PALIN DAUGHTER PREGNANT TO MARRY FATHER

[Americanhero1]

So what the Daughter was knocked up at lest the guy is doing the right thing and marrying her

[DownwithIslam]

  it's true

Alf is as handsome as ever. I wouldn't mind a thread full of pictures of alf. I hope you can make that happen mord.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

An unwed parent in this day and age is not unusual. I don't condone it, but it happens unfortunately. What I do have a problem with is: Have you ever seen her kids names? THAT is cause for alarm!

Frank Zappa named his son Dweezil and his daughter Moon Unit, so I think he set the bar for ridiculous names.

[Americanhero1]

An unwed parent in this day and age is not unusual. I don't condone it, but it happens unfortunately. What I do have a problem with is: Have you ever seen her kids names? THAT is cause for alarm!

Frank Zappa named his son Dweezil and his daughter Moon Unit, so I think he set the bar for rediculous names.

Thats what happens when you smoke to much pot

[P J C]

Not a good thing

[zachor_ve_kavod]

An unwed parent in this day and age is not unusual. I don't condone it, but it happens unfortunately. What I do have a problem with is: Have you ever seen her kids names? THAT is cause for alarm!

Frank Zappa named his son Dweezil and his daughter Moon Unit, so I think he set the bar for rediculous names.

Thats what happens when you smoke to much pot

Believe it or not, Zappa was an outspoken critic of drug and alcohol abuse.

[Masha]

  So what if her daughter is pregnant??? Will her Daughter be PM? or what?

So, I guess, she didn't have time to be such a model mother while being a politician if she allowed her unmarried 17-year old daughter to get pregnant. It also means that her daughter will not have time to help her raise Trig while she will (hopefully) be VP.

[Masha]

Lawrence Auster from the View from the Right wrote:

Furthermore, is it not a reasonable guess that if Palin had not been consumed with her political career and had had more time for her children, 17 year old Bristol might not have gotten pregnant? And does not the fact that Palin's high school daughter got pregnant reflect on Palin's credentials as a Christian conservative parent and political leader?

I mean, come on, my fellow traditionalists, the Palin family has issues.

My thoughts exactly.

[Lisa]

I saw Auster's post. 

But at least the young couple is getting married.  Remember that Todd Palin was Sarah's childhood sweatheart, and the two of them eloped. 

[Gruzinit]

  So what if her daughter is pregnant??? Will her Daughter be PM? or what?

So, I guess, she didn't have time to be such a model mother while being a politician if she allowed her unmarried 17-year old daughter to get pregnant. It also means that her daughter will not have time to help her raise Trig while she will (hopefully) be VP.

At some point a parent cannot control the actions of their child. I've seen many parents who gave their children the best money could buy, they thought there kids were angels, until they found out these were hanging with the worng crowd, doing drugs and other forms of reckless behavior.

Palin could have done the politically expedient move, sent her away to get an abortion, and pretended the whole thing never happened. That would make her no different from the Ted Haggard's, Mark Foley's, David Vitter's and Larry Craig's of the Republican party. Instead she is confronting the issue head on and helping her daughter, while many pregnant teens feel like they have no one to turn to.

And let's not forget McCain most certainly knew about this issue when he was vetting Palin out for the position of V.P. He probably trusted Palin's character enough to know they could weather this scandal. So instead of criticizing her for her daughter's actions, I see a mother, whom like my own, would prefer I came to her and admitted my mistakes so she could help me rather than worrying about the implications it could have on her reputation.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

At some point a parent cannot control the actions of their child. I've seen many parents who gave their children the best money could buy, they thought there kids were angels, until they found out these were hanging with the worng crowd, doing drugs and other forms of reckless behavior.

Palin could have done the politically expedient move, sent her away to get an abortion, and pretended the whole thing never happened. That would make her no different from the Ted Haggard's, Mark Foley's, David Vitter's and Larry Craig's of the Republican party. Instead she is confronting the issue head on and helping her daughter, while many pregnant teens feel like they have no one to turn to.

And let's not forget McCain most certainly knew about this issue when he was vetting Palin out for the position of V.P. He probably trusted Palin's character enough to know they could weather this scandal. So instead of criticizing her for her daughter's actions, I see a mother, whom like my own, would prefer I came to her and admitted my mistakes so she could help me rather than worrying about the implications it could have on her reputation.

