Christians, Jews and Muslims all Pray to the Same God?

[Shamgar]

I am arguing with some liberals over on another forum, who see nothing wrong with Islam, they have this same argument that the Christian and Jewish God is the same as the Muslim God.

What is a good argument in regards to this? I have a hard time responding back to them intelligently/

Thanks

[AsheDina]

Al Lah- it is in The Tanach, it means evil or satan. So, obviously NOT the same one with the moZ..but I totally believe that the G-d Christians believe in IS HaShem, but the Torah which is included in your bible, is all messed up- there are places online, I believe that you can compare, I might get yelled at for this.. but there is a website where you can see how they messed up Torah.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Al Lah- it is in The Tanach, it means evil or satan.

 No this is NOT true. This is the messed up translation that people who do not know the Torah translate (Evanglican's translate is this way). I dont want to defend Muslims, BUT we need to say the truth and not make unnecessary lies and propaganda because when the truth is proven otherwise your case looses credibility all together. So with that said- it is a question in the sense that Muslims are agains't the Jews, so do they really pray and worship the same G-d as Jews or not? - Once again it remains a question, but all the Allah means Satan, and other things like that are NOT true, and are not what Judaism says.  BUT on the other hand what is true about Muslims expecially today is that they are NOT serving G-d properly in what they are doing expecially in the field of Murder. As a whole their organization is involved in Murder (and many in stealing, etc., but its a global thing not only pertained to them) which is very wrong, and absolutly not allowed for them or anyone else in any way, either doing it, or supporting/cheering/being happy about it, etc.

[t_h_j]

Al Lah- it is in The Tanach, it means evil or satan. So, obviously NOT the same one with the moZ..but I totally believe that the G-d Christians believe in IS HaShem, but the Torah which is included in your bible, is all messed up- there are places online, I believe that you can compare, I might get yelled at for this.. but there is a website where you can see how they messed up Torah.

come on paulette, thats a dopey argument and you know it.  You do realize that "allah" is not a hebrew word, right?

[muman613]

Allah does not mean Satan... The word for Satan in hebrew is HaSatan.. No mystery there...

muman613

PS: And to you christians out there... The satan is not like your devil. Satan is the heavenly prosecutor who, on judgement day, lists all of your sins before Hashem. Satan is not a separate power from Hashem as angels only do the will of their maker. Actually, the definition of Satan is prosecutor...

http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html
The Christians don't understand how an angel of G-d can try to seduce people to disobey G-d, so they came to the unsupported conclusion that Satan must have rebelled against G-d.

This is completely contrary to everything Judaism believes. We reject that interpretation entirely.

What, then, does Judaism teach about Satan?
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The Hebrew word "Satan" means "Hinderer." To hinder someone means to hold him back, to try to prevent him from doing something. G-d created the Hinderer to give us work to do in this world (see my article Why did G-d Create the World?). Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of Satan. Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.
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Satan is the angel who tempts us, and the angel who prosecutes us in Heaven. He is also the Angel of Death. The angel who tries to make us sin is the same angel who accuses us in the Heavenly Court, and the same angel who carries out the death sentence.

So, no, Satan does not wear a red suit, or carry a trident. Nor does he wear a business suit. Satan is a force of evil in the world that we must resist. Satan most often appears as a desire within you. Of course, there is no shortage of things in the world to tempt us to sin.

From Chabad:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/512017/jewish/Is-there-any-sort-of-Purgatory-or-Satan-in-Jewish-teachings.htm
b) According to Torah, no spiritual force opposes G‑d. This includes Satan, who is a spiritual entity that faithfully carries out its divinely assigned task of trying to seduce people to stumble. Satan is also identified with the Prosecutor above -- that's what the word Satan itself means: it's just Hebrew for prosecutor -- who levels charges against the guilty party who succumbs to its wily arguments. Look in the beginning chapter of the Book of Job and you'll see that clearly.

In fact, the Talmud says, all that Satan does, he does for the sake of heaven. Without him, the defense attorney wouldn't bother to dig up all the merits of the defense. And the defense would have to try so hard to give himself more merits.

So you see that really nothing happens in the entire world without G-d approving. That's why we Jews have so many complaints to him that we need to talk to him three times a day. The buck really stops at His office.

Finally, when the Divine Court decides that someone, G‑d forbid, deserves to die, then Satan is dispatched from Above to carry out the sentence.3

PPS: Maybe Islam is really our prosecutor? But I dont think we deserve this punishment. I just know that without it I would not have done Teshuva {Repentence}.

[AsheDina]

Al Lah- it is in The Tanach, it means evil or satan.

