If Lehman Brothers Fails

[Ulli]

It might be socialism, but who said that some forms of socialism are 100% wrong? And the the free-market system is 100% correct. Only time will tell, perhaps.
 
 Yea but they are in the minority, and they have what to eat for now. What will happen to people when they dont have enough to eat?

Tzvi, I disagree. Socialism is the death of religious freedom. Socialism is collectivism. Socialism is pure hostility to God. They want to create the paradise on earth in a fleshly way. Any attempt to do this leads to the suffering of religious and hard working people.

The smaller the gouvernment, the greater is our freedom.

I hate Socialists of any kind. They are poison for all religious people, because they know no God. This is part of their ideology.

The gouvernment is imo not our friend, but a neccessary evil.

Look I bring you a good argument:

If you can organize your Synagoge community like you and your Rabbis want, without any interventions of the gouvernment you are free.

If the gouvernment intervenes you will see it as oppression.

Every religious and personal freedom is bound to the freedom of the economy. You will ever find a Jew that will donate to your Yeshiva, but if they take the money away from the people you have to beg the gouvernment.

You are bound to them and you have to do whatever they want or you are without Yeshiva.

Basically this leads to the State church/synagoge and this will destroy Judaism, like it destroys the religious communities all over Europe.

If the gouvernment promotes gay marriages you have to agree or to compromise

If the gouvernment promotes women as Rabbis, you have to agree or to compromise

If the gouvernment promotes even liberal Judaism, you have to agree or to compromise

 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Maybe if the raise the prices of fast food. Otherwise, people's financial worries will only lead them to gorge on food.

 Yea they should heavily tax fast food, just like they tax cigaretts.

[briann]

By the way.  One thing that has to be looked at is, How soon this will effect things such as unemployment and GDP growth.

If it has an immediate effect... it means that Obama may be elected out of the fact that voters believe that everything else has failed so.... .why not?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Pheasant- i wasn't talking about total socialism, but about how maybe sometimes the gov. can intervene in order to stop a big catastrophe. Becuase if these big financial institutions fail, then its not only them who suffer, it all of us as an economy together.
 And at the same time, total free-market, can also be bad becuase eventually we might have no competition, because of corporate takeovers (more $, more takeover's), and it would really mean that their would be some very rich people with the rest poor, serving them.

[briann]

Yes, but your money will be without any value, because America's money is not bound to gold. The value of the Dollar is based on the trust of the citizen in the American national economic. If this trust is gone you will have a great inflation. Also the gouvernment will be tried to save the economic with the unnatural plans of John Maynard Keynes. This will increase the ammount of dollar-notes on the market. The consequence is also inflation. 

Perhaps it will be the best to spent your wealth by buying merchandise for your stock. So you have stable wealth in order to sell it during the inflation period. You can demand now in the economic process the real wealth according to the inflation rate. So at least your family will have always food and will not suffer too much.

My oppinion towards the persecution of Jews issue, you are probably right. But if you are thinking this is only accurate for Jews you are mistaken.

The envy of lazy and sloppy people is going abouve religious and ethnic borders. Asians and white protestants will suffer as well under this wicked hand of bolschewist envy lazybones 

P.S.: My stock is filled very well.

You guys need to stop clinging to the Gold standard idea.  There is a reason why in 1932 and 33, during the height of the depression, nearly every country had to abandon the gold standard. 

If we back $ with Gold, the inflexibility of the world currencies will mean a 20 year depression.  don't believe me... look at how awful depressions used to be when we were backed to gold. (Pre 1933) vs. Post 1933.

Gold backing is populist nonsense by the likes of Ron Paul and other individuals who peddle pseudo economics.  IT sounds good, but when it is in place, its absolutely disastrous.

(Take it from a right-wing Finance Professor) 

[Ulli]

Pheasant- i wasn't talking about total socialism, but about how maybe sometimes the gov. can intervene in order to stop a big catastrophe. Becuase if these big financial institutions fail, then its not only them who suffer, it all of us as an economy together.
 And at the same time, total free-market, can also be bad becuase eventually we might have no competition, because of corporate takeovers (more $, more takeover's), and it would really mean that their would be some very rich people with the rest poor, serving them.

I think it is highly unfair that the tax payers have to pay for the big companies in bad times and in the good times the owners of this companies make a big fortune.

I also agree with you that the gouvernment has to make clear rules and enforce them for the private economy, because in this case would exactly happen what you mentiones.

Imo the ideal case is, if all people can make their own decisions freely without any pressure of other more wealthy people.

The gouvernment has to ensure this elemental point of a real free market society.

If people are going after successfull miniorities in economical crises the military and the police is responsible to end this wicked ape-like behaviour instantly.