Gruzinit is correct. Nobody is responsible for the actions of somebody else, including their own children. G-d gave all of us free will, which we can exercise at any point. Proverbs 22:6 gives a general rule, not a promise that is set in stone, and even if a child does indeed choose the ways of the L-rd, he or she can still choose to give in to sin at any given moment. King David (zt"l) was a moral giant of a man, and one after G-d's own heart, and yet he chose to give in to lust and commit not only adultery, but murder.

The fact that Bristol Palin is choosing to go through with her embarrassing unplanned, unwed pregnancy proves that her mother's Biblical instruction has been heeded well. Bristol could have at any point chosen to go to a back-alley Planned Parenthood, at taxpayers' expense, and nobody would have even needed known that this pregnancy ever existed. Instead, she's choosing to go through with it and have this child and raise it up with the full measure of love and cherishing. Sarah and her daughter both deserve applause in this, not condemnation.

As for Masha, it seems that you have decided to become a clone of Scriabin, which I think, on this issue, is unfortunate. Chaim gave you a very good response to your concern about Palin, and you seem to have disregarded it. Please wake up and put this petty opposition to a devout, pro-life Christian mother aside.

[GoIsraelGo!]

  So what if her daughter is pregnant??? Will her Daughter be PM? or what?

So, I guess, she didn't have time to be such a model mother while being a politician if she allowed her unmarried 17-year old daughter to get pregnant. It also means that her daughter will not have time to help her raise Trig while she will (hopefully) be VP.

At some point a parent cannot control the actions of their child. I've seen many parents who gave their children the best money could buy, they thought there kids were angels, until they found out these were hanging with the worng crowd, doing drugs and other forms of reckless behavior.

Palin could have done the politically expedient move, sent her away to get an abortion, and pretended the whole thing never happened. That would make her no different from the Ted Haggard's, Mark Foley's, David Vitter's and Larry Craig's of the Republican party. Instead she is confronting the issue head on and helping her daughter, while many pregnant teens feel like they have no one to turn to.

And let's not forget McCain most certainly knew about this issue when he was vetting Palin out for the position of V.P. He probably trusted Palin's character enough to know they could weather this scandal. So instead of criticizing her for her daughter's actions, I see a mother, whom like my own, would prefer I came to her and admitted my mistakes so she could help me rather than worrying about the implications it could have on her reputation.

Great Post                                                      

                                                                                  Shalom from Dox

[GoIsraelGo!]

At some point a parent cannot control the actions of their child. I've seen many parents who gave their children the best money could buy, they thought there kids were angels, until they found out these were hanging with the worng crowd, doing drugs and other forms of reckless behavior.

Palin could have done the politically expedient move, sent her away to get an abortion, and pretended the whole thing never happened. That would make her no different from the Ted Haggard's, Mark Foley's, David Vitter's and Larry Craig's of the Republican party. Instead she is confronting the issue head on and helping her daughter, while many pregnant teens feel like they have no one to turn to.

And let's not forget McCain most certainly knew about this issue when he was vetting Palin out for the position of V.P. He probably trusted Palin's character enough to know they could weather this scandal. So instead of criticizing her for her daughter's actions, I see a mother, whom like my own, would prefer I came to her and admitted my mistakes so she could help me rather than worrying about the implications it could have on her reputation.

Gruzinit is correct. Nobody is responsible for the actions of somebody else, including their own children. G-d gave all of us free will, which we can exercise at any point. Proverbs 22:6 gives a general rule, not a promise that is set in stone, and even if a child does indeed choose the ways of the L-rd, he or she can still choose to give in to sin at any given moment. King David (zt"l) was a moral giant of a man, and one after G-d's own heart, and yet he chose to give in to lust and commit not only adultery, but murder.

The fact that Bristol Palin is choosing to go through with her embarrassing unplanned, unwed pregnancy proves that her mother's Biblical instruction has been heeded well. Bristol could have at any point chosen to go to a back-alley Planned Parenthood, at taxpayers' expense, and nobody would have even needed known that this pregnancy ever existed. Instead, she's choosing to go through with it and have this child and raise it up with the full measure of love and cherishing. Sarah and her daughter both deserve applause in this, not condemnation.

As for Masha, it seems that you have decided to become a clone of Scriabin, which I think, on this issue, is unfortunate. Chaim gave you a very good response to your concern about Palin, and you seem to have disregarded it. Please wake up and put this petty opposition to a devout, pro-life Christian mother aside.