 No this is NOT true. This is the messed up translation that people who do not know the Torah translate (Evanglican's translate is this way). I dont want to defend Muslims, BUT we need to say the truth and not make unnecessary lies and propaganda because when the truth is proven otherwise your case looses credibility all together. So with that said- it is a question in the sense that Muslims are agains't the Jews, so do they really pray and worship the same G-d as Jews or not? - Once again it remains a question, but all the Allah means Satan, and other things like that are NOT true, and are not what Judaism says.  BUT on the other hand what is true about Muslims expecially today is that they are NOT serving G-d properly in what they are doing expecially in the field of Murder. As a whole their organization is involved in Murder (and many in stealing, etc., but its a global thing not only pertained to them) which is very wrong, and absolutly not allowed for them or anyone else in any way, either doing it, or supporting/cheering/being happy about it, etc.

  Well. It WAS worth A TRY...HEY!! I FOUND that HERE on THIS forum what allah means. From HERE. So dont get mad at ME!  I dont know how to translate my way out of a PAPER BAG, much less Torah the HOLY book fercryinoutloud.  Why do some of you HAVE to be RUDE to me? Why is that? WHY?!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

(Evanglican's translate is this way).

Do you mean evangelicals or Anglicans? They are two entirely separate things. Evangelicals are "born-again" Christians who believe in the Bible only. Anglicans are members of the Church of England (generally called Episcopalians in America). Although technically closely related to Catholicism (Henry VIII started this church only because the pope wouldn't grant him a divorce), today it is an insanely liberal denomination that ordains homosexuals, denies the literal truth of Scripture, supports left-wing social causes around the world, etc.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Pauletta I sent you a video explaining it, check your P.M.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

PS: And to you christians out there... The satan is not like your devil. Satan is the heavenly prosecutor who, on judgement day, lists all of your sins before Hashem. Satan is not a separate power from Hashem as angels only do the will of their maker. Actually, the definition of Satan is prosecutor...

Yes, I recall Chaim explaining this, or something like this, once.

[muman613]

Al Lah- it is in The Tanach, it means evil or satan.

 No this is NOT true. This is the messed up translation that people who do not know the Torah translate (Evanglican's translate is this way). I dont want to defend Muslims, BUT we need to say the truth and not make unnecessary lies and propaganda because when the truth is proven otherwise your case looses credibility all together. So with that said- it is a question in the sense that Muslims are agains't the Jews, so do they really pray and worship the same G-d as Jews or not? - Once again it remains a question, but all the Allah means Satan, and other things like that are NOT true, and are not what Judaism says.  BUT on the other hand what is true about Muslims expecially today is that they are NOT serving G-d properly in what they are doing expecially in the field of Murder. As a whole their organization is involved in Murder (and many in stealing, etc., but its a global thing not only pertained to them) which is very wrong, and absolutly not allowed for them or anyone else in any way, either doing it, or supporting/cheering/being happy about it, etc.

  Well. It WAS worth A TRY...HEY!! I FOUND that HERE on THIS forum what allah means. From HERE. So dont get mad at ME!  I dont know how to translate my way out of a PAPER BAG, much less Torah the HOLY book fercryinoutloud.  Why do some of you HAVE to be RUDE to me? Why is that? WHY?!

Paulette,

Im sorry if my response seemed rude. I have spent a good amount of time thinking about Satan and how the concept has been misunderstood. In order to have complete faith in Hashem, who is the absolute power in the universe, there must be no other power which can compare. Ayn Od, there is no other...

muman613

[Dr. Dan]

well technically we are praying to the same god, but we are looking at Him from different glasses. Jews one way, Christians another way, and Muslims another way.

I mean, i can understand how this point of view is unacceptable to many on this forum since to many of us, there is only one way or it's the highway.  In my opinion, there is my way, there is your way, there is his way, and there is their way.  Can't we just get along and understand each other and live peacefully and coexist?

If their answer is yes, then I say, "Cool"

If their answer is "No it's my way or the high way, I'm goign to kill you now," I say, "bring it on!"

[muman613]

well technically we are praying to the same G-d, but we are looking at Him from different glasses. Jews one way, Christians another way, and Muslims another way.

I mean, i can understand how this point of view is unacceptable to many on this forum since to many of us, there is only one way or it's the highway.  In my opinion, there is my way, there is your way, there is his way, and there is their way.  Can't we just get along and understand each other and live peacefully and coexist?

If their answer is yes, then I say, "Cool"

If their answer is "No it's my way or the high way, I'm goign to kill you now," I say, "bring it on!"

