Bin Laden Allowed To Stay Unbothered in Pakistan

[Shlomo]

Islam has never declared war on "us". BinLaden has declared war on the West ON BEHALF of Islam. One man cannot speak on behalf of almost 25% of the earth's population. Soon after the invasion of Afganistan, BinLaden called on all muslims to take arms against the united states, i didnt see suicide bombings in McDonalds or a biological attack in Manhatten. As for the destruction of Mecca; it will not only be immoral and unjust, it will be suicidal for the West. And if one missle is launched anywhere in Pakistan of India, it wont destroy the countries, itll destroy the world.

The word "Awliya" does not mean friend it means protector.

#1. Ummm... YES... They have declared war on the west. That's why you see those MASSES screaming "Death to America! Death to Israel!". That would be declaring war unless you don't want to be intellectually honest.

#2. We have actually stopped most of the terrorist attack but did you forget about 9-11 and all the missles launched into Israel? Again... not intellectually honest.

#3. Ok, so if it means protector... what about the other "verses"? I didn't see any rebuttal on those like "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them". Still looks like a vicious religion of hate and death to me. What about this?

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH'S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)

#4. "Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi" (I wonder what he's a doctor of... camels?) is a muslim. Of course he's going to feebly try to defend his beliefs. It still doesn't make it right!

And you asked for it... here's a few more from your "peaceful" koran and the idiot evil dictator and desert sand warrior who converted his army by death sentence, mohammed:

Khaan and Poocho's Religion of Peace

Announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve (9:3)



O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred... (8:65)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)



"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God;  and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)



And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)



O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

Believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god: far be it from his glory that He should have a son. (4:171)



As for those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment (4:56)

Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah - they shall have a severe punishment; and Allah is Mighty, the lord of retribution. (3:4)

Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" (Hadith 4:52:196)

(Isolated incident) ...then prostrated himself, and all who were with him prostrated too. But an old man took a handful of dust and touched his forehead with it saying, "This is sufficient for me." Later on I saw him killed as an infidel. (Hadith 5:59:311)

[yes the Jews and Muslims are both descendents of Abraham, but here is the attitude towards descendants of Abraham through Isaac (the Jews]: "If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve. Your relationship would not profit you, nor your children, on the day of resurrection; He will decide between you; and Allah sees what you do. Indeed, there is for you a good example in Abraham and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; WE DECLARE OURSELVES TO BE CLEAR OF YOU, AND ENMITY AND HATRED  HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH ALONE (60:2-4)

[jsullivan]

Anyone who believes the lies being peddled here by poocho93 and khaan needs to have their heads examined.

THE MUSLIMS THEMSELVES TRANSLATE VERSE 5:51 AS SAYING THAT IT IS FORBIDDEN TO HAVE CHRISTIANS AND JEWS AS YOUR FRIENDS.  GO TO THE JTF WEB SITE, SCROLL DOWN TO THE SECTION ENTITLED "THE KORAN," AND CLICK ON "I WANT TO READ THE KORAN IN ITS OWN WORDS."  THEN GO TO CHAPTER 5, VERSE 51 TO SEE HOW THE MUSLIMS THEMSELVES TRANSLATE THE VERSE.  THIS IS A MUSLIM WEB SITE TRANSLATING THE KORAN INTO ENGLISH.

AND THIS IS ONE OF THE LEAST VIOLENT VERSES IN THE NAZI SATANIC KORAN.  READ IT FOR YOURSELVES.  AND READ THE HADITH, WHICH MUSLIMS MUST ALSO BELIEVE IN.  YOU'LL SEE THAT THE TERRORIST, MASS MURDERER, PEDOPHILE MOHAMMED LIED TO THE INFIDELS TO TRICK THEM BEFORE EXTERMINATING THEM COMPLETELY IN THE ARABIAN PENINSULA.

[Rhuan]

We already know these things, it's just that my friend khaan does not yet understand... Give me time, I'm working on him.

[khaan]

Jeffguy, the VAST MAJORITY of the verses you posted are from Surahs 8 and 9. These were revealed to Mohammad before various battles. In the Quran, it doesnt give context, this is only availible with commentary. The reason there is no context is that it would sound pretty silly for god to say: "In six whatever ad, mohammad did so and so, even though that date wont happen for another three years" (you get the pictyre).