[Ulli]

You guys need to stop clinging to the Gold standard idea.  There is a reason why in 1932 and 33, during the height of the depression, nearly every country had to abandon the gold standard. 

If we back $ with Gold, the inflexibility of the world currencies will mean a 20 year depression.  don't believe me... look at how awful depressions used to be when we were backed to gold. (Pre 1933) vs. Post 1933.

Gold backing is populist nonsense by the likes of Ron Paul and other individuals who peddle pseudo economics.  IT sounds good, but when it is in place, its absolutely disastrous.

(Take it from a right-wing Finance Professor) 

I think there is nothing wrong with the inflexibility of the currency. The only important thing is imo that the gouvernment has to stockpile the exact ammount of gold that is equivalent to the ammount of money.

If the gouvernment does this there is also no problem with the existent ammount of gold in the world, because the more gold the gouvernment is buying the higher will be the price for it. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I think it is highly unfair that the tax payers have to pay for the big companies in bad times and in the good times the owners of this companies make a big fortune.

I also agree with you that the gouvernment has to make clear rules and enforce them for the private economy, because in this case would exactly happen what you mentiones.

Imo the ideal case is, if all people can make their own decisions freely without any pressure of other more wealthy people.

The gouvernment has to ensure this elemental point of a real free market society.

If people are going after successfull miniorities in economical crises the military and the police is responsible to end this wicked ape-like behaviour instantly.

 Either way the top ceo's make their $. Their are almost no reprecussions to them. They are concidered salary- employess and they make their millions- something which should definitly change.

[briann]

I think there is nothing wrong with the inflexibility of the currency. The only important thing is imo that the gouvernment has to stockpile the exact ammount of gold that is equivalent to the ammount of money.

If the gouvernment does this there is also no problem with the existent ammount of gold in the world, because the more gold the gouvernment is buying the higher will be the price for it. 

Thats exactly the problem.  I dont think you realize how the gold standard worked, and if you did, you would never support it, and you would realize why recessions/depressions were so much worse before 1933.

Countries that were not on the gold standard in 1929--or that quickly abandoned the gold standard--by and large escaped the Great Depression.

Countries that abandoned the gold standard in 1930 and 1931 suffered from the Great Depression, but escaped its worst ravages.

Countries that held to the gold standard through 1933 (like the United States) or 1936 (like France) suffered the worst from the Great Depression

Commitment to the gold standard prevented Federal Reserve action to expand the money supply in 1930 and 1931--and forced President Hoover into destructive attempts at budget-balancing in order to avoid a gold standard-generated run on the dollar.  This really made the bank panics in the US so horrible.   

I could go into much more detail if you wanted.

[Ulli]

Either way the top ceo's make their $. Their are almost no reprecussions to them. They are concidered salary- employess and they make their millions- something which should definitly change.

Yes you are right. In my oppinion everybody is responsible for his decisions. Of course in an economical way too. If somebody doesn't want to take the outcome of his decisions, he should have to stay out of business.

[Ulli]

Thats exactly the problem.  I dont think you realize how the gold standard worked, and if you did, you would never support it, and you would realize why recessions/depressions were so much worse before 1933.

Countries that were not on the gold standard in 1929--or that quickly abandoned the gold standard--by and large escaped the Great Depression.

Countries that abandoned the gold standard in 1930 and 1931 suffered from the Great Depression, but escaped its worst ravages.

Countries that held to the gold standard through 1933 (like the United States) or 1936 (like France) suffered the worst from the Great Depression

Commitment to the gold standard prevented Federal Reserve action to expand the money supply in 1930 and 1931--and forced President Hoover into destructive attempts at budget-balancing in order to avoid a gold standard-generated run on the dollar.  This really made the bank panics in the US so horrible.   

I could go into much more detail if you wanted.

I know all of this, but at least your money will not be worthless. You decide for yourself if you suffer in a crises. If you always were provident you don't suffer in the worst case. If you spent your money with full hands and enjoyed all kind of belony pleasures you will be bit by the dogs. This is the way life is.

[briann]

Yes you are right. In my oppinion everybody is responsible for his decisions. Of course in an economical way too. If somebody doesn't want to take the outcome of his decisions, he should have to stay out of business.

BTW... I noticed you have Friedman on your signature.  He's actually kinda the father of modern monetary stabilization theory.

[briann]

I know all of this, but at least your money will not be worthless. You decide for yourself if you suffer in a crises. If you always were provident you don't suffer in the worst case. If you spent your money with full hands and enjoyed all kind of belony pleasures you will be bit by the dogs. This is the way life is.