Dan,

If its good for you then fine... But I generally dont think that everything is OK. I mean a homosexual obviously thinks his way is the way to be. A person will make God in his own image and this is the absolute opposite way of understanding Judaism. We believe we were made in HIS image, not the other way around... But we let people find this out for themselves...

muman613

[AsheDina]

Well, I believe there is Holy, and there IS UN holy. I believe there is Good and there is evil. "He did EVIL in the sight of G-d" G-d is Holy, and G-d is good. There is no 'evil' in G-d.  And isnt there some passage that says the Wicked over and over, and something about one of G-ds angels being thrown out or something like that? What? people are just evil? All people are just evil, and have zero need for G-d? I dont get it. This is CONFUSING me.  G-d made the Earth, and it is very big, so he must love all peoples on the Earth.

I wasnt referring to you muman.

[Ulli]

I am not 100% shure about this issue, because Allah was in the beginning not identical with God. Actually he was a pagan idol. There are proofs for this i.e. ancient inscriptions found on the arabian peninsula, stories from the sira and finally statements in the book of idols. Also remember the ancient rituals of the hadsch at the pagan past.

But the Quran has a lot of twisted statements of Christianity and Judaism in it. The quranimal of today really believes that he is praying to God. I don't think it thinks about the past of Allah or his daughters.

I have no proof that Allah is identical with the "Diabolos" or the Satan. I have found nowhere reliable sources for this. Only if you see all ancient idols as devils, this would make a little bit sense.

[Dr. Dan]

well technically we are praying to the same G-d, but we are looking at Him from different glasses. Jews one way, Christians another way, and Muslims another way.

I mean, i can understand how this point of view is unacceptable to many on this forum since to many of us, there is only one way or it's the highway.  In my opinion, there is my way, there is your way, there is his way, and there is their way.  Can't we just get along and understand each other and live peacefully and coexist?

If their answer is yes, then I say, "Cool"

If their answer is "No it's my way or the high way, I'm goign to kill you now," I say, "bring it on!"

Dan,

If its good for you then fine... But I generally dont think that everything is OK. I mean a homosexual obviously thinks his way is the way to be. A person will make G-d in his own image and this is the absolute opposite way of understanding Judaism. We believe we were made in HIS image, not the other way around... But we let people find this out for themselves...

muman613

We are talking about religion, not sexual things.  Some people make up a religion to suit them.  I say, what matters to me most is that they are merciful, good to others, and walk with Gd.  The rest, with those who are intelligent and well meaning, is theology.  I believe that we, Jews, have the right idea; we ask questions and learn and study and hope for the best.  We also try to love everybody.  

I will worry about how I serve Gd. I'm not perfect.  And I will worry about how I treat others. I'm not perfect. I hope everybody else does the same with good intentions.

Unfortunately, jealousy exists.  Many people wake up with bad moods.  Sometimes due to hunger, and therefore a low blood sugar count, they are irritable and drive aggressively and cut someone else off on the road thereby [censored] him off and leading to a chain reaction of more pissed off people.  And a happy soothing person can possibly have the opposite effect. Saying hello to a stranger kind of helps.

Anyway, no Jew nor gentile knows Gd that well.  If we all can understand that we don't have all the right answers but know that we have to decent to one antoher and listen and even agree to disagree for those heated disputes and disagreements, then we are in the making of a better world.

Except we need to be ready to fight back for those who wish to destroy that harmony and who prey on the weak and influence the young to do murderous things.  We need to be defenders of righteous things.

[muman613]

Well, I believe there is Holy, and there IS UN holy. I believe there is Good and there is evil. "He did EVIL in the sight of G-d" G-d is Holy, and G-d is good. There is no 'evil' in G-d.  And isnt there some passage that says the Wicked over and over, and something about one of G-ds angels being thrown out or something like that? What? people are just evil? All people are just evil, and have zero need for G-d? I dont get it. This is CONFUSING me.  G-d made the Earth, and it is very big, so he must love all peoples on the Earth.

I wasnt referring to you muman.

Paulette,

I cannot explain this to you myself. But I believe if you are interested in the Jewish understanding of Good and Evil you can research it for yourself. Evil was CREATED BY HASHEM for a purpose. The purpose of EVIL is to teach humanity the way of GOOD. We are creatures who live in a physical and limited world. Hashem is a 'being' who exists without time and without end. We cannot really understand the nature of what is GOOD and EVIL because we live within the system and dont have a view of the BIG PICTURE. What may seem EVIL now will be revealed in 1000 years to have been for the good.

One example is the story of Purim. The king had ordained that ALL JEWS MUST BE EXTERMINATED. And in his day, all Jews, MEANT ALL 100% JEWS IN THE WORLD. The Kings power extended from one side of the world to the other {255 Provinces}. At the time this seemed like the ultimate evil. But because of the mysterious working of DIVINE PROVIDENCE {Hashgacha Pratis} the Jews {who were vastly outnumbered} were able to turn it around and HANG HAMAN {Cursed is the name}.

Our history is full of examples of how evil is somehow turned into good. It is hard to understand because we have needs , wants, and desires, which often conflict and cause us to make wrong decisions. This is how Satan works.