C F ...Sarah Palin is a great lady with great morals, she obviously adores her family and what family does not have troubles? These lefties are so desperate to smear her and all they can come up with is....her daughter got pregnant. The Left has nothing on Sarah, so they go after her kids. Liberals take pathetic to a whole new level.


                                                                                               Shalom from Dox   

[Rubystars]

C F ...Sarah Palin is a great lady with great morals, she obviously adores her family and what family does not have troubles? These lefties are so desperate to smear her and all they can come up with is....her daughter got pregnant. The Left has nothing on Sarah, so they go after her kids. Liberals take pathetic to a whole new level.

Just as I was afraid they would I've also seen some horrific comments from left wingers directed at Trig.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Of course the Left hates it that Bristol is having a baby. They hate all pregnant women who don't suck their children out with a vacuum cleaner or inject them full of acid. That's why they hate her. They didn't get mad when Rudy Giuliani said he would pay for his daughter's abortion--they LOVED that. They only hate people who believe in the sanctity of life and oppose butchery.

Oh, and by the way, yimach schmo to the baby-murdering black Nazi beast Erica.

[GoIsraelGo!]

C F ...Sarah Palin is a great lady with great morals, she obviously adores her family and what family does not have troubles? These lefties are so desperate to smear her and all they can come up with is....her daughter got pregnant. The Left has nothing on Sarah, so they go after her kids. Liberals take pathetic to a whole new level.

Just as I was afraid they would I've also seen some horrific comments from left wingers directed at Trig.

Shalom Ruby, just goes to show how desperate and cruel the left has become. How could anyone say anything bad about an innocent baby?
I am counting on G-d to deal with the likes of these people.

                                                                                     Shalom from Dox  

                                                  

                                                                                      

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Ruby, yimach schmo vezichro to the Hellenist Nazi Markos Moulitsas. That Zeus-worshipping sack of lamb excrement deserves a very slow, gradual case of penile cancer that gradually spreads to his rectum. This pederastic homo deserves the vilest death possible for wishing such evil on such an innocent, beautiful baby. May that ouzo-addled fiend burn in hell forever.  

[Rubystars]

Oh, and by the way, yimach schmo to the baby-murdering black Nazi beast Erica.

Did Jesus say that to the criminals who were hanging next to him C.F.? Or did he say to the one who asked Jesus for help "today you will be with me in paradise?" I think Erica needs to repent sincerely before God for what she did and do her best to encourage other women (especially black women, because they're the ones who have a lot of abortions) not to harm their own babies and to trust God to help them care for their babies. She does have repentance to do if she had an abortion, but God will forgive her if she sincerely repents of that sin and does her best to help other babies survive. She does have three other healthy children and two stepchildren who are well cared for and loved. You can see them on Youtube.

Your harshness is not Christian. We are to forgive people and show love to them. What if she were to come to you C.F. and ask you what to do in order to make things right with God again? Would you scowl at her and scream a curse at her, or would you, like a Christian, embrace her and help her and tell her God loves her?

[muman613]

At some point a parent cannot control the actions of their child. I've seen many parents who gave their children the best money could buy, they thought there kids were angels, until they found out these were hanging with the worng crowd, doing drugs and other forms of reckless behavior.

Palin could have done the politically expedient move, sent her away to get an abortion, and pretended the whole thing never happened. That would make her no different from the Ted Haggard's, Mark Foley's, David Vitter's and Larry Craig's of the Republican party. Instead she is confronting the issue head on and helping her daughter, while many pregnant teens feel like they have no one to turn to.

And let's not forget McCain most certainly knew about this issue when he was vetting Palin out for the position of V.P. He probably trusted Palin's character enough to know they could weather this scandal. So instead of criticizing her for her daughter's actions, I see a mother, whom like my own, would prefer I came to her and admitted my mistakes so she could help me rather than worrying about the implications it could have on her reputation.

Gruzinit is correct. Nobody is responsible for the actions of somebody else, including their own children. G-d gave all of us free will, which we can exercise at any point. Proverbs 22:6 gives a general rule, not a promise that is set in stone, and even if a child does indeed choose the ways of the L-rd, he or she can still choose to give in to sin at any given moment. King David (zt"l) was a moral giant of a man, and one after G-d's own heart, and yet he chose to give in to lust and commit not only adultery, but murder.

