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muman613:
--- Quote from: Christian Zionist on December 09, 2009, 07:10:04 PM ---Shalom Muman!
How popular is Menachim Meiri's interpretation of Halacha in the Orthodox community?
Meiri was the only Halachic arbitrator who qualified Christians as righteous gentiles, didn't he?
Thanks!
CZ
--- End quote ---
Shalom CZ,
Good question... Until you mentioned this sage I had no idea who he was.... Here is what I can find out about him:
--- Quote ---http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/meiri.htm
Rabbi Menachem ben Solomon Meiri
(1249-1316)
Rabbi Menachem ben Solomon Meiri was a Provincial scholar and commentator of the Talmud. He summarized the teachings of his predecessors of the previous three centuries. His literary activity covered halachic rulings, talmudic exposition, biblical thought, customs, ethics, and philosophy. Meiri summarized the subject matter of the Talmud giving both the meaning and the halacha derived from it. He utilized all the rabbinic literature available to him, so that his work may be considered a digest which gives a synoptic and comprehensive presentation of the whole expository and halachic activity up to his own time.
--- End quote ---
It appears he lived during some very interesting times for the Jewish people. He lived during the seventh through the ninth Crusades {according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades }. If what you are saying is true it would make him such a Saint I cannot imagine...
What I do see is that Rabbi Meiri says that those who obey the Seven Noachide laws are considered Righteous Gentiles which is a basic Jewish belief... The Gentile nations are considered righteous if they obey these seven basic laws...
--- Quote ---http://www.ots.org.il/Parasha/5763/vaetchanan63.htm
Our prophets never demanded universal conversion to Judaism. Indeed, the prophet Micah describes the “end of times” as a period when “nation will not lift up sword against nation and humanity will not learn war anymore… for all the peoples will go forth each person in the name of his/her G-d, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our G-d forever”(Micha 4:3-5). What the Torah does demand of us is to influence humanity to convert to the seven Noahide commands (Not to murder, Not to steal,Not to commit adultery, Not to eat the limb of a living animal, Not to blaspheme G-d, Not to serve idols, and to establish a Judicial System -Maimonides, Laws of Kings, Chapter 8). The prohibition against idolatry,at least according to the great Sage and decisor Rav Menachem Meiri, is not a theological statement but is rather a morality statement - against the wicked, despotic and heinous actions performed by the idolaters(Jacob Katz, Exclusivism and Tolerance , Chapter on the Meiri). And so King Solomon, when he dedicates the Holy Temple, asks the Almighty to accept the offerings of the Gentile (Kings 1,8:41-43), and this is accepted Talmudic law (B.T. Menahot 73b, Hullin 13b, Zevahim 45a).
--- End quote ---
Once again Idolatry is expressly forbidden and it should be clear that from a Jewish perspective those who follow Christianity can be considered Idolators. But as I said before the Jewish view is that non-Jews who obey the Seven Noachide laws, which establish moral codes, are counted amongst the righteous of this world and have a place in the world to come...
References:
http://www.ou.org/torah/tt/5765/vaetchanan65/specialfeatures_jewishlaw.htm
Rabbi Meiris Channukah Halachic decision
--- Quote ---http://vbm-torah.org/archive/moadim69/10-69moed.htm
The Gemara, however, refutes Ravina’s inference, and the Rishonim disagree as to whether the halakha nevertheless follows Ravina. Many, including the Rif and the Rambam, omit this height requirement entirely. Rabbi Menachem Meiri (Provence; 1249 –1310) goes even further, claiming that one should actually light the Chanuka candles higher than ten tefachim, in order to maximize the pirsumei nisa. Furthermore, the Ritva (21b) observes the common practice to light above ten tefachim, possibly because people generally lit inside, and therefore the halakhic details intended to increase pirsumei nisa are not applicable (see also Mordechai, Shabbat 266). Others, however, cite Ravina’s ruling, and hold that preferably the lights should be situated below the height of ten tefachim.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---http://www.jewishideas.org/articles/how-not-make-halakhic-rulings
The third approach sees a change in the actual status of Christianity. The fourteenth century Provençal authority, R. Menachem Meiri, creates a new distinction between nations that are law abiding and those that are not, i.e. that have positive ethical values, and a legal system to enforce them, and those that do not. He describes the idolatrous nations to which he believes the Talmud is referring as follows (Beit ha-Behirah, Avodah Zarah, ed. A. Sofer, Jerusalem 1944, p.48, of pp. 3.28, 33, 46, 53):
They are polluted in their practices and disgusting in their moral traits... But the other nations which are law-abiding, and which are free of these disgusting moral traits and, moreover, punish people with these traits - there is no doubt that these laws do not apply to them at all.