Here is a great link which spreads some light on the Kabbalistic understanding of Evil and Good:

http://www.jewishmag.com/120mag/good-evil/good-evil.htm
The term "free will" has been used extensively in philosophic and theological works. It is usually assumed that the meaning of the term is clear, but, in truth, the term is often used in different ways, depending on the user and the context. Therefore, it should be helpful to clarify what is meant by "free will" in our discussions here.

Firstly, free will implies that there is no external constraint on what is willed. Secondly, it also means that there is no internal compulsion. Nevertheless, even if the prior two conditions are met, there still remains an impediment to total free will.

A person does not create himself, nor does he create his environment. The person that supposedly has total free will is not truly responsible for what he is at the moment that he exercises his free will. What he is is not his doing alone, but results from the actions of God, who provided both his body and his environment.

The difficulty of assigning ultimate responsibility to humans for their deeds is a major problem for theology and will not be solved here. People are never truly independent of their maker, who is the root of all things. However, the fact that God is the root of man, perhaps is what provided the impression (risheemu) that remained after the light was evacuated from the center of the Ein-Sof. Ultimately, even after the creation of the empty global area, God remains in charge.

Evil is thus an illusionary phenomenon, just like man's total free will. Both are limited, and ultimately God's beneficence lies hidden behind both.

[AsheDina]

   Well, I just dont GET IT.. I will stick with what I believe, I believe there is DEF an evil force- DEF.
 If this makes me wrong then I am just wrong.
  The EVIL that has been committed against Jews DEF. makes me 100% BELIEVE that people get filled with something evil.  I also believe that since the Chrstians say "The G-d of Israel" then they ARE talking about the same one. Maybe I am too open, but thats how I see it, BUT I NEVER said I was an authority.

[Dr. Dan]

Well, I believe there is Holy, and there IS UN holy. I believe there is Good and there is evil. "He did EVIL in the sight of G-d" G-d is Holy, and G-d is good. There is no 'evil' in G-d.  And isnt there some passage that says the Wicked over and over, and something about one of G-ds angels being thrown out or something like that? What? people are just evil? All people are just evil, and have zero need for G-d? I dont get it. This is CONFUSING me.  G-d made the Earth, and it is very big, so he must love all peoples on the Earth.

I wasnt referring to you muman.

Paulette,

I cannot explain this to you myself. But I believe if you are interested in the Jewish understanding of Good and Evil you can research it for yourself. Evil was CREATED BY HASHEM for a purpose. The purpose of EVIL is to teach humanity the way of GOOD. We are creatures who live in a physical and limited world. Hashem is a 'being' who exists without time and without end. We cannot really understand the nature of what is GOOD and EVIL because we live within the system and dont have a view of the BIG PICTURE. What may seem EVIL now will be revealed in 1000 years to have been for the good.

One example is the story of Purim. The king had ordained that ALL JEWS MUST BE EXTERMINATED. And in his day, all Jews, MEANT ALL 100% JEWS IN THE WORLD. The Kings power extended from one side of the world to the other {255 Provinces}. At the time this seemed like the ultimate evil. But because of the mysterious working of DIVINE PROVIDENCE {Hashgacha Pratis} the Jews {who were vastly outnumbered} were able to turn it around and HANG HAMAN {Cursed is the name}.

Our history is full of examples of how evil is somehow turned into good. It is hard to understand because we have needs , wants, and desires, which often conflict and cause us to make wrong decisions. This is how Satan works.

Here is a great link which spreads some light on the Kabbalistic understanding of Evil and Good:

http://www.jewishmag.com/120mag/good-evil/good-evil.htm
The term "free will" has been used extensively in philosophic and theological works. It is usually assumed that the meaning of the term is clear, but, in truth, the term is often used in different ways, depending on the user and the context. Therefore, it should be helpful to clarify what is meant by "free will" in our discussions here.

Firstly, free will implies that there is no external constraint on what is willed. Secondly, it also means that there is no internal compulsion. Nevertheless, even if the prior two conditions are met, there still remains an impediment to total free will.

A person does not create himself, nor does he create his environment. The person that supposedly has total free will is not truly responsible for what he is at the moment that he exercises his free will. What he is is not his doing alone, but results from the actions of G-d, who provided both his body and his environment.

The difficulty of assigning ultimate responsibility to humans for their deeds is a major problem for theology and will not be solved here. People are never truly independent of their maker, who is the root of all things. However, the fact that G-d is the root of man, perhaps is what provided the impression (risheemu) that remained after the light was evacuated from the center of the Ein-Sof. Ultimately, even after the creation of the empty global area, G-d remains in charge.

Evil is thus an illusionary phenomenon, just like man's total free will. Both are limited, and ultimately G-d's beneficence lies hidden behind both.

really awesome post!

