Chaim mentions an ideal govt for Jews would be a righteous monarch

[Zelhar]

Zelhar, surely you are joking here. Otherwise, you just insulted the entire movement. Your saying that Kahanism would install an idol-worshipping king is nothing short of an abomination. I urge you to repent of such blasphemy.

My point is that if Kahanists were to install a hereditary rule, than it is a possible outcome to eventually have a wicked evil King like Menasseh, who was a legal heir to the throne of David.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Zelhar, surely you are joking here. Otherwise, you just insulted the entire movement. Your saying that Kahanism would install an idol-worshipping king is nothing short of an abomination. I urge you to repent of such blasphemy.

My point is that if Kahanists were to install a hereditary rule, than it is a possible outcome to eventually have a wicked evil King like Menasseh, who was a legal heir to the throne of David.

 That is why their is the Sanhedrin. And when the system is working correctly, then if their is a situation where the king goes agains't the Torah, then he is not listined? What is the problem? (and obviously at the time, the system didn't work correctly the way it should, or else the king would not have been followed if he was wicked).

[q_q_]

<snip>
 That is why their is the Sanhedrin.

THERE

Any primary school child knows the difference between THERE and THEIR.

You get it wrong so frequently.

THERE <-- Point with your finger,  Over There
THEIR <-- Belonging.

At least you spelt it right.. Thank G-d for small miracles.   Or perhaps big miracles in this case.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)

9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.

Zelhar please think for a minute.   What does the secular anti-Torah government of Israel encourage the people to do?   Or "seduce them" as another way of saying it.  A lot like Manasseh huh?    Do you really think he was following Torah?   What makes him different in this passage from Olmert if he was encouraging idol worship or some other horrible sins (national suicide like Olmert encourages?) ?

[muman613]

<snip>
 That is why their is the Sanhedrin.

THERE

Any primary school child knows the difference between THERE and THEIR.

You get it wrong so frequently.

THERE <-- Point with your finger,  Over There
THEIR <-- Belonging.

At least you spelt it right.. Thank G-d for small miracles.   Or perhaps big miracles in this case.

q_q_,

Your rebuke is a bit strong for such a small aveirah... It seems many people in this generation struggle with spelling errors. I have a good friend who runs a blog and I end up fixing his spelling and grammar errors.

muman613

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

mum- "aveirah... "

     

[muman613]

mum- "aveirah... "

     

 

[P J C]

Monarchism is the last thing I would wan't for Israel.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

there already is "monarchism," only under a different name

[Zelhar]

Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)

9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.

Zelhar please think for a minute.   What does the secular anti-Torah government of Israel encourage the people to do?   Or "seduce them" as another way of saying it.  A lot like Manasseh huh?    Do you really think he was following Torah?   What makes him different in this passage from Olmert if he was encouraging idol worship or some other horrible sins (national suicide like Olmert encourages?) ?

Of course he wasn't following Torah, in fact he defied it completely and if I remeber correctly, had even made it illegal (which explains why a hidden Torah book was found at the days reign of his grandson Josiah). The difference is that Olmert can be overthrown by election, while with Menasseh they were stuck for 55 years.

[q_q_]

Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)

9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.

Zelhar please think for a minute.   What does the secular anti-Torah government of Israel encourage the people to do?   Or "seduce them" as another way of saying it.  A lot like Manasseh huh?    Do you really think he was following Torah?   What makes him different in this passage from Olmert if he was encouraging idol worship or some other horrible sins (national suicide like Olmert encourages?) ?

Of course he wasn't following Torah, in fact he defied it completely and if I remeber correctly, had even made it illegal (which explains why a hidden Torah book was found at the days reign of his grandson Josiah). The difference is that Olmert can be overthrown by election, while with Menasseh they were stuck for 55 years.

zelhar, are you israeli and "taught tenach" by a non orthodox jew , in or when you were in school?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)

9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.

Zelhar please think for a minute.   What does the secular anti-Torah government of Israel encourage the people to do?   Or "seduce them" as another way of saying it.  A lot like Manasseh huh?    Do you really think he was following Torah?   What makes him different in this passage from Olmert if he was encouraging idol worship or some other horrible sins (national suicide like Olmert encourages?) ?

