Chaim mentions an ideal govt for Jews would be a righteous monarch

[Dr. Dan]

but with a Sanhedrin.  Is this righteous king, leader for life and only through familial lineage?

[Zelhar]

That's the definition for monarchy. And I hope we never have this form of government in Israel.

[Dr. Dan]

so let's talk about it...

it's not an ideal form of govt for Jews to be ruled by one man...what makes sense is to have a change in leaders and chosen specially by the sanhedrin..

but then doesn't that type of theocracy sound like the way Iran does it?

[Rubystars]

Muslims stole and perverted everything that came from Jewish people so of course the Muslims do it wrong and in an evil way. A Jewish monarchy would be different. It would be the genuine article.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

And I hope we never have this form of government in Israel.

And now why is this? Are you just reacting on the basis of what our secular, Western culture has taught you, or do you have specific reasons for why you think this is bad (not that it's ever been tried)?

[Zelhar]

And I hope we never have this form of government in Israel.

And now why is this? Are you just reacting on the basis of what our secular, Western culture has taught you, or do you have specific reasons for why you think this is bad (not that it's ever been tried)?

First, I am secular and I would never agree to live under a religious rule. I would never give up willingly my civic rights and freedoms in favor of a theocratic, Monarchic or any other type of rule which takes away my vote.

Second, It is a fact of history that hereditary rule doesn't work well on the long term. One King may be good and capable leader, the next generation could turn out an absolute moron wicked incompetent.

Third, It is not an absolute requirement for the Jews to install a Monarch (while the Messiah lingers his arrival). In fact now that the Davidic line has disappeared, there is no legitimate contender for the throne anyway.

[Zelhar]

Muslims stole and perverted everything that came from Jewish people so of course the Muslims do it wrong and in an evil way. A Jewish monarchy would be different. It would be the genuine article.

History proves otherwise. Most Heirs to the Throne of David were not following his footsteps. Even worse were the Hasmonai rulers, each generation more wicked and stupid than the preceding one. And I wouldn't like to use the usurper dynasties who ruled over the Kingdom of Israel after King Solomon...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

but then doesn't that type of theocracy sound like the way Iran does it?

I'm not sure what this discussion has to do with Iran.   Judaism doesn't strive toward what Islam does, sunni or shia, so what does Iran have to do with this?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

First, I am secular and I would never agree to live under a religious rule. I would never give up willingly my civic rights and freedoms in favor of a theocratic, Monarchic or any other type of rule which takes away my vote.

This kind of attitude is the reason Israel's survival is stake. Far too many Israeli Jews have a secular, Westernized view of personal "rights" and entitlement. They would rather have the "right" to eat pork, kill their own unborn children, or work on the Sabbath than be safe from terrorism. But to answer this specific concern, Chaim has said before that a Jewish Torah state would not be a totalitarian regime. It would make sure basic moral principles of Judaism were followed (i.e. businesses would have to close for Shabbat, abortion would not be tolerated, etc.) and that's it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Davidic line did not dissappear.   Where do you get this from?  

According to Torah, one might suggest that the period of the judges could be the model to strive for rather than monarchy.   Once we started with kings, it was downhill after Solomon and fast.  But in either case, a Sanhedrin is an absolute must.   All successful governments are built on a balance of power.   Israel's current governing system is completely lacking in this regard and this explains many of the country's political woes from its founding until now.   It also helps to explain how the Israeli govt was able to become the tyrannical fascist (against Jews) entity that it is today.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

From what little I know, Jewish law leaves much flexibility in terms of determining a governing system for the nation.   

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The Davidic line did not dissappear.   Where do you get this from?

I agree. I have a friend (not on this forum) who is of the Davidic line.

[Zelhar]

First, I am secular and I would never agree to live under a religious rule. I would never give up willingly my civic rights and freedoms in favor of a theocratic, Monarchic or any other type of rule which takes away my vote.

This kind of attitude is the reason Israel's survival is stake. Far too many Israeli Jews have a secular, Westernized view of personal "rights" and entitlement. They would rather have the "right" to eat pork, kill their own unborn children, or work on the Sabbath than be safe from terrorism. But to answer this specific concern, Chaim has said before that a Jewish Torah state would not be a totalitarian regime. It would make sure basic moral principles of Judaism were followed (i.e. businesses would have to close for Shabbat, abortion would not be tolerated, etc.) and that's it.

Most people are concerned more with petty things and immediate needs and completely lack strategic thinking. But you have a point, Kahanists have a very tough time to reassure Israelis that they are not planning to install a Jewish version of Iran.

[Zelhar]

I specifically used the term 'disappeared' rather than 'died out'. Certainly there are living members of the Davidic line, but for no living Jew can it be proven beyond any doubt that he belongs to the Davidic line.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

First, I am secular and I would never agree to live under a religious rule. I would never give up willingly my civic rights and freedoms in favor of a theocratic, Monarchic or any other type of rule which takes away my vote.

This kind of attitude is the reason Israel's survival is stake. Far too many Israeli Jews have a secular, Westernized view of personal "rights" and entitlement. They would rather have the "right" to eat pork, kill their own unborn children, or work on the Sabbath than be safe from terrorism. But to answer this specific concern, Chaim has said before that a Jewish Torah state would not be a totalitarian regime. It would make sure basic moral principles of Judaism were followed (i.e. businesses would have to close for Shabbat, abortion would not be tolerated, etc.) and that's it.