[muman613]

Shalom,

I will reproduce Rabbi Tovia Singers response to a question concerning HaSatan. I love Rabbi Singers anti-missionary work and listen to him on IsraelNationalNews almost every day.

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/satan.html
Who Is Satan?
         
Question:

Dear Rabbi Singer:

When you were in Buffalo, NY in November of  '96, during the extended question and answer time, you were asked your view on angels and specifically about Satan.  I was astounded at your answer and was more astounded that the other rabbis present did not step into the discussion.

In your explanation of Satan and other fallen angels you attributed the creation of evil to G-d thus making Him responsible for evil.  There are at least 87 references to G-d's holiness in Leviticus alone!  In 11:44 G-d says, "I AM HOLY."  Is not holiness the absence of sin?  There are many scriptures to prove that G-d hates sin (evil), that He cannot tolerate evil in His presence.  How, then, can you attribute evil to G-d?  I am interested in the Biblical support for your statement.

I have a fair understanding of Judaism and have found nothing in all of my reading to support your view as traditional.

Awaiting your reply.

A seeker after truth

Answer:

The rabbis to whom you made reference have spent their entire lives immersed in the study of the Jewish scriptures as well as other sacred Jewish literature and were, therefore, not "astounded" by the Judaism that was taught in Buffalo that evening, as you were.

Why weren't the rabbis stunned by these Jewish teachings on Satan?  Because the Hebrew scriptures explicitly declare that the Almighty Himself places both the good and the evil that He created before mankind in order to provide His prime creation with free will.  Deuteronomy 30:15 states,

See, I [G-d] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.

In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet describes G-d's creation plan when he reports that,

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

I did not invent these verses, nor did I tamper with them.  In fact, the Bible I used in the above quotations is the King James Version, which is a translation that could hardly be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith.

These edifying verses underscore the fundamental biblical teaching that it is the perfect spiritual balance of good and evil in the world that confronts every searching soul.  This is the Almighty's divine sovereign plan for creation: It is through man's personal decision to turn away from evil and choose good that virtue can be attained.

Isaiah 45:7 and Deuteronomy 30:15, however, pose a serious theological problem for Christians who maintain that G-d did not create Satan, the angel of evil.  According to Christian doctrine, Satan was the highest-ranking angel who, through his own act of spiritual defiance and outright disobedience, became the chief adversary and slanderer of G-d and the embodiment of evil in this world.  In Christian theology G-d never created evil; He is only the author of righteousness and perfection, as you maintained in your question.  Therefore, G-d could never create something as sinister as the devil himself.  Rather, Satan's unyielding wickedness is the result of his own spiritual rebellion.

[SENTENCE REMOVED].  In fact, the Christian teaching that Satan was originally intended by G-d to be a good angel but, in an act of outright defiance, ceased to function as G-d had intended him to, suggests that G-d created something imperfect or defective.

For the Jewish faith, Satan's purpose in seducing man away from G-d poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of G-d.  As a servant of the Almighty, Satan faithfully carries out the divine will of his Creator as he does in all his tasks.

Satan is one of the many angels mentioned in the Bible.  It is worth noting that the Hebrew word for angel is malach, meaning "messenger."  The same is true for the English word angel, derived from the Greek word angelos, which also means "messenger."  Throughout the Bible, an angel is a messenger of G-d who carries out the divine will of the Almighty.  There is not one example in the Jewish scriptures where any angel, Satan included, opposes G-d's will.

In no part of the Bible is this more evident than in the Book of Job.  In the first chapter of Job, Satan appears with other angels before G-d and suggests that Job's steadfast faithfulness would not withstand personal pain and utter destitution.  Satan then requests from G-d the chance to test Job's virtue.  The Almighty grants this request, but He meticulously outlines for Satan what he may and may not do when putting Job to the test.  Satan obediently follows his Creator's instructions.  Job is immediately put to the test and, by the third chapter, begins to struggle.  He questions his Maker as to why he was created and, in a moment of despair, wishes aloud that he had perished in his mother's womb.  Still, by the end of this unparalleled biblical narrative, Job's virtue prevails over Satan's unyielding torment.

While in Christian terms Job's personal spiritual triumph is a theological impossibility, in Jewish terms it stands out as the embodiment of G-d's salvation program for mankind.  In Deuteronomy 30:15, the Torah attests to this principle and in Isaiah 45:7, the prophet echoes this message when he declares that the Almighty Himself creates evil.

This biblical principle, however, was apparently too problematic for the Christian translators of the NIV Bible (New International Version).  They clearly recognized that a Bible which asserts that G-d creates evil calls into question one of Christendom's most cherished teachings on salvation.  How can the church insist that man is totally depraved when his G-d placed him in a world where he is free to choose good over evil?  How can the church hold to a doctrine of election or predestination when free will is man's to express?  How can Christians maintain that G-d did not create evil when the Jewish scriptures clearly state otherwise?

