democracy just as dangerous for the jews & judaism as communism... part one...

[muman613]

It's funny how nik posts so much on topics he knows nothing about.  Vatican, Jesuit movement etc.   Very few Jewish rabbis are experts on such things, yet nik proves that he isn't by his constant Mass-copy-pasting.

Nik, I suggest you start digesting research material and using discernment to gain a true understanding rather than taking all that seemingly agrees with your preconceived notions as fact and then copy and pasting bulks of it like a propagandist.  This is my friendly advice.

Are you sure he is copy-pasting? Nobody really writes that way other than Nik.

what do you mean, all I've ever seen from nik is copy and paste, it gets irritating to read after a while....  If this thread is any different, I probably got turned off by the   "...." after each sentence fragment and stopped reading.  Maybe I'm wrong.

Spot on KWRBT, the '...' is very irritating as it is not used in the correct manner. He uses this to punctuate each and every sentence. It denotes a person who has not learned proper grammer nor persuasive arguments.


muman613

That argument you just made wasn't that persuasive. What does someone's punctuation have to do with how well they form arguments?

It is not my job to try to persuade anyone whether or not Nik is to be trusted. I know my experience and what I learn. This stuff makes good stories for the TV and books, but as others have said it seems contradictory to the real purpose which I think JTF tries to accomplish.

Lubab, what is your impression of the situation. Do you really believe there is an evil cabal which is causing all evil in the world?

muman613

PS: Do you also believe in the Devil? Or in the power of Satan?

[Lubab]

BTW, what is Niks message? I fail to see anything besides the fear that all the world governments are conspiring against us and trying to destroy us. I know this is not true because I live in this world and I am doing very well and I remain faithful to my religion.

muman613

You haven't noticed the constant onslaught by all the world governments to get little Israel to commit national suicide (leading to another holocoust G-d forbid)?
You haven't noticed the fanatic support  by all the world governments for a Muslim anti-semitic American president who is very likely to start a race war here against whites and jews?

Frankly, I just don't know what you are talking about. If you want to look at the very very small picture I might agree with you but if you step back a bit you'd have to admit there is a war going on against us.

[Lubab]

It's funny how nik posts so much on topics he knows nothing about.  Vatican, Jesuit movement etc.   Very few Jewish rabbis are experts on such things, yet nik proves that he isn't by his constant Mass-copy-pasting.

Nik, I suggest you start digesting research material and using discernment to gain a true understanding rather than taking all that seemingly agrees with your preconceived notions as fact and then copy and pasting bulks of it like a propagandist.  This is my friendly advice.

Are you sure he is copy-pasting? Nobody really writes that way other than Nik.

what do you mean, all I've ever seen from nik is copy and paste, it gets irritating to read after a while....  If this thread is any different, I probably got turned off by the   "...." after each sentence fragment and stopped reading.  Maybe I'm wrong.

Spot on KWRBT, the '...' is very irritating as it is not used in the correct manner. He uses this to punctuate each and every sentence. It denotes a person who has not learned proper grammer nor persuasive arguments.


muman613

That argument you just made wasn't that persuasive. What does someone's punctuation have to do with how well they form arguments?

It is not my job to try to persuade anyone whether or not Nik is to be trusted. I know my experience and what I learn. This stuff makes good stories for the TV and books, but as others have said it seems contradictory to the real purpose which I think JTF tries to accomplish.

Lubab, what is your impression of the situation. Do you really believe there is an evil cabal which is causing all evil in the world?

muman613

PS: Do you also believe in the Devil? Or in the power of Satan?

The devil? No. Not a Jewish concept.

Satan is a Jewish concept but it is often misunderstood.

[muman613]

BTW, what is Niks message? I fail to see anything besides the fear that all the world governments are conspiring against us and trying to destroy us. I know this is not true because I live in this world and I am doing very well and I remain faithful to my religion.

muman613

You haven't noticed the constant onslaught by all the world governments to get little Israel to commit national suicide (leading to another holocoust G-d forbid)?
You haven't noticed the fanatic support  by all the world governments for a Muslim anti-semitic American president?

Frankly, I just don't know what you are talking about. If you want to look at the very very small picture I might agree with you but if you step back a bit you'd have to admit there is a war going on against us.