With regards to the punishment for apostasy, well, ive already explained that one elsewhere.

And btw, youve COMPLETELY MISQUOTED 60:2 - 4 (and you might want to read 60:1 for the beginning of that bit).

You posted photographs of various "Muslims."
I can proudly declare that none of them are Ahmadis or have anything to do with Ahmadiyat

[Shlomo]

Jeffguy, the VAST MAJORITY of the verses you posted are from Surahs 8 and 9. These were revealed to Mohammad before various battles. In the Quran, it doesnt give context, this is only availible with commentary. The reason there is no context is that it would sound pretty silly for god to say: "In six whatever ad, mohammad did so and so, even though that date wont happen for another three years" (you get the pictyre).

With regards to the punishment for apostasy, well, ive already explained that one elsewhere.

And btw, youve COMPLETELY MISQUOTED 60:2 - 4 (and you might want to read 60:1 for the beginning of that bit).

You posted photographs of various "Muslims."
I can proudly declare that none of them are Ahmadis or have anything to do with Ahmadiyat

That's all you have to say? I messed up on one quote and it's out of context? Shheess... you are going to believe whatever it is you want to believe.

There's really not much to argue about what the koran is saying in those texts. And I've given you texts from all different places including Surah.

[poocho93]

http://www.gawaher.com/index.php?showtopic=32680

[Rhuan]

The context in the quran does not support the arguments that are being presneted there.

[Shlomo]

http://www.gawaher.com/index.php?showtopic=32680

Poopoo... I think your islam jihad forum is down.

[El Cabong!]

How is it that you DEMAND respect for yourself and Judaism and Israel and yet fail to return it to virtually anyone?

Because muslims don't respect any other religion on earth that's why. The day they start respecting other religion, is the day people like us may think about respecting theirs.

And the reason to bomb mecca? Iran's holiest leaders have said that if Israel destroys mecca first, then the Jewish G-d is greater that the islamic allah. They also said that if muslims destroy Israel first, then their islamic allah is greater. See the stupid logic involved involved it the thinking of these islamic cannibals? And all this was said in an assembly of their equivalent to our House of Congress.

[Shlomo]

How is it that you DEMAND respect for yourself and Judaism and Israel and yet fail to return it to virtually anyone?

Because muslims don't respect any other religion on earth that's why. The day they start respecting other religion, is the day people like us may think about respecting theirs.

And the reason to bomb mecca? Iran's holiest leaders have said that if Israel destroys mecca first, then the Jewish G-d is greater that the islamic allah. They also said that if muslims destroy Israel first, then their islamic allah is greater. See the stupid logic involved involved it the thinking of these islamic cannibals? And all this was said in an assembly of their equivalent to our House of Congress.

Yup... that's what I'm talking about. Then they will think that allah deserted them. It would be a crushing blow.

[Rhuan]

Thinking about it, wihout mecca, Islam couldn't hold together, I think that the quran states that mecca will stand forever...

[Shlomo]

Now, would the arabs cut off the oil out of spite? I don't think so... the rich arab elite class want to stay rich. A lot of them have even been irritated with islam and have wondered how to control it. This would make islam fall apart and the rich elite could care less about islam... they care more about themselves. Just a thought...

Also, would it be good to televise the count down? Like 24 hours in advance? It would be mecca from satelite with a big cross-hair over it. Or would that cause more saber rattling and possibly cause problems? Anyone have an opinion?

[El Cabong!]

Also, would it be good to televise the count down? Like 24 hours in advance? It would be mecca from satelite with a big cross-hair over it. Or would that cause more saber rattling and possibly cause problems? Anyone have an opinion?

No warning. Wait until they do that pilgrimige to mecca when about 1 million of them are walking around that stupid rock dressed in rags. Then fly a few jets into them filled with fuel and watch them burn so they know the end of islam is coming. Then drop the big one on them.

[Rhuan]

Unnecessary death is simply that, unnecessary, and evil too.

We should drop troops to force all the people out of mecca, then we should blow it up.

[El Cabong!]

Unnecessary death is simply that, unnecessary, and evil too.

We should drop troops to force [ball[/b] the people out of mecca, then we should blow it up.