Understandably, the NIV translators saw fit to alter the prophet's words by rendering the offensive Hebrew word rah as "disaster" instead of correctly translating it as "bad" or "evil."  The NIV Bible therefore mistranslates Isaiah 45:7 to read,

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

The word "disaster" inserted by the NIV is so ambiguous that the uninformed reader would easily come to the conclusion that it refers to such things as earthquakes and hurricanes.  This skewed understanding created by the NIV mistranslation effectively conceals Isaiah's original message.  As mentioned above, the KJV (King James Version) does correctly translate this verse and render the Hebrew word rah as "evil."

One final point is in order here.  Christians often point to Isaiah 14:12 as a biblical reference to support their teachings of the final and complete downfall of Satan which brings to an end the long and otherwise successful career of this fallen angel.  They argue that Isaiah's mention of the fallen "morning star" refers to Satan's ultimate demise at the end of time when Satan will finally be cast into a lake of fire as articulated in the twentieth chapter of the Book of Revelation.

There are, however, two serious problems with this assertion.  First, if Christians maintain that the "morning star" is a reference to Satan, how do they explain Revelation 22:16 where Jesus is called the "morning star" as well?  Secondly, a cursory reading of the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah reveals that the "morning star" spoken of in Isaiah 14:12 is referring to Nebuchadnessar, the wicked King of Babylon, and not to Satan.  In 14:4 the prophet explicitly names the king of Babylon as the subject of the prophecy.

That thou shall take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased, the golden city ceased!

Throughout this chapter and the preceding chapter of Isaiah, the prophet foretells the rise and fall of this arrogant king who would use his unbridled power to plunder Jerusalem and destroy its Temple but, at the end, would suffer a cataclysmic downfall.  In 14:12 Nebuchadnezzar is compared to the planet Venus whose light is still visible in the morning yet vanishes with the rise of the sun.  Like the light of Venus, Nebuchadnezzar's reign shone brilliantly for a short time, yet, as the prophets foretold, was eventually overshadowed by the nation of Israel whose light endured and outlived this arrogant nation who tormented and exiled her.

Yours,

Rabbi Tovia Singer

PS: Im sorry for dragging this Satan/Good/Evil discussion on... I realize it was not the original intention of this topic...

[AsheDina]

No, muman its ok.
I am on a need to know basis, I need to know. I cant pull rabbits out of hats, and pretend that this is the way it is, if G-d says different- THX for the read, I am going out, and will bbl to read it.

[GoIsraelGo!]

Shalom,

I will reproduce Rabbi Tovia Singers response to a question concerning HaSatan. I love Rabbi Singers anti-missionary work and listen to him on IsraelNationalNews almost every day.

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/satan.html
Who Is Satan?
         
Question:

Dear Rabbi Singer:

When you were in Buffalo, NY in November of  '96, during the extended question and answer time, you were asked your view on angels and specifically about Satan.  I was astounded at your answer and was more astounded that the other rabbis present did not step into the discussion.

In your explanation of Satan and other fallen angels you attributed the creation of evil to G-d thus making Him responsible for evil.  There are at least 87 references to G-d's holiness in Leviticus alone!  In 11:44 G-d says, "I AM HOLY."  Is not holiness the absence of sin?  There are many scriptures to prove that G-d hates sin (evil), that He cannot tolerate evil in His presence.  How, then, can you attribute evil to G-d?  I am interested in the Biblical support for your statement.

I have a fair understanding of Judaism and have found nothing in all of my reading to support your view as traditional.

Awaiting your reply.

A seeker after truth

Answer:

The rabbis to whom you made reference have spent their entire lives immersed in the study of the Jewish scriptures as well as other sacred Jewish literature and were, therefore, not "astounded" by the Judaism that was taught in Buffalo that evening, as you were.

Why weren't the rabbis stunned by these Jewish teachings on Satan?  Because the Hebrew scriptures explicitly declare that the Almighty Himself places both the good and the evil that He created before mankind in order to provide His prime creation with free will.  Deuteronomy 30:15 states,

See, I [G-d] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.

In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet describes G-d's creation plan when he reports that,

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

I did not invent these verses, nor did I tamper with them.  In fact, the Bible I used in the above quotations is the King James Version, which is a translation that could hardly be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith.

These edifying verses underscore the fundamental biblical teaching that it is the perfect spiritual balance of good and evil in the world that confronts every searching soul.  This is the Almighty's divine sovereign plan for creation: It is through man's personal decision to turn away from evil and choose good that virtue can be attained.