The fact that Bristol Palin is choosing to go through with her embarrassing unplanned, unwed pregnancy proves that her mother's Biblical instruction has been heeded well. Bristol could have at any point chosen to go to a back-alley Planned Parenthood, at taxpayers' expense, and nobody would have even needed known that this pregnancy ever existed. Instead, she's choosing to go through with it and have this child and raise it up with the full measure of love and cherishing. Sarah and her daughter both deserve applause in this, not condemnation.

As for Masha, it seems that you have decided to become a clone of Scriabin, which I think, on this issue, is unfortunate. Chaim gave you a very good response to your concern about Palin, and you seem to have disregarded it. Please wake up and put this petty opposition to a devout, pro-life Christian mother aside.

CF,

Let me make a comment on what you said about King David. According to Jewish belief he was not a murderer nor an adulterer. I have found this issue on http://www.askmoses.com which is a respected Ask the Rabbi site run by Chabad Rabbis.

I will quote from the following:

http://www.askmoses.com/article/182,1972311/Was-King-David-guilty-of-murder-and-adultery.html

David

Known as the "Melech Hamoshiach" (anointed king), David not only lead his generation in G-d's ways, but he also merited to be divinely inspired and compose the Psalms, a book which we recite in our prayers (and many other occasions), until this very day! Amongst the Jewish greats of all times he is listed in the "Big 7", a group that in many contexts is known as the pillars of Judaism. For example, the traditional "Mi Sheberach" prayer on behalf of ill people begins with the following words: "May He who blessed our fathers, Abraham Isaac and Jacob, Moses and Aaron, David and Solomon, bless the sick person..."

    If David desired this woman and was willing to go to any length to fulfill his "fantasy," why did he first send messengers to inquire regarding Bathsheba?

Is it conceivable that we would invoke the name of a murderer and adulterer in an attempt to elicit divine mercy?! Is there a shortage of Jewish greats? The authors of this prayer were well aware of the Bible and all its stories, including the story of David and Bathsheba, yet they did not hesitate to include David in this prayer, where he shares such illustrious company!

Holiness and impurity do not go hand-in-hand! Maimonides tells us that one can only become a prophet if he has the ability to completely overcome his temptations. Among the prophets listed1 is King David. It is, therefore difficult to assume that he simply succumbed to his temptations. Indeed, the righteous David had no worldly desires, as he testifies in the Psalms2 that "My heart [i.e. my passions and desires] has died within me."

Bathsheba

There is a dispute in the Talmud3 whether or not Bathsheba was technically a married woman at the time. The Talmud rules that she was not. The law was that before a man went out to war he was required to divorce his wife. This was a necessary precaution taken to protect the wife. In case the husband would die in battle and no one could testify to the fact, the wife would not be an "Agunah" (chained to her possibly deceased husband) and would be free to remarry. If, however, the husband did return from the battlefield safe and sound – the couple was free to remarry. Uriah, too, issued this divorce to his wife and thus, according to Jewish law, King David had relations with a divorced woman.
Please note, that before King David summoned Bathsheba he "sent and inquired about the woman."4 If David, the absolute monarch, desired this woman and was willing to go to any length to fulfill his "fantasy," why did he first send messengers to inquire regarding Bathsheba? He should have sent messengers to "summon" the woman. It is evident that before David summoned her he wished to determine her marital status. Only after ascertaining that she was, in fact, the (divorced) wife of Uriah, did he make his advance.

Furthermore, the verse testifies that David only had relations with Bathsheba after "she had been cleansed [i.e. immersed in the Mikvah] from her [menstrual] impurity." Would an adulterer be concerned about such details?

Uriah

The Talmud tells us Uriah was guilty of treason—a capital offence. When Uriah addressed David, he referred to his general Joab as "my lord." Referring to any person as "my lord" while in the presence of a king is extremely audacious. The lack of respect which Uriah exhibited towards David is also alluded to in another verse:5 Uriah told David: "By your life (chayecha) and the life of your soul I will not do such a thing." Generally, the Hebrew word "chayecha," (your life), is written with two yuds after the chet. In this verse it is written with only one; one yud is missing—as if the life of the king has less value to him.While these may seem to be fairly trivial points, an understanding of the Torah’s view of monarchy further clarifies the issue: On the verse6 "you shall set ("som tasim") a king over you," the Talmud7 notes that the words used have the same root as the word aymah—fear. First and foremost, a king’s dominion must be predicated on fear and total reverence.
This concept is so vital that according to Jewish law, "one who signals to another person while in the presence of a king is punished with death"! We must treat a king of flesh and blood in the same manner as we would treat the King of kings, the Almighty Himself, for the earthly monarch is His representative. Furthermore, the very stability of the entire nation hinges on the absolute submission of the nation to its leader. Allowing even the slightest act of disrespect to slide can lead to bigger and worse forms of rebellion.