Lubab,

There are many reasons for the current state of things. I think it is in some way because our country tries too hard to make everyone happy. This is the same problem with Israel. It is true that there are forces which want a New World Order. I dont support that goal.

But I dont think writing like this helps us prevent the public from percieving Obamar as a popular candidate. What I think should be accomplished is to point to his lack of experience and his positions on important issues.

I respect your concern for the well being of the future of our people. And for that reason I will refrain from being too harsh in my judgements.

Thank you,
muman613

PS: Good answer on the Devil I was hoping you would say that...

PPS: I understand the concept of HaSatan, the accuser, who stands before the heavenly tribunal to testify to the averahs we have done. It is an issue I have argued with others about.

[Lubab]

Is there a cabal causing all the evil in the world?

Let's just put it this way. There is a lot of evil going on in the world. Most of the world's money and power is concentrated in a pretty small group of people. Whether or not they are planning something intentionally in conspiratorial fashion I have no idea because I am not invited to their meetings, nor am I even sure they have meetings.

So I have no idea to what extent this effort is organized or intentional but the Jews remain a small group surrounded by a pack of 70 wolves,  facing many threats to their very survival. Who is REALLY behind it? What are the details? I must humbly admit I don't know.

[muman613]

Is there a cabal causing all the evil in the world?

Let's just put it this way. There is a lot of evil going on in the world. Most of the world's money and power is concentrated in a pretty small group of people. Whether or not they are planning something intentionally in conspiratorial fashion I have no idea because I am not invited to their meetings, nor am I even sure they have meetings.

So I have no idea to what extent this effort is organized or intentional but the Jews remain a small group surrounded by a pack of 70 wolves,  facing many threats to their very survival. Who is REALLY behind it? What are the details? I must humbly admit I don't know.

This is something I can agree. History has shown that the non-Jewish systems are usually destructive to the Jewish soul. I understand this. But I also appreciate the goodness which this country has bestowed on me and my family. I cannot say that we have done poorly.

I give a good deal to the causes which require giving. I support Torah Scholars in Israel through the organization Ezra Torah. I give to Aish yeshiva, and to Chabad. I support my people every way I can.

What I disagree with is the way this is perceived by those from the outside. Do the Jews really hate America and think that it is against us? I am one who doesnt even come close to thinking like that.

muman613

[Lubab]

Is there a cabal causing all the evil in the world?

Let's just put it this way. There is a lot of evil going on in the world. Most of the world's money and power is concentrated in a pretty small group of people. Whether or not they are planning something intentionally in conspiratorial fashion I have no idea because I am not invited to their meetings, nor am I even sure they have meetings.

So I have no idea to what extent this effort is organized or intentional but the Jews remain a small group surrounded by a pack of 70 wolves,  facing many threats to their very survival. Who is REALLY behind it? What are the details? I must humbly admit I don't know.

This is something I can agree. History has shown that the non-Jewish systems are usually destructive to the Jewish soul. I understand this. But I also appreciate the goodness which this country has bestowed on me and my family. I cannot say that we have done poorly.

I give a good deal to the causes which require giving. I support Torah Scholars in Israel through the organization Ezra Torah. I give to Aish yeshiva, and to Chabad. I support my people every way I can.

What I disagree with is the way this is perceived by those from the outside. Do the Jews really hate America and think that it is against us? I am one who doesnt even come close to thinking like that.

muman613

Well when we talk about "America" we need to clarify if we are talking about the American government or its citizens. I have no problem with the American people and I don't think Nik does either.

Qualification: A growing minority of the American people are anti-semitic blacks and other third world haters and I do have a problem with them.
 

 

[Dr. Dan]

It's funny how nik posts so much on topics he knows nothing about.  Vatican, Jesuit movement etc.   Very few Jewish rabbis are experts on such things, yet nik proves that he isn't by his constant Mass-copy-pasting.

Nik, I suggest you start digesting research material and using discernment to gain a true understanding rather than taking all that seemingly agrees with your preconceived notions as fact and then copy and pasting bulks of it like a propagandist.  This is my friendly advice.

Are you sure he is copy-pasting? Nobody really writes that way other than Nik.

what do you mean, all I've ever seen from nik is copy and paste, it gets irritating to read after a while....  If this thread is any different, I probably got turned off by the   "...." after each sentence fragment and stopped reading.  Maybe I'm wrong.

 .

