe Islam lures it's followers with very fleshly rewards. Virgins, great palaces, Wine[!sic] tasty meals etc. in paradise

Evil people with a European-Christian background are slippery as an eel, cold and calculating.

briann · « **Reply #49 on:** July 16, 2008, 02:46:57 PM »

Quote from: Paulette on July 16, 2008, 02:29:05 PM

Quote from: Dr. Dan on July 16, 2008, 02:12:31 PM
cf and qq

you both have to stop with these personal attacks...

the discussion you are having is fine by me...but please both of you..refrain from putting the other one down.

As long as we live in AMERICA and its is not a muZlim nation.........yet............religions are open to be criticized. People SHOULD be able to do this, without a thread of going into exile. Personally, I dont like ANY religion. I believe 100% in Torah/Tanach and I LIKE the N.T. Torah, in my opinion is FREEDOM. Gd IS Gd. He is NOT in a box. I dont expect people to 'like' what I like- but DONT TRY TO CHANGE ME. I LIKE the way Gd has made me, and a few other in my life do too. If the rest dont like it------Get a quarter, and call someone who gives a dam.

Well said