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Jewish people killed by Georgian army
SerbChicago:
--- Quote from: Ambiorix on August 22, 2008, 10:09:47 AM ---
--- Quote from: SerbChicago on August 22, 2008, 10:05:23 AM ---
--- Quote from: Ambiorix on August 22, 2008, 10:02:10 AM ---
--- Quote from: SerbChicago on August 22, 2008, 09:59:15 AM ---
--- Quote from: Ambiorix on August 22, 2008, 05:09:37 AM ---
--- Quote from: Manch on August 21, 2008, 11:45:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: Pheasant on August 21, 2008, 08:51:23 PM ---Saakaschwili did it shurly not on purpose, but he is crazy to bomb the whole town to the stoneage.
How could the Georgians elect this freak? Georgia will need years to recover from this war.
Not only Ossetia. :(
--- End quote ---
Mr. Saakashvili killed Ossetians like Polish killed German border guards in 1939 to provoke an invasion of Poland - in a very similar fashion. Didn't you know about 300,000 Georgians expelled from Ossetia by Russians in 1992, by unlawful grant of Russian citizenship to Ossetian - citizens of Georgia, by every day provocation and artillery fire on Georgia from Ossetia?
And, btw, where are all those 2,000 murdered Ossetians we've heard about from the Russians? No pictures no videos - similar to the propaganda of mass murders, hundreds of thousands no less!, perpetrated by Serbs - we all heard about it but no one have seen mass albanians/bosnians graves.
Look Pheasant, I am really surprised by you - you choose to favor KGB expansionist over the Harvard educated lawyer, fluent in 5 languages, democratically elected, most pro-Western president of the little country which is very friendly with Israel and USA!? ::)
--- End quote ---
I don't trust a President that makes speeches in front of the EU (=new USSR) flag.
And I certainly don't want another USA/NATO puppet state in Eurasia.
--- End quote ---
You mean USA/NATO state by Georgia?
--- End quote ---
I mean Kosovo (which is a USA-EU-NATO - muslim state),
and there are a copple of countries that side with the USA, e.g. Georgia, Tadjikistan, Kirgistan, etc,..
Essentially, the NATO is surrounding Russia, and that will lead to an escalation sooner or later.
--- End quote ---
Ofcorse Ambiorix and it is unnessesery and recless thing to do,don't you think?That is the whole point of my argument!
--- End quote ---
Well I don't know. I suppose the US troops should return home and guard the Mexican border.
I see no use in permanently policing the world.
--- End quote ---
Yes,we got bigger problems with our land.We can not protect our border but willing to die for others?!Where is logic in this one...i guss we have outsorce that too to some forigen country which later we will support and die for. :(
syyuge:
Perhaps it was the destiny of Tbilisi and Georgia not to remain like an excellent nation. Firstly they were in Czarist and Soviet Empires, then when they became democrats they opted for independence only for being pursued by vicious Expansionist Empire of NATO.
Hungarian:
--- Quote from: republicandox on August 21, 2008, 11:06:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on August 21, 2008, 10:29:11 PM ---please don't post lies on this forum, serbchicago.
--- End quote ---
O0
Shalom from Dox
--- End quote ---
O0 8;)
Manch:
--- Quote from: Pheasant on August 22, 2008, 05:33:03 AM ---
Manch, I don't support Russia but I have symphaties for the Georgians, and just because of Sakaschwili is a Harvard educated lawyer, fluent in 5 languages and western orientated he is actually more guilty.
He has lost his sense for reality and acted the last years blindfolded.
And remember my words - No western gouvernment will pressure Russia seriously. The Russian bear will do with the Georgians now what he wants and they will suffer hard.
Thiswas absolutly not necessary. S. should have used the salami technique. He should have made Georgia simply more attractive then Russia. Cultural and Economical. So the Ossetians and Abchasians have themselve orientated to Georgia instead of Russia.
During this process and later too, he should have made compromises with Russia, put himself a little bit down. In order to not provoke the bear.
But now all is lost. Thanks to Saakaschwili. ::)
Russia has changed. It is back and their administration intelligence services and military work again very well, like you can see. They have plans for world power again, but they are acting not irrational, even a lot of deeds of them are very evil.
--- End quote ---
Pheasant, I don't agree with the basic premise of your argument and suppport Georgia and Mr. Saakashvili. Mr. Saakashvili was instrumental in turning Georgia ecomony around and significantly reducing levels of corruption in Georgia. However, I do find that your reasoning and logic has a lot of merit and bears a certain validity. I agree, and I don't know the whole picture, that, perhaps, Mr. Saakashvili could have done more to stay away from Russian provocations and should have tried his best not to behave like a bull in china shop. Perhaps he underestimated Russia and overestimated his own capabilities. Also, I agree that even though Europeans are as incapable of pressuring Russia as your average 50 year old pressuring his boss for a raise, US intervened and very effectively is sending Russians home packing with nothing.
As far as salami approach - yes, a great point! But, Georgia already has a relatively prosperous economy, much better than that of Ossetia and Abkhazia. But can Georgia compete, as far as bribes to the local mafiosi governments, with the Russian petro-dollars?
I have a gut feeling that Georgia was setup by Russians in response to the Kosovo travesty. How come, if this was a major offensive by Georgia, knowing that there was a readied 58th Russian army pulled right to the Georgian border, Georgians were not mobilized? Even more telling, they had only one or two brigades(!!!) operating in the theater! This doesn't compute very well. Another tell tale sign is that all Georgian actions against Russians clearly were conducted in an add-hoc manner - no permanent or semi-permanent defense positions were erected, no coordinated artillery support, solders still staying on their military basis right in their barracks, around 50 tanks captured by Russians were not manned, etc, etc. And, btw, where are all these 2,000 corpses?! These are just a few doubts of the sincerity of Russian claims that I have.
I have another feeling that Russia, even more aggressively, is going to target Israel via its proxies to get back at America.
Ulli:
The thing with Israel is true. This is a great danger. You are right.
And the Russian troops were since years in disposition. This is how an army works. You have different readiness states. If you are in the highest levels you can move a whole division beneath one day with all equipment.
The Georgian soldiers and their leadership were not trained enough to react appropriate. I guess some of the officers did this on purpose to save lifes, like Denmark in WW2.
For shure you are right, that Russia waited for this opportunity and with great chance they overdraw the victims in the Ossetian capital.
But Saakaschwili acted the whole last years imprudent and hotheaded. Something happened to him. He was Georgians greatest hope and he developed over the years into a complete failure.
Alone his press conferences were a joke. The Russians are marching and fighting and he gave one press-release after the other in front of the EU flag, like Saddams propaganda minister. He lost a lot of sympathies in the whole west althrough nobody wants to destabilize Georgia more by stepping him in the back.
His days are counted in any way. Let's hope that the situation will be as soon as possible like before the war.
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