I fear that the way people are prejudging Nik and discrediting him without really considering the content of his arguments could be similar to the way Jews and others prejudged Jabotinsky and never really considered what he had to say. I could be wrong but I think it's a possibility because this has happened more than once throughout history. The story Nik tells is riveting and the facts should be checked to see how much of it is true.

Honestly? He's studied this stuff more than I have so I have no way of verifying unless I go do all the research myself. If we had a historian here who could go head to head with Nik that would be interesting.

If history is any indication you will all probably try to discredit me for pointing this out.





 

Lubab....no disrespect, but it is no surprise from you saying this, realizing that you are considering that 9/11 might have been a US govt conspiracy.

[AsheDina]

source material to follow madeline... back in awhile... nik. out...

Nik, nothing personal, but why don't you write in sentences? Without sentences it all sounds a bit creepy, like Anthony Hopkins in the Silence of the Lambs. Sentences have been in use for a long time, and have proved their value.

 Darreg- nik is a person that brings contraversy on the forum, I, personally like the way he writes, maybe he is trying to come across that way for a reason, we dont have many friends right now, you know, I just DONT like when everyone gets UGLY. So as long as it does not get ugly, I like it.  

[Dr. Dan]

Personally I think religious theocracy is the best system...

seriously....

muman613

well, it depends which nation...  If there is a nation which as all types of religions and theologies, this woudl be a terrible type of government...so I ask, for whom would you recommend a religious theocracy?  How can one determine it will be fair even for a Jewish nation that within itself has a pluralistic manner of practicing Judaism?

Dr Dan,

I was not being entirely serious when I proposed this. I do believe when we have risen to the level which Hashem wants us to the entire world may be able to live by Torah. This will be a glorious time, which I hope we see soon. But it seems it me beyond our capabilities. I will be ready when Moshiach comes.

muman613

idealistically, Israel would work under this condition eventually when all Jews understand the importance of Torah.  However, man is tremendously imperfect and today even more evil that we used to be.  For example, we live in a day where some Jews who present themsevles as religious are truely evil and govts which are truely evil..How can the common man trust the intention any ruler today?

So we need zealouts of righteousness to take course, like Chaim...to be a force for good..to scream for good.  To stand up for good...  Here is where the problem lies today. No govt is ideal..theocracy, democracy, despotism, etc, until we have someone righteous..or a govt which is righteous ruling over people...And what defines righteous..at least from a Jewish point of view and with my understanding, is when a person or govt rules with good righteous intentions (and for Jews according to Torah with proper and appropriate interpretations for the time according to past tzaddik rabbis), mercifully towards the people and nation, and with humility.  except we have too many with egos who are power hungry. In reality, us jews, we should not desire to be powerful...

[muman613]

Personally I think religious theocracy is the best system...

seriously....

muman613

well, it depends which nation...  If there is a nation which as all types of religions and theologies, this woudl be a terrible type of government...so I ask, for whom would you recommend a religious theocracy?  How can one determine it will be fair even for a Jewish nation that within itself has a pluralistic manner of practicing Judaism?

Dr Dan,

I was not being entirely serious when I proposed this. I do believe when we have risen to the level which Hashem wants us to the entire world may be able to live by Torah. This will be a glorious time, which I hope we see soon. But it seems it me beyond our capabilities. I will be ready when Moshiach comes.

muman613

idealistically, Israel would work under this condition eventually when all Jews understand the importance of Torah.  However, man is tremendously imperfect and today even more evil that we used to be.  For example, we live in a day where some Jews who present themsevles as religious are truely evil and govts which are truely evil..How can the common man trust the intention any ruler today?

So we need zealouts of righteousness to take course, like Chaim...to be a force for good..to scream for good.  To stand up for good...  Here is where the problem lies today. No govt is ideal..theocracy, democracy, despotism, etc, until we have someone righteous..or a govt which is righteous ruling over people...And what defines righteous..at least from a Jewish point of view and with my understanding, is when a person or govt rules with good righteous intentions (and for Jews according to Torah with proper and appropriate interpretations for the time according to past tzaddik rabbis), mercifully towards the people and nation, and with humility.  except we have too many with egos who are power hungry. In reality, us jews, we should not desire to be powerful...

