Poll

What is your view on proselytes to Judaism?

Proselytes are a pain in the backside
0 (0%)
Jews were exiled for the purpose of gaining proselytes
0 (0%)
I disdain converts for non-religious reasons, e.g. to preserve unique Jewish culture
0 (0%)
People would only convert to a religion so disdained by gentiles for ulterior motives e.g. to marry beautiful Jewish woman
0 (0%)
What ask you this stupid question?  :-)
5 (62.5%)
They are good Jews if they are sincere.
3 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: What is YOUR opinion on this statement  (Read 4793 times)

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wonderfulgoy

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What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« on: September 04, 2006, 09:03:25 PM »
Come on folks, I have not read much discussion of this in the forums.

I mean, you'd think that someone would have to be very messed up in the head to want to take on the burden of Jewish alienation among gentiles.  Then again, the establishment of Israel is a place where many proselytes have gone and feel welcome in their own nation.

'It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.

...

traditional Judaism maintains that a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is. The liberal movements, on the other hand, consider a person to be Jewish if either of his parents was Jewish and the child was raised Jewish. Thus, if the child of a Jewish father and a Christian mother is raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Reform movement, but not according to the Orthodox movement. On the other hand, if the child of a Christian father and a Jewish mother is not raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Orthodox movement, but not according to the Reform movement! '

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

Offline Shlomo

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2006, 09:33:07 PM »
A convert is just as Jewish as any born Jew. Some of our greatest Torah sages were descended from converts, including the legendary Rabbi Akiva. King David would not have been Jewish if his grandmother, Ruth, had not been a convert.

Furthermore, the Midrash contends that a genuine convert is more precious in G-d's eyes than one who was born Jewish. Why? Because one born of a Jewish mother had no choice in the matter. Says the Midrash, one who does make that conscious, deliberate choice to embrace the G-d of Abraham despite the unique unpopularity of the Children of Abraham, is someone worthy of G-d's special love.

[more info]
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article.asp?AID=385671
http://www.jewishmag.com/10MAG/DT/dt.htm
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

Offline Shlomo

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2006, 09:41:50 PM »
A convert is just as Jewish as any born Jew. Some of our greatest Torah sages were descended from converts, including the legendary Rabbi Akiva. King David would not have been Jewish if his grandmother, Ruth, had not been a convert.


Not true. Ruth was the mother of his grandfather. King David's mother is not from Ruth.

Interesting... you are very knowlegable, Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim. I trust what you say.

Why do they always say she was his grandmother then?
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

El Cabong!

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2006, 01:46:04 AM »
Why do you say that Judaism is a religion so disdained by gentiles that they would only consider it in order to marry a Jewish woman?
Why are you saying that we disdain the Jewish religion. What kind of stupid statement is that?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 02:04:07 AM by El Cabong! »

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2006, 11:36:32 PM »
Re:  "Converts to Judaism"

My favorite is Sammy Davis Jr.

Offline SoulsofBlack

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2006, 01:03:27 AM »
The way I always have looked at it, it should be the father. I like using a metaphor in that the man gives the "recipes/ingredients" while the women just has the workers to "construct" those blueprints into an actual living thing and delivering it. I mean, if it wasn't for the intial recipe then the final product wouldn't even exist which is why I belive for a man to be a more important factor.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 01:07:09 AM by SoulsofBlack »

wonderfulgoy

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2006, 01:14:17 AM »
Everyone thinks I'm stupid for asking such a question.

Okay, I admit it: I really am stupid. 

Offline Shlomo

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2006, 01:29:58 AM »
Everyone thinks I'm stupid for asking such a question.

Okay, I admit it: I really am stupid. 

Actually, you just said something in another thread about the eternal destruction of conciousness that I really agreed with for the first time. I'm starting to think that maybe you are a good guy - even if some of your beliefs are a bit strange to me... you might be a bit different but you aren't stupid.
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

Offline NeverMore

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2006, 06:53:27 AM »
The way I always have looked at it, it should be the father. I like using a metaphor in that the man gives the "recipes/ingredients" while the women just has the workers to "construct" those blueprints into an actual living thing and delivering it. I mean, if it wasn't for the intial recipe then the final product wouldn't even exist which is why I belive for a man to be a more important factor.

if i remember correctly, it started to go by the mother only after some huge pogrom made in europe, in which many Jewish men were murdered and many Jewish women raped. so there was gonna be a whole generation of non Jews born by Jewish mothers, and future sons of the same mothers could be fully Jewish by the "father", so to spare problems and be humane to the new-borns they changed the definition. something like that.


Kahane was right!

El Cabong!

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2006, 10:32:26 AM »
Everyone thinks I'm stupid for asking such a question.

Okay, I admit it: I really am stupid. 

I think you have a deep rooted hatefor Christianity and Gentiles and there is nothing anyone can do for you about your hate.

Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2006, 10:47:50 AM »
Nevermore, I am not sure where you heard that but it is the Gemara that decides Jewishness goes by the Mother, based upon the Torah. The law was always that Jewishness goes by the mother.
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

El Cabong!

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2006, 11:44:58 AM »
A convert is just as Jewish as any born Jew. Some of our greatest Torah sages were descended from converts, including the legendary Rabbi Akiva. King David would not have been Jewish if his grandmother, Ruth, had not been a convert.

Furthermore, the Midrash contends that a genuine convert is more precious in G-d's eyes than one who was born Jewish. Why? Because one born of a Jewish mother had no choice in the matter. Says the Midrash, one who does make that conscious, deliberate choice to embrace the G-d of Abraham despite the unique unpopularity of the Children of Abraham, is someone worthy of G-d's special love.

[more info]
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article.asp?AID=385671
http://www.jewishmag.com/10MAG/DT/dt.htm

Very good points, some of which I never knew before, thanks.

Offline NeverMore

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Re: What is YOUR opinion on this statement
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2006, 12:12:27 PM »
Nevermore, I am not sure where you heard that but it is the Gemara that decides Jewishness goes by the Mother, based upon the Torah. The law was always that Jewishness goes by the mother.

kahaneloyalist, i believe you. you must know better than me about Gemara issues. think it was back in school they actually taught it. well, the average history teachers here probably dont know much about Gemara either..
thanks though.


Kahane was right!