Isaiah 45:7 and Deuteronomy 30:15, however, pose a serious theological problem for Christians who maintain that G-d did not create Satan, the angel of evil.  According to Christian doctrine, Satan was the highest-ranking angel who, through his own act of spiritual defiance and outright disobedience, became the chief adversary and slanderer of G-d and the embodiment of evil in this world.  In Christian theology G-d never created evil; He is only the author of righteousness and perfection, as you maintained in your question.  Therefore, G-d could never create something as sinister as the devil himself.  Rather, Satan's unyielding wickedness is the result of his own spiritual rebellion.

[SENTENCE REMOVED].  In fact, the Christian teaching that Satan was originally intended by G-d to be a good angel but, in an act of outright defiance, ceased to function as G-d had intended him to, suggests that G-d created something imperfect or defective.

For the Jewish faith, Satan's purpose in seducing man away from G-d poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of G-d.  As a servant of the Almighty, Satan faithfully carries out the divine will of his Creator as he does in all his tasks.

Satan is one of the many angels mentioned in the Bible.  It is worth noting that the Hebrew word for angel is malach, meaning "messenger."  The same is true for the English word angel, derived from the Greek word angelos, which also means "messenger."  Throughout the Bible, an angel is a messenger of G-d who carries out the divine will of the Almighty.  There is not one example in the Jewish scriptures where any angel, Satan included, opposes G-d's will.

In no part of the Bible is this more evident than in the Book of Job.  In the first chapter of Job, Satan appears with other angels before G-d and suggests that Job's steadfast faithfulness would not withstand personal pain and utter destitution.  Satan then requests from G-d the chance to test Job's virtue.  The Almighty grants this request, but He meticulously outlines for Satan what he may and may not do when putting Job to the test.  Satan obediently follows his Creator's instructions.  Job is immediately put to the test and, by the third chapter, begins to struggle.  He questions his Maker as to why he was created and, in a moment of despair, wishes aloud that he had perished in his mother's womb.  Still, by the end of this unparalleled biblical narrative, Job's virtue prevails over Satan's unyielding torment.

While in Christian terms Job's personal spiritual triumph is a theological impossibility, in Jewish terms it stands out as the embodiment of G-d's salvation program for mankind.  In Deuteronomy 30:15, the Torah attests to this principle and in Isaiah 45:7, the prophet echoes this message when he declares that the Almighty Himself creates evil.

This biblical principle, however, was apparently too problematic for the Christian translators of the NIV Bible (New International Version).  They clearly recognized that a Bible which asserts that G-d creates evil calls into question one of Christendom's most cherished teachings on salvation.  How can the church insist that man is totally depraved when his G-d placed him in a world where he is free to choose good over evil?  How can the church hold to a doctrine of election or predestination when free will is man's to express?  How can Christians maintain that G-d did not create evil when the Jewish scriptures clearly state otherwise?

Understandably, the NIV translators saw fit to alter the prophet's words by rendering the offensive Hebrew word rah as "disaster" instead of correctly translating it as "bad" or "evil."  The NIV Bible therefore mistranslates Isaiah 45:7 to read,

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

The word "disaster" inserted by the NIV is so ambiguous that the uninformed reader would easily come to the conclusion that it refers to such things as earthquakes and hurricanes.  This skewed understanding created by the NIV mistranslation effectively conceals Isaiah's original message.  As mentioned above, the KJV (King James Version) does correctly translate this verse and render the Hebrew word rah as "evil."

One final point is in order here.  Christians often point to Isaiah 14:12 as a biblical reference to support their teachings of the final and complete downfall of Satan which brings to an end the long and otherwise successful career of this fallen angel.  They argue that Isaiah's mention of the fallen "morning star" refers to Satan's ultimate demise at the end of time when Satan will finally be cast into a lake of fire as articulated in the twentieth chapter of the Book of Revelation.

There are, however, two serious problems with this assertion.  First, if Christians maintain that the "morning star" is a reference to Satan, how do they explain Revelation 22:16 where Jesus is called the "morning star" as well?  Secondly, a cursory reading of the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah reveals that the "morning star" spoken of in Isaiah 14:12 is referring to Nebuchadnessar, the wicked King of Babylon, and not to Satan.  In 14:4 the prophet explicitly names the king of Babylon as the subject of the prophecy.

That thou shall take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased, the golden city ceased!

Throughout this chapter and the preceding chapter of Isaiah, the prophet foretells the rise and fall of this arrogant king who would use his unbridled power to plunder Jerusalem and destroy its Temple but, at the end, would suffer a cataclysmic downfall.  In 14:12 Nebuchadnezzar is compared to the planet Venus whose light is still visible in the morning yet vanishes with the rise of the sun.  Like the light of Venus, Nebuchadnezzar's reign shone brilliantly for a short time, yet, as the prophets foretold, was eventually overshadowed by the nation of Israel whose light endured and outlived this arrogant nation who tormented and exiled her.