Thus, while for Maimonides, for example, it is the object of worship, the theology, that defines worship as idolatrous, for Meiri it is the life style that is the deciding factor (see M. Halbertal and Avishai Margalit, Idolatry, Cambridge Mass., 1992, pp.212-213;Y. Katz, Zion 1953. pp.15-30 etc.). Hence, according to the Meiri there should be no prohibition to entering into a church, and certainly not an Episcopalian one which is virtually bereft of images.
Furthermore, there are differences of opinion among the early authorities as to whether trinitarianism is forbidden to gentiles. Clearly Jews are not permitted to believe in any form of "partnership" (shituf) between G-d and other divine entities. Our G-d is a single unitary G-d. But are gentiles permitted to believe that alongside G-d there are other (subservient ? related?) divinities? Maimonides clearly is of the opinion that this is absolutely forbidden for gentiles too, since this is real idolatry, (Hilkhot Avodah Zarah chapters 1, 2).
--- End quote ---
Boyana:
Shalom Muman,
What is Lashon Hara?I know it is jewish law of telling gossip?
But is it gossip,say I talk to my mother(she likes to know just everything,no escape)and I may say
something about somebody negative?
Regards
Christian Zionist:
--- Quote from: Christian Zionist on December 09, 2009, 07:10:04 PM ---Shalom Muman!
How popular is Menachim Meiri's interpretation of Halacha in the Orthodox community?
Meiri was the only Halachic arbitrator who qualified Christians as righteous gentiles, didn't he?
Thanks!
CZ
--- End quote ---
Shalom Muman!
Can you please review this website and get back to me?
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/meiri.cfm
From what I understand Menachem Meiri was the only Halachic arbitrator to give "righteous gentile" status for Christians and stated that Christians also can go to heaven.
Thanks!
CZ
muman613:
--- Quote from: Christian Zionist on January 11, 2010, 09:30:02 PM ---
--- Quote from: Christian Zionist on December 09, 2009, 07:10:04 PM ---Shalom Muman!
How popular is Menachim Meiri's interpretation of Halacha in the Orthodox community?
Meiri was the only Halachic arbitrator who qualified Christians as righteous gentiles, didn't he?
Thanks!
CZ
--- End quote ---
Shalom Muman!
Can you please review this website and get back to me?
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/meiri.cfm
From what I understand Menachem Meiri was the only Halachic arbitrator to give "righteous gentile" status for Christians and stated that Christians also can go to heaven.
Thanks!
CZ
--- End quote ---
Hello CZ,
My initial impression of that site is that it is not kosher. The whole 'mission statement' of that website is to discredit creationism, and religious apologetics {whatever that means}
--- Quote ---TalkReason provides a forum for the publication of papers with well-thought out arguments against creationism, intelligent design, and religious apologetics.
--- End quote ---
Secondly some of the representations of the facts concerning the Mishnahs of the Talmud which I wanted to investigate were wrong. They did not properly attribute the quotations and the footnotes do not contain the tractate which it is supposedly quoted from.
I had questions about one of the supposed facts which claimed that a Jewess cannot breastfeed a gentile baby.... I have learned a Midrash which says that Sarah Immeinu {our mother} infact breastfeed many gentile babies after Yitzak was born. This is used as one explanation why non-Jews may want to convert to Judaism, because their souls descended from those who breastfed from Sarah.
I have already expressed my opinion of Rabbi Meiri's position. But I believe that in general the reasons for the Talmud discussing one opinion and another doesn't necessarily mean that this is the Halacha. Halacha is determined on a case by case basis and some of what is mentioned in that article is simply a misrepresentation of what Halachas I know {admittedly not a whole lot in the big picture}.
PS: I have never heard it said that Christians dont go to heaven... But the issue of idolatry and false worship is a major issue in the Torah... Ultimately Hashem will judge each case individually.
Rubystars:
--- Quote from: muman613 on January 12, 2010, 01:46:30 AM ---PS: I have never heard it said that Christians dont go to heaven... But the issue of idolatry and false worship is a major issue in the Torah... Ultimately Hashem will judge each case individually.
--- End quote ---
I don't even think all "Christians" are going to heaven. There is a concept in Christianity called the visible church and invisible church. The visible church includes all people who claim Christianity, including such horrible people as Barack Hussein Obama, Bill Clinton, Al Sharpton, etc. Of course the visible church would also include all the good people who openly claim Christianity.
There is also the concept of the invisible church. The invisible church are what would be considered "true Christians", in the eyes of God. They are the ones who are true to the faith and follow God's commandments and truly love God.
It's sometimes not easy to tell who is part of this invisible church, because it's invisible, only God truly knows people's hearts. Someone who looks very pious and loving could in his or her heart totally reject God. On the other hand, sometimes it's very easy to tell when someone is not part of it.
This is what we often mean when we say that someone like Obama is not a "real Christian". He couldn't be, with his horrible beliefs.
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