    David realizes that, despite his pure intentions, this story would make for a wonderful front page story in the "Jerusalem Enquirer"...

Since Uriah showed signs of treason by ignoring Judaism's laws of reverance for the King he was deserving of death. Thus David ordering Joab to send Uriah to the frontlines where he would meet his death did not contravene any Torah laws.

Truth Be Told

Let us now examine the "inside story" behind the story of King David and Bathsheba:

A glaring question which must be asked is: why wasn't David, the valiant warrior, at the frontlines of the war, leading his subjects in battle -- much as he had done by so many of the other battles of Israel? The answer to this question is that at the moment David was dealing with a more important problem; he did not have a fitting heir to succeed him--a son who would be worthy of being the antecedent of Moshiach. That is why David was on the roof of his palace, a place where one goes to have peace of mind to ponder a serious issue (see I Samuel 9:25).

At that time G-d -- via a prophetic vision -- shows Bathsheba to David. A king's palace is not next door to other homes, but is surrounded by gardens, orchards, parks and walls. She was immersing herself in the Mikvah (an area which is always completely enclosed, without any windows to the outside), and David perceived that she was "extremely beautiful." This term, used by the Torah to describe our holy matriarchs, primarily refers to spiritual inner-beauty. David was a man of action, and he had found the woman who was worthy of being the grandmother of Moshiach. He immediately dispatched messengers to ascertain that she was divorced from Uriah, and did not hesitate to consummate the union.

Afterwards, David realizes that, despite his pure intentions, this story would make for a wonderful front page story in the "Jerusalem Enquirer". After all, he had plenty of enemies who would relish the opportunity to destroy his reputation. He, therefore, summons Uriah from the battlefield, and tells him to go to his "wife." His intention was for Uriah to respond: "Your Majesty, Bathsheba is currently not my wife. I divorced her before leaving in the King's service!" For some reason, Uriah refuses to do so, and instead insults the king, incurring the death penalty. David, perhaps taking in to consideration Uriah's courageous service in his army, chooses to allow him to die an honorable death on the battlefield rather then be executed for treason.

The Mistake

Why then was King David chastised by Nathan and punished for this incident if technically he followed the strict letter of the law?

The story wasn't so smooth. While David did not commit adultery or murder, a number of other things went wrong.
King David prophetically knew that Bathsheba was destined to be his wife8. His Chet (shortcoming) was his lack of patience; his unwillingness to wait. It is true that technically Bathsheba wasn't a married a woman, but in appearance the whole thing looked like an extra-marital affair. David needed Bathsheba because he knew that the Moshiach was destined to descend from his union with her. Had he waited, he would have been able to have Bathsheba without having Uriah killed. His error was simply not weighing all the factors, not realizing that since she was destined to be his wife, he did not have to rush the process by taking matters into his own hands.

The "sin" (in Hebrew: Chet, lit. translated "shortcoming") of David was not exercising the proper judgment expected of a man of his stature. To quote the Talmud: "Whoever says that David sinned is simply mistaken!" For if Bathsheba had gone to another man it might have been cunning or obnoxious9, but it would not be a sin. It is only because of David's great status that the Prophet and G-d consider David's lack of judgement "sinful".
The Zohar maintains that David’s principle sin was: "him [Uriah] you have killed by the sword of the children of Ammon"10. David ought to have brought Uriah to the Sanhedrin where they would have executed him in accordance with Jewish law. Instead, by having him killed in the battle against Ammon, David caused a "chillul Hashem" – a desecration of G-d’s name. The children of Ammon were now able to take credit for killing a Jew, and give honor and praise to their deity for this "triumph."

    Only one who does not have a proper appreciation for the level of a true tzaddik can accuse G-d’s anointed servant of adultery and/or murder!

Considering the potential of David it was upsetting to G-d that he summoned Bathsheba in this discreet roundabout way, and that he had Uriah killed by the hands of enemies. Thus G-d resented, the Prophet rebuked, and David repented.