Yours,

Rabbi Tovia Singer

PS: Im sorry for dragging this Satan/Good/Evil discussion on... I realize it was not the original intention of this topic...

Shalom Muman, please do not apologise. I think most of us here want to read and learn, especially since some of us are not scholars or Rabbis.
This was very interesting and informative. Personally I see Satan as the grandaddy of all dybbuks and Satan gets to people through their own free will.
G-d told Satan, you may have those who follow you. This comes down to the free will of men / women who choose to do evil acts.
I can give a tiny example ....if I may please ...of how Satan is tormenting me and how G-d is testing me. I have a doxie who is 11 years old. She has been paralyzed for 6 years...while she feels no pain in her hind legs and she is happy go lucky, she is a burden to me for the 24/7 care I give her. I help her up and down, help with everything and she barks a lot, is demanding and sometimes a real trouble maker despite her paralysis. Sometimes I cry and am exhausted from the 24/7 job of caring for her and I want to put her to sleep. My dilema is this: is it fair I put her down because she is a burden for me? Satan would like me to give in to the temptation of ' easing my burden ' but I cannot do this. I will be burdened until she dies a natural death. I love her despite the burden and I think G-d wants me to care for her until she dies naturally. I hope more people deal with their burdens and know that there is a reason for those burdens, G-d wants us to endure despite anything that comes our way.
Thank you for letting me share my thoughts and I am sorry this was off topic also.

                                                                                      Shalom from Dox   
                                                                           

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I haven't read everything (expecially in the end) so maybe Mom alsoready mentioned it but if not-
 The Jewish view of Satan is simple- he is an angel and as an angel is a messenger of G-d. he has his role to play and his job. He does not have great power and might, and is not agains't G-d. Infact this whole misconception origionalls stems from pagan ideas and the way that pagan idols were thought of to be- to have their own powe and might, etc, and being completly seperate entities. We (the Jewish people and Religion) believe that G-d is One and His name is One, their is no G-d but Hashe-m and their is no power that runs everything but G-d.

[muman613]

Hi Dox,

Yes, this is a good example of the tests and tribulations which we go though. It is very good you have decided to take care of your companion and not give in to the temptation to make your life easier at the expense of another. I know how you feel as I had a dilemma with one of my cats which became sick last year. The halacha of Judaism is mainly concerned with human life but we must be kind to our animals.

Shalom and have a wonderful Shabbat...

muman613

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Al Lah- it is in The Tanach, it means evil or satan.

 No this is NOT true. This is the messed up translation that people who do not know the Torah translate (Evanglican's translate is this way). I dont want to defend Muslims, BUT we need to say the truth and not make unnecessary lies and propaganda because when the truth is proven otherwise your case looses credibility all together. So with that said- it is a question in the sense that Muslims are agains't the Jews, so do they really pray and worship the same G-d as Jews or not? - Once again it remains a question, but all the Allah means Satan, and other things like that are NOT true, and are not what Judaism says.  BUT on the other hand what is true about Muslims expecially today is that they are NOT serving G-d properly in what they are doing expecially in the field of Murder. As a whole their organization is involved in Murder (and many in stealing, etc., but its a global thing not only pertained to them) which is very wrong, and absolutly not allowed for them or anyone else in any way, either doing it, or supporting/cheering/being happy about it, etc.

Tzvi, Muslims do not believe in a G-d that made a convenant with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.   They are praying to a fictitious "god" who gave a covenant through "Ishmael" and who replaced Torah with "koran" because the Jews deceived this supposed "god"  (not omnicient huh), by changing his Torah around.    If that is what Muslims believe in, sorry bud, it's not Hashem.    Hashem had a prophet who was exalted over all the rest- his name was Moses, not Muhammad.    Muslims practically deify muhammad.   And they believe in some other "god" named allah whose #1 prophet was Mohamed (who happens to be a false prophet).

Out of all the things Paulette said, you picked this to complain about?     Look at what she writes in her statement :

but the Torah which is included in your bible, is all messed up

Nonsense.   But you object to saying Muslims worship a false god and not this, tzvi?

[GoIsraelGo!]

Hi Dox,

Yes, this is a good example of the tests and tribulations which we go though. It is very good you have decided to take care of your companion and not give in to the temptation to make your life easier at the expense of another. I know how you feel as I had a dilemma with one of my cats which became sick last year. The halacha of Judaism is mainly concerned with human life but we must be kind to our animals.

Shalom and have a wonderful Shabbat...

muman613

Shalom again Muman, thank you for your kind reply. I am sorry about your cat...my cat died 2 years ago and she lived 18 years.

                                                                   I wish you a Good Shabbos too ... Dox