Dr Dan,

You have expressed this very well. I agree with you about just about everything you said here. It will happen as our prophets have forseen. If you listen to the Rabbis talking about the birth pangs of Moshiach they alway say that it seems we are in the end time. The incredible fall of morality and the division which has occurred was all foreseen in the time of prophecy. I was explaining to a friend of mine that if you look at the story of Shemos {Exodus} the Jews fell to the 49th level of tumah {impurity}. They could not fall any more and still remain the Jewish people. What is learned from this? That before the redemption we may have to fall a great deal. This only strengthens my own EMMUNAH.

muman613

[Dr. Dan]

Personally I think religious theocracy is the best system...

seriously....

muman613

well, it depends which nation...  If there is a nation which as all types of religions and theologies, this woudl be a terrible type of government...so I ask, for whom would you recommend a religious theocracy?  How can one determine it will be fair even for a Jewish nation that within itself has a pluralistic manner of practicing Judaism?

Dr Dan,

I was not being entirely serious when I proposed this. I do believe when we have risen to the level which Hashem wants us to the entire world may be able to live by Torah. This will be a glorious time, which I hope we see soon. But it seems it me beyond our capabilities. I will be ready when Moshiach comes.

muman613

idealistically, Israel would work under this condition eventually when all Jews understand the importance of Torah.  However, man is tremendously imperfect and today even more evil that we used to be.  For example, we live in a day where some Jews who present themsevles as religious are truely evil and govts which are truely evil..How can the common man trust the intention any ruler today?

So we need zealouts of righteousness to take course, like Chaim...to be a force for good..to scream for good.  To stand up for good...  Here is where the problem lies today. No govt is ideal..theocracy, democracy, despotism, etc, until we have someone righteous..or a govt which is righteous ruling over people...And what defines righteous..at least from a Jewish point of view and with my understanding, is when a person or govt rules with good righteous intentions (and for Jews according to Torah with proper and appropriate interpretations for the time according to past tzaddik rabbis), mercifully towards the people and nation, and with humility.  except we have too many with egos who are power hungry. In reality, us jews, we should not desire to be powerful...

Dr Dan,

You have expressed this very well. I agree with you about just about everything you said here. It will happen as our prophets have forseen. If you listen to the Rabbis talking about the birth pangs of Moshiach they alway say that it seems we are in the end time. The incredible fall of morality and the division which has occurred was all foreseen in the time of prophecy. I was explaining to a friend of mine that if you look at the story of Shemos {Exodus} the Jews fell to the 49th level of tumah {impurity}. They could not fall any more and still remain the Jewish people. What is learned from this? That before the redemption we may have to fall a great deal. This only strengthens my own EMMUNAH.

muman613

But what's a great fall?  One woudl say the 6 million slaughter of the Shoah?  I mean who knows really?  Almost any Jew who is of the proper lineage can be moshiach at anytime...but to be him woudl take more than just proclaiming to be...Right now, we live in this world..we are supposed to be a force of good..and if not to a whole mass, to a few who can spread some good things outward and so on and so forth...

[GoIsraelGo!]

Personally I think religious theocracy is the best system...

seriously....

muman613

[/quote

well, it depends which nation...  If there is a nation which as all types of religions and theologies, this woudl be a terrible type of government...so I ask, for whom would you recommend a religious theocracy?  How can one determine it will be fair even for a Jewish nation that within itself has a pluralistic manner of practicing Judaism?

Dr Dan,

I was not being entirely serious when I proposed this. I do believe when we have risen to the level which Hashem wants us to the entire world may be able to live by Torah. This will be a glorious time, which I hope we see soon. But it seems it me beyond our capabilities. I will be ready when Moshiach comes.

muman613

idealistically, Israel would work under this condition eventually when all Jews understand the importance of Torah.  However, man is tremendously imperfect and today even more evil that we used to be.  For example, we live in a day where some Jews who present themsevles as religious are truely evil and govts which are truely evil..How can the common man trust the intention any ruler today?

So we need zealouts of righteousness to take course, like Chaim...to be a force for good..to scream for good.  To stand up for good...  Here is where the problem lies today. No govt is ideal..theocracy, democracy, despotism, etc, until we have someone righteous..or a govt which is righteous ruling over people...And what defines righteous..at least from a Jewish point of view and with my understanding, is when a person or govt rules with good righteous intentions (and for Jews according to Torah with proper and appropriate interpretations for the time according to past tzaddik rabbis), mercifully towards the people and nation, and with humility.  except we have too many with egos who are power hungry. In reality, us jews, we should not desire to be powerful...