Of course he wasn't following Torah, in fact he defied it completely and if I remeber correctly, had even made it illegal (which explains why a hidden Torah book was found at the days reign of his grandson Josiah). The difference is that Olmert can be overthrown by election, while with Menasseh they were stuck for 55 years.

zelhar, are you israeli and "taught tenach" by a non orthodox jew , in or when you were in school?

 Probably true, but what he brings is true, and I have already answered his dilema in the posts- like I said before. During the time, the system wasn't functioning correctly. In the correct system that will be B"H one day. A wicked king, and the wrong orders, are NOT to be followed. A king is also obligated by the Torah.

[Zelhar]

Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)

9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.

Zelhar please think for a minute.   What does the secular anti-Torah government of Israel encourage the people to do?   Or "seduce them" as another way of saying it.  A lot like Manasseh huh?    Do you really think he was following Torah?   What makes him different in this passage from Olmert if he was encouraging idol worship or some other horrible sins (national suicide like Olmert encourages?) ?

Of course he wasn't following Torah, in fact he defied it completely and if I remeber correctly, had even made it illegal (which explains why a hidden Torah book was found at the days reign of his grandson Josiah). The difference is that Olmert can be overthrown by election, while with Menasseh they were stuck for 55 years.

zelhar, are you israeli and "taught tenach" by a non orthodox jew , in or when you were in school?

I'm Israeli and my Tanach knowledge is mostly self-acquired. I went to a secular school and they teach there according to "Bikoret Hamikra", mainly.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I'm Israeli and my Tanach knowledge is mostly self-acquired. I went to a secular school and they teach there according to "Bikoret Hamikra", mainly.

What's bikoret hamikra?

[q_q_]

zelhar, are you israeli and "taught tenach" by a non orthodox jew , in or when you were in school?

I'm Israeli and my Tanach knowledge is mostly self-acquired. I went to a secular school and they teach there according to "Bikoret Hamikra", mainly.

"Bikoret Hamikra"
Biblical criticism..

I asked because there do tend to be certain  stories here and there in a pattern, that are familiar to secular israelis.  I've heard them speak of a similar eposode to the one you mentioned. Kings of times when torah wasn't kept well.  These must be a focal point for some reason.  

My point is  to point iut that people know things, not from a  complete study, but elsewhere mentioning it or pointing them at one bit.

Like a reform minister quoting talmud.

That doesn't mean it's necessarily a wrong reading.  But one should know that is how it has been "studied".

[q_q_]

I'm Israeli and my Tanach knowledge is mostly self-acquired. I went to a secular school and they teach there according to "Bikoret Hamikra", mainly.

What's bikoret hamikra?

now you would know, but google would have told you in a second

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Why would google tell me a different language

And also, maybe I wanted to hear from Zelhar because his answer wouldn't be a wikipedia article or a google site.   It would be his own personal account based on his personal experience.   You can't get that (experiential info) from a google search.   Maybe I would have liked that.

[Zelhar]

The story of Menasseh is taught in highschool but I used it as an example and I didn't bring up biblical criticism type of arguments (i.e that the source for the Priestly sources for the story were rebranding Menasseh as a kofer to excuse the religious reform that they were trying to install decades after his death...).

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

We ask about Religious law being the law, and about religious enforcement in Israel, but why aren't we asking about the secular enforcement of their Kefira unto society?
 I mean I just got reminded about the "Biblical study" they have in Israel- isn't that itself something that is imposing unto others (and bad becuase they are criticizing the Torah, while not allowing Rabbis to come speak to the people and at the same time allowing the xtian missionaries, jihadists and probably other cults come in and teach their kefira to the public- But a Rabbi coming to a high school- NOOO that is too much. Their must be a seperation between Shul and state.
 Not only that, but what about the fact for example those people who would like, themselves and their children not being exposed to all the prostitues in the street. Or the billboards promoting products with immodesty, etc. Why should us and our children be made to pass by places with these things? At least with religious Coercion- the Boss is G-d Almighty. HE knows what is right and wrong, and thus commands it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

 I mean I just got reminded about the "Biblical study" they have in Israel- isn't that itself something that is imposing unto others

  Yes, it's sick and evil and is one of the first and primary things that needs changing.  They teach "torah" as if the real Torah is just some fairy tale that was cooked up. 

And one can only wonder how to justify the existence of a place on the basis of a "fairy tale."   No wonder they have stopped trying to justify it and instead have simply taken up the cause of the enemy instead.