Doing what you said and sending in our troops IS unecessary killing. Choose your side, don't sit on the fence.

[Rhuan]

I am against Islam, but I am not against the people, they have been indoctrinated, it is not their fault, to me, killing them is like killing babies.

[El Cabong!]

I am against Islam, but I am not against the people, they have been indoctrinated, it is not their fault, to me, killing them is like killing babies.

Better to kill them than to have our people killed. If they are indoctrinated, that's not our problem. There is no justification to sacrifice our men killed just to save our enemies, whether it's their fault or not. That is just pure misguided do-gooder nonsene.

[Rhuan]

I would risk my own life to save others.

I would hope that other people would be prepared to do so.

The quran is my nemy, and Satan who I believe guided muhammed in the creation of the quran is my enemy, innocent people who ahve been indoctrinated are not my enemies.

[NeverMore]

I would risk my own life to save others.

I would hope that other people would be prepared to do so.

The quran is my nemy, and Satan who I believe guided muhammed in the creation of the quran is my enemy, innocent people who ahve been indoctrinated are not my enemies.

people who think like you end up being killed by the hands of these "not your enemies".
you should really stop thinking that you are moral, because you're not! what can be more immoral than to offer sending your people to die, in order to save the ENEMY who tries to kill YOU and your people?
extremely illogical.

[Rhuan]

Think about it from all angles, the muslims are not our enemies, they are the enemy's slaves.

[NeverMore]

Think about it from all angles, the muslims are not our enemies, they are the enemy's slaves.

i dont care, and no one should care about the proper definition.
you have people, who want to kill you. look at it in whatever angle you want. it shouldnt make any difference in the way you deal with them.
and by the way, i am also against killing "just like that", im against hurting ANY righteous man. a righteose man (or woman of course) will be defined as one who doesnd want to hurt anyone who doesnt want to hurt him, and living accordingly (like helping the other righteous people and so on..).
that "love the sinner hate the sin" approach you have, you will never be able to defend it logically when it comes to surviving the threat of being killed by these sinners you mention. or when these sinners fight you, for example. its purely WRONG logically, if your logics support YOUR own survival.

[Rhuan]

I would rather be killed than murder millions of inocent slaves.

[NeverMore]

I would rather be killed than murder millions of inocent slaves.

so you say you better would prefer to see Jews die rather than taking potentially deadly action against the arabs?
because its direct logical continuation- better kill one Jew than million arabs=> better kill one Jew than 1000 arabs, because 1000000 and 1000 deads are both huge tragedies to them. you say actually that i, as a Jew, need to prefer dying rather than fighting them and killing if neccessary a big number of enemies who want to kill me, if i follow your way of thinking.

its so bad that you quantify and make equations of deads to be of the same value your life is.
if so, what is the number of enemies who want you dead are you allowing to die to save you?
these innocent slaves aint so inocent, and aint so slaves. they are grown up men, who can decide on their own between good and bad, and surely not innocent, because they want YOU dead and may have already killed Jews, for example.

i cant understand how can you seal yourself out from reality and remain locked on these suicidal ideas.

[Rhuan]

If it was a direct situation, i.e. A muslim is about to cut someone's throat, and I'm standing behind the muslim with a knife I would kill. If it was a kill or be killed situation, I would kill. If I was on an aeroplane and muslims tried to take control of it, I would fight them with whatever I had, but I would never arrange the death of muslims in a situation when there is a different available course of action that doesn't involve death on our side.

[NeverMore]

If it was a direct situation, i.e. A muslim is about to cut someone's throat, and I'm standing behind the muslim with a knife I would kill. If it was a kill or be killed situation, I would kill. If I was on an aeroplane and muslims tried to take control of it, I would fight them with whatever I had, but I would never arrange the death of muslims in a situation when there is a different available course of action that doesn't involve death on our side.

i fully agree with you, Rhuan.
its only that in some cases you have to choose to go to war and do these inevitable killings, that every war has, even if there is no "direct" situation. Israel has no "direct" situation now with lebanon, so we sit and do talkings with killers and other similar business. later, and due to that, the "direct situation" arises, and then, to win it and avoid the killing of your whole people, Jewish lives are lost, just like happened in the last lebanon war.