The money will not be worthless...  unless you have a central bank that is purposely trying to devaluate their currency... ie  the Weimar republic and the rediculous hyperinflation (1 dollar = 5 trillion R.M.)


.  BTW..  pegging money to anything is horribly dangerous.  IT always causes financial disasters.   I could give you example after example.   But this is a seperate discussion.

[Ulli]

BTW... I noticed you have Friedman on your signature.  He's actually kinda the father of modern monetary stabilization theory.

Friedman says in the quoted book, that gold standart is one possibility for a righteous currency. I admit, that he said that your solution is possible too.

[briann]

Friedman says in the quoted book, that gold standart is one possibility for a righteous currency. I admit, that he said that your solution is possible too.

I would love to take credit, but Its HIS SOLUTION, not mine.  Everything that modern free-market countries do regarding monetary policy do is based upon HIS ideas. 

BTW, Milton... just as Alan Greenspan toyed with the idea of Keynsian Economics... and even the gold standard... but they quickly abandon it when they noticed that it produces horrible resorts. 

Again... its like Communism.  It sounds good... but it ALWAYS produces horrible results in real-life.

Brian

[Ulli]

I would love to take credit, but Its HIS SOLUTION, not mine.  Everything that modern free-market countries do regarding monetary policy do is based upon HIS ideas. 

BTW, Milton... just as Alan Greenspan toyed with the idea of Keynsian Economics... and even the gold standard... but they quickly abandon it when they noticed that it produces horrible resorts. 

Again... its like Communism.  It sounds good... but it ALWAYS produces horrible results in real-life.

Brian

I have only this book now. I will buy some other works of him. Perhaps are there really other aspects I don't know in depth.

But this one is really interesting.   

[Zelhar]

I think there is no way to back currency by the gold standard, other than to actually mint gold coins. Otherwise, one can never be sure at what point the government decides to abandon the standard. And using gold coins is almost like reverting back into barter economy.

[SavetheWest]

CF makes some great points.

NWJTF- DO not touch WaMu!!!! It will not exist soon enough.  It is toxic!

Too late!!! 

I only put $100 in though...

I also like Krispy Kreme Doughnuts...I think they will be bought by a fast food company any day now and they are so cheap right now!

[SavetheWest]

The money will not be worthless...  unless you have a central bank that is purposely trying to devaluate their currency... ie  the Weimar republic and the rediculous hyperinflation (1 dollar = 5 trillion R.M.)


.  BTW..  pegging money to anything is horribly dangerous.  IT always causes financial disasters.   I could give you example after example.   But this is a seperate discussion.

What else have countries' backed up their currencies with?


This is interesting to learn becasue so many people tout the gold standard as the savoir of the economy. 

[cjd]

The sad fact here is that as companies like Lehman brothers fail they are taking the money of thousands of small investors with then because of mismanagement. Peoples life savings, retirement and money for day to day living expenses is going up in smoke because of other peoples greed. Companies like this knew they were taking on questionable investments but did it despite the fact that they knew they were buying problems in the long run. People were talking about market corrections today  like it was no big deal. Tell it to the elderly who are on fixed incomes that may be eating dog food because of the evil actions of some of the brokerage houses and poor government regulation.

[SavetheWest]

The sad fact here is that as companies like Lehman brothers fail they are taking the money of thousands of small investors with then because of mismanagement. Peoples life savings, retirement and money for day to day living expenses is going up in smoke because of other peoples greed. Companies like this knew they were taking on questionable investments but did it despite the fact that they knew they were buying problems in the long run. People were talking about market corrections today  like it was no big deal. Tell it to the elderly who are on fixed incomes that may be eating dog food because of the evil actions of some of the brokerage houses and poor government regulation.

Well said.  Some peoples' lives have been ruined by this outright corruption. 

They need to get those Katrina buses, put bars on them and haul off people by the thousands to jail.  From the scumbag mortgage brokers telling people they should take out that second loan, to the people involved in those Ditec commercials. 

Don't just put the hedge fund managers in jail but make everyone involved in this from top to bottom in prison. 
Otherwise, they find another business to screw people over.

[SavetheWest]

CF makes some great points.

NWJTF- DO not touch WaMu!!!! It will not exist soon enough.  It is toxic!

It looks like Wamu will be bought up tomorrow.

This is getting crazy!!!

 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Tzvi, I am afraid I agree completely with Pheasant here. Socialism (of this sort) is never justifiable or acceptable. By rewarding crony-capitalist monopolistic corporations with these obscene bailouts, we (in addition to raping the taxpayer) are only making sure that they will continue to go along as they have before, with the same old destructive and cannibalistic practices. Last time I checked, the feds themselves were in the hole to the tune of 430 billion dollars or something like that. Clearly, the whores of Washington can't afford to save everybody's donkey. Bailouts like the $85 billion one to AIG, only forestall the inevitable. These cancerous, rotted-out corporate corpses will come down soon enough no matter what the way the economy is.