Back To The Future

We will conclude with a statement of our sages: King David was too holy to have erred in the incident of Bathsheba. He only stumbled in order to teach us a lesson, to set a precedent of a Tzadik who does sincere repentance. As is known, David spent thirteen years repenting for his "sin." Many of the most beautiful psalms were composed by King David during this period. The Midrash testifies that for those thirteen years, King David’s pillow had to be changed seven times every night for they were drenched with his tears!

When we look back at G-d's anger and David's repentence through our paradigm, we quickly assume that it must have been a grave sin. But when we view the story through the lense of Torah's guide-for-the-future we soon learn that even circumstantial mishaps require ample repentance.

I think King David should be judged with mercy because of he is the progenitor of the Moshiach.

muman613

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Chaim discussed King David on this week's Ask JTF, and says that he asked G-d to test him, and that he failed miserably. I do consider him a giant of a man, and he is one of my favorite biblical figures. When I first became a Christian, he was my biggest inspiration in my faith.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Ruby, there is nothing un-Christian in what I said, and Chaim would agree. Yes, Erica should repent, but as of right now, she is proud of murdering her own child. She is a completely unrepentant Jew-hating, baby-murdering black racist. As long as that is true of her, she should burn in hell forever.

If she comes to me HONESTLY repenting and asking for forgiveness, then as a believer I would be obligated to accept it and accept her as a sister in Christ (if she really means it). Until then, the curse of damnation hangs over her in both Judaism and Christianity.

[muman613]

Chaim discussed King David on this week's Ask JTF, and says that he asked G-d to test him, and that he failed miserably. I do consider him a giant of a man, and he is one of my favorite biblical figures. When I first became a Christian, he was my biggest inspiration in my faith.

It requires a great amount of Chutzpah to judge King David. You really think you are on his level?

muman613

PS: Read about how David HaMelech repented for any 'sin' he may have commited:

http://www.torahweb.org/torah/special/2003/rwil_stmtSicha2.html

Let us look at mistakes of kings in Sefer Sh'muel. The Talmud contrasts Sha'ul and David. Sha'ul sinned once, and lost his kingdom and dynasty. David sinned twice but maintained his kingdom and dynasty. (6) Why?

Maharsha explains that David admitted his mistakes, whereas Sha'ul did not. (7) Why not?

First, Sha'ul's sin was unintentional, as his failure to destroy Amalek was based on his understanding of Talmudic logic, a kal va-chomer, which was, in fact, wrong. ( Second, the people had mercy on Agag and the best of the sheep, and were not willing to destroy them. (9) When Sha'ul finally confessed, he still justified his behavior by saying, "I feared the people." (10)

By contrast, David confessed immediately and unconditionally. In one case, the sin of counting the people, he realized the mistake on his own. (11) In the other case, his taking Batsheva and his role in the death of Uriya, he confessed his sin as soon as Nasan Ha-Navi explained it to him with a parable of a rich man taking a poor man's only sheep. (12)

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/464270/jewish/David-King-of-Israel-Lives.htm

[Rubystars]

Ruby, there is nothing un-Christian in what I said, and Chaim would agree. Yes, Erica should repent, but as of right now, she is proud of murdering her own child. She is a completely unrepentant Jew-hating, baby-murdering black racist. As long as that is true of her, she should burn in hell forever.

Erica's not a Jew hater as far as I know. I don't think she's particularly racist either. I don't think she understand how her positions indirectly hurt Jews and others though. You have to remember that Obama's socialism is no good for blacks either. Socialism keeps them down much worse than segregration ever did.

If she really is proud of what she did then that is very evil and I think she need to really make a serious change in regards to that. We should pray for her that she changes and will repent of this evil. I was very upset when I found out from you that she had said that she was proud of having an abortion. I was really upset and disgusted by that. I thought of that poor innocent baby and it made me feel so sad. However I still think that we should pray for her, not condemn her to hell automatically.

Saying Y"SV is not an "as long as" curse. It's saying she should have no hope in this world or the next, and that her name and memory should be obliterated. It's a very harsh curse that I don't think is even compatible with Christian philosophy at all except in very rare circumstances such as cursing Hitler Y"SV or Mengele Y"SV or Arafat Y"SV or others like them. If you hold out any hope for her to change and to come closer to God then we should not use this strong and powerful curse against her.

The greatest commandment is supposed to be love.