Dr Dan,

You have expressed this very well. I agree with you about just about everything you said here. It will happen as our prophets have forseen. If you listen to the Rabbis talking about the birth pangs of Moshiach they alway say that it seems we are in the end time. The incredible fall of morality and the division which has occurred was all foreseen in the time of prophecy. I was explaining to a friend of mine that if you look at the story of Shemos {Exodus} the Jews fell to the 49th level of tumah {impurity}. They could not fall any more and still remain the Jewish people. What is learned from this? That before the redemption we may have to fall a great deal. This only strengthens my own EMMUNAH.

muman613

Shalom Muman613...We live in G-d's World because he placed us here to tend his Garden...Satan has sent forth starving locusts to devour all that is good in his garden...we must defeat Satan's locusts by killing them off and their eggs too....G-d expects this of us...we are his Children and we must survive and continue to serve G-d through mitzvot.

P.S. The Locusts are coming from the Middle East....we need to eliminate them...before they devour us.

                                                                               

[muman613]

Personally I think religious theocracy is the best system...

seriously....

muman613

[/quote

well, it depends which nation...  If there is a nation which as all types of religions and theologies, this woudl be a terrible type of government...so I ask, for whom would you recommend a religious theocracy?  How can one determine it will be fair even for a Jewish nation that within itself has a pluralistic manner of practicing Judaism?

Dr Dan,

I was not being entirely serious when I proposed this. I do believe when we have risen to the level which Hashem wants us to the entire world may be able to live by Torah. This will be a glorious time, which I hope we see soon. But it seems it me beyond our capabilities. I will be ready when Moshiach comes.

muman613

idealistically, Israel would work under this condition eventually when all Jews understand the importance of Torah.  However, man is tremendously imperfect and today even more evil that we used to be.  For example, we live in a day where some Jews who present themsevles as religious are truely evil and govts which are truely evil..How can the common man trust the intention any ruler today?

So we need zealouts of righteousness to take course, like Chaim...to be a force for good..to scream for good.  To stand up for good...  Here is where the problem lies today. No govt is ideal..theocracy, democracy, despotism, etc, until we have someone righteous..or a govt which is righteous ruling over people...And what defines righteous..at least from a Jewish point of view and with my understanding, is when a person or govt rules with good righteous intentions (and for Jews according to Torah with proper and appropriate interpretations for the time according to past tzaddik rabbis), mercifully towards the people and nation, and with humility.  except we have too many with egos who are power hungry. In reality, us jews, we should not desire to be powerful...

Dr Dan,

You have expressed this very well. I agree with you about just about everything you said here. It will happen as our prophets have forseen. If you listen to the Rabbis talking about the birth pangs of Moshiach they alway say that it seems we are in the end time. The incredible fall of morality and the division which has occurred was all foreseen in the time of prophecy. I was explaining to a friend of mine that if you look at the story of Shemos {Exodus} the Jews fell to the 49th level of tumah {impurity}. They could not fall any more and still remain the Jewish people. What is learned from this? That before the redemption we may have to fall a great deal. This only strengthens my own EMMUNAH.

muman613

Shalom Muman613...We live in G-d's World because he placed us here to tend his Garden...Satan has sent forth starving locusts to devour all that is good in his garden...we must defeat Satan's locusts by killing them off and their eggs too....G-d expects this of us...we are his Children and we must survive and continue to serve G-d through mitzvot.

P.S. The Locusts are coming from the Middle East....we need to eliminate them...before they devour us.

                                                                               

republicandox,

I believe that the Satan is that which challenges us. Hashem has only good in mind for us and it is our responsibility, the Jewish people, to rectify the original disruption of the plan which occured because of the sin in the garden. We are his children and we are being Chastised by him. I posted a Psalm today which expresses this idea {Chapter 44}. http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=23988.0

We will be victorious in the end, this has been promised. The journey will not be easy and the personal Satan will challenge our faith and trust in the promise. This is how I see life every day. It is such a personal challenge, and a family challenge, and a national challenge, and a human challenge. My family has been dealt nothing but challenge, and we have survived and thrived. It is this challenge which makes my faith in the world to come so real.

muman613