I conceded earlier on that a total, cross-board economic collapse like this will suck big-time for many innocent people, but it's the only way the strong will be brought down. Only if these dinosaurs go extinct will there be a chance at new, upstart businesses and a real free market once again. If Congress hadn't unanimously voted to bail out the airlines after 9/11, who knows--maybe we would have, by now, several upstart airlines that actually charge reasonable rates and care about security. Do I like that our government is literally in bed with the monopolies and would never take them apart if their lives depended on it? No. I would much prefer that the gov't had dealt with these robber-barons ten years ago, before the economy was going down the tubes, but the reality of today is what it is and we shouldn't try to alter nature.

Brian, I don't agree that the Depression is what generated Hitler. The German people were always ferociously anti-Semitic, and were waiting only for a leader to come along who said and practiced what they wanted all along. Hitler (ys"vz) was just their man. If any particular event facilitated his rise, though, it was the "humiliating" defeat of Germany in WW1, which wounded Teutonic national pride very badly, and the "unfair" terms of Versailles (even though Germany's treatment of nations it conquered, and settlements it imposed, such as after the Franco-Prussian war of 1871 or Belgium in 1914 was far more ruthless).

[SavetheWest]

Tzvi, I am afraid I agree completely with Pheasant here. Socialism (of this sort) is never justifiable or acceptable. By rewarding crony-capitalist monopolistic corporations with these obscene bailouts, we (in addition to raping the taxpayer) are only making sure that they will continue to go along as they have before, with the same old destructive and cannibalistic practices. Last time I checked, the feds themselves were in the hole to the tune of 430 billion dollars or something like that. Clearly, the whores of Washington can't afford to save everybody's donkey. Bailouts like the $85 billion one to AIG, only forestall the inevitable. These cancerous, rotted-out corporate corpses will come down soon enough no matter what the way the economy is.

I conceded earlier on that a total, cross-board economic collapse like this will suck big-time for many innocent people, but it's the only way the strong will be brought down. Only if these dinosaurs go extinct will there be a chance at new, upstart businesses and a real free market once again. If Congress hadn't unanimously voted to bail out the airlines after 9/11, who knows--maybe we would have, by now, several upstart airlines that actually charge reasonable rates and care about security. Do I like that our government is literally in bed with the monopolies and would never take them apart if their lives depended on it? No. I would much prefer that the gov't had dealt with these robber-barons ten years ago, before the economy was going down the tubes, but the reality of today is what it is and we shouldn't try to alter nature.

Brian, I don't agree that the Depression is what generated Hitler. The German people were always ferociously anti-Semitic, and were waiting only for a leader to come along who said and practiced what they wanted all along. Hitler (ys"vz) was just their man. If any particular event facilitated his rise, though, it was the "humiliating" defeat of Germany in WW1, which wounded Teutonic national pride very badly, and the "unfair" terms of Versailles (even though Germany's treatment of nations it conquered, and settlements it imposed, such as after the Franco-Prussian war of 1871 or Belgium in 1914 was far more ruthless).

I have to disagree that the Germans were inherently anti-Semitic.  I think they succumbed and embraced evil like no nation had ever done before.  Before the Holocaust, Germany was seen as the most friendly and progressive nation to accept the Jewish people. Many other nations like Greece and Ukraine gladly accepted and welcomed the Nazis but were in different political and economic situations from Germany.  The German Jews in the 1920's thought there was no way genocide could happen in their country.  Rabbi Kahane talks about this topic in that Youtube video in the Thunderbird Hotel in Minnesota.  I believe it's in the sixth section of the video. He said it could happen in America under certain circumstances and that as Americans say something like that could never happen, that is very similar to what people said during the Weimar Republic in Germany.

We are still in a very very strong nation.  We still have 6% unemployment and a 3% GDP growth rate. 
Think of the complaining and turning to Obama already with this historically minor change that has been going on. 

I don't think we can imagine a situation where there was 30-50% unemployment and what people's reaction would be.  We are talking about a situation worse than the American Depression. 

I could be wrong but what I'm saying is that there were many countries that had historically very anti-Semtic regimes that were not better than pre 1920's Germany. 

[muman613]

Shalom,

Thank Hashem my company is still growing and our stock is still strong, despite the turbulent market. May he continue to bless my family and the entire Jewish nation.

muman613

PS: I daven each day for the stability of our wonderful host nation of America, without whom my family would probrobly been exterminated in Ukraine.