You have to understand that as horrible and murderous as abortion is, there is major pressure for many women to abort both from family and the medical establishment. Black babies were targeted for murder by the early feminist movement and most abortion clinics are set up in minority neighborhoods. I believe I mentioned to Erica once that she should be offended by the way her people are targeted by abortionists for money and to kill their babies.

It's also a natural human reaction to be defensive when you feel guilty about something or someone else tries to make you feel guilty about something. Abortions are horrible, cruel acts of murder, but I don't want Erica to go to hell. I want her to realize what she did was wrong and come to God with a sincere heart of repentance and then for her to try to help other women realize they don't have to do that!

I saw a music video on BET one time when I was flipping channels about a black woman who was trying to decide whether to have an abortion, and it showed how she was struggling so hard with all the pressure put on her but then she decided on life, and it was such a great thing that she decided on life. This was an attempt to help the black community see that abortion is not the answer and I think it was a really righteous video.

These women are lied to, they're told the baby can't feel any pain, they're told that it's a blob of tissue that's not human yet. They're told that it's irresponsible not to get an abortion. If anything is wrong with the baby sometimes there's a terrible stigma attached to carrying that baby to term and the baby and mother will come under vicious attack just like Sarah Palin's wonderful son Trig is coming under vicious attack. The right thing to do is not care about all that and love your baby enough to let them live and care for them, but some people can be very cruel, including doctors who make disparaging remarks.

If she comes to me HONESTLY repenting and asking for forgiveness, then as a believer I would be obligated to accept it and accept her as a sister in Christ (if she really means it). Until then, the curse of damnation hangs over her in both Judaism and Christianity.

I sincerely hope that she will not go to hell. You're supposed to pray for people like her, C.F. Pray sincerely that she won't go to hell, don't curse her to go there.

[Lisa]

It requires a great amount of Chutzpah to judge King David. You really think you are on his level?

muman613

PS: Read about how David HaMelech repented for any 'sin' he may have commited:

Muman, I think Chaimfan is just saying that he admires King David.  He's not judging the man at all.  If you listen to this week's Ask JTF show, Chaim responds to Chaimfan's question by bringing up King David, and how he thought he could resist all the temptation to do evil.  So G-d tested him with Batsheva bathing nude on the roof.  And King David failed that test because he had her husband killed in battle (along with other soldiers) so that he could have her.  Remember, I am paraphrasing Chaim here. 

G-d loved King David, but HE did not like what Kind David did to get Batsheva.  And therefore, King David' and Batsheva's baby died.  King David only lived to his 70's, and was very very sick at the end of his life with constant chills.  Again, I'm paraphrasing what Chaim said on this week's Ask JTF. 

[muman613]

It requires a great amount of Chutzpah to judge King David. You really think you are on his level?

muman613

PS: Read about how David HaMelech repented for any 'sin' he may have commited:

Muman, I think Chaimfan is just saying that he admires King David.  He's not judging the man at all.  If you listen to this week's Ask JTF show, Chaim responds to Chaimfan's question by bringing up King David, and how he thought he could resist all the temptation to do evil.  So G-d tested him with Batsheva bathing nude on the roof.  And King David failed that test because he had her husband killed in battle (along with other soldiers) so that he could have her.  Remember, I am paraphrasing Chaim here. 

G-d loved King David, but HE did not like what Kind David did to get Batsheva.  And therefore, King David' and Batsheva's baby died.  King David only lived to his 70's, and was very very sick at the end of his life with constant chills.  Again, I'm paraphrasing what Chaim said on this week's Ask JTF. 

Yes Lisa I know the story... If anyone is interested Chabad has an excellent explanation of this relationship @ http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/463977/jewish/Davids-Trials.htm . Yes, this was a test and as we know all men have a yetzer Hara. I was listening to Rabbi Wallerstien from www.torahanytime.com saying this about the evil inclination. As a matter of fact he used as an example the example I gave to CF the other night, the mitzvah of the captive woman.

I have just learned from Rabbis that the 'sin' of David is one which we cannot truly comprehend because we are on a much lower level than King David was. We believe that every righteous individual has a falling down, and our scripture is full of examples of our tzadicks making mistakes. Heck, even Moshe Rabbenei made the L-rd mad because he struck the rock instead of talking to it. Nobody is perfect if they are made of flesh and blood. But we still must judge favorably because King David is the seed of Moshiach.

muman613