Most people are concerned more with petty things and immediate needs and completely lack strategic thinking. But you have a point, Kahanists have a very tough time to reassure Israelis that they are not planning to install a Jewish version of Iran.

THe truth is you can't really "enforce" shabbat observance more than Israel already does to some extent.   Roads have to be kept open because if a woman is pregnant or hatzalah gets a call, or somebody has to be rushed to the hospital driven by car, etc... these things are all permitted on Shabbat.   The real key will be a non-self-hating Jewish education, which teaches Jewish belief, not in an atheist and mocking fashion but as a real living document (Torah, Tenakh), the way they would teach in an Orthodox school, whether people want to adopt the practices or not, at least giving over the Torah perspective to the youth.  In personal and national sense.  Over time people shown the beauty of Torah will take it up more.   Indoctrinating people with "nakba" and that all religion is just another side of the same coin, (ie equating muslim terrorists with all other religions including, l'havdil, Judaism)  and that the land we live on doesn't even belong to us, etc, only creates a more self hating and self destructive society with more and more leftists.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Nobody wants a Jewish Iran. The idea behind a Torah state, at least according to Chaim, would be an absolute upholding of basic religious principles (i.e. commerce on Shabbat, abortion, the presence of pork in Israel, absolutely no compromise on terrorism, etc.). I don't think any of the above should be offensive to any Jew who is at least centrist.

[Dr. Dan]

but then doesn't that type of theocracy sound like the way Iran does it?

I'm not sure what this discussion has to do with Iran.   Judaism doesn't strive toward what Islam does, sunni or shia, so what does Iran have to do with this?

Iran is a theocratic state which uses it's mullahs to approve 1 or 2 leaders for the people to choose.  IN Iran, however, this theocratic state is also a police type state...Will Israel, if it becomes a similar model govt with teh sanhedrin choosing two leaders and the people voting on the two, will they be living in a police state where in they can't do what they want to do in the privacy of their own home?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Again I don't see what Iran has to do with it.   Nobody aspires to be like a shiite mullah dictatorship.   That wasn't what the Jewish kingdoms were (in what little time we actually had national sovereignty over the foreign occupying powers), and it's not what it will be.    People use Iran as a boogey man of sorts.    The Jewish idea is either a good one or a bad one.   There's no sense in comparing it to an Islamic idea that sort of resembles it in one tiny fashion but is nothing alike.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

THe truth is you can't really "enforce" shabbat observance more than Israel already does to some extent.   Roads have to be kept open because if a woman is pregnant or hatzalah gets a call, or somebody has to be rushed to the hospital driven by car, etc... these things are all permitted on Shabbat.   The real key will be a non-self-hating Jewish education, which teaches Jewish belief, not in an atheist and mocking fashion but as a real living document (Torah, Tenakh), the way they would teach in an Orthodox school, whether people want to adopt the practices or not, at least giving over the Torah perspective to the youth.  In personal and national sense.  Over time people shown the beauty of Torah will take it up more.   Indoctrinating people with "nakba" and that all religion is just another side of the same coin, (ie equating muslim terrorists with all other religions including, l'havdil, Judaism)  and that the land we live on doesn't even belong to us, etc, only creates a more self hating and self destructive society with more and more leftists.

I think Chaim would agree to all of the above. I think the vast majority of religious Jews (i.e. excepting some of the more extreme haredim) would agree with it also. Chaim has never said that he wants to close all the roads or prevent people from attending to emergencies during Shabbat. He has said that he does think businesses should be required to close for Shabbat and that no pork should be tolerated in Israel, whatsoever--both of which I think are perfectly agreeable and fair. As far as I know, the concept of a modern Torah state does not include a "big brother" regime (i.e. the government monitoring what goes on in everyone's houses). Chaim would prefer, for instance, that Jews not own pets, but he would not make this a legal point, and I don't think any of the other voices who are seriously advocating a religious state would either.

[Zelhar]

There are other issues other than just Education and Shabbat. For example, would a Kahanist government enforce dress code and separation of sexes at the beach ? I can assure you, people will rise up and revolt if anyone tried to revoke this sacred beloved right of theirs.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The whole point of the Sanhedrin is that for 2000 years there has been no central Jewish religious authority on spiritual matters.   This rebbe and that rebbe, and this interpretation and that, and more and more confusion...... and all the while no illusion of any national existence.   Just fractionated communities.   And more and more sheeplike behavior and defenselessness in the face of angry hoardes of antisemites (the curse of the galut).  

JudeanonCapta's audio files in the Torah section explain some of this well - Rav Bar Chayim's shiur entitled "the breakdown of the halachic system."    Being a rabbi requires courage.   There will need to be enough immensely scholarly and righteous (middos included) chachamim with enough courage to reconstitute the Sanhedrin.   At that point legally binding decisions can be made about how to apply the Torah law on the national level.  Ie - how to run an army, an electrical grid, etc  etc.   All the modern concerns that must be approached within the framework of Jewish law and the scholarly interpretation of what the Torah permits and what it forbids.  No more saying everyone is correct and valid and no decision can be made either way because I can't disagree with this one and can't disagree with that one and we can't be a nation until moschiach and G-d does it all for us.  No more of that.  

 It's not about what an everyday Shlomo has in his possession or in his house or what he can do.   It's about establishing the parameters to renew Jewish national existence in a faith based framework.   And the Sanhedrin doesn't elect mouthpiece puppets like the shiite fanatics (again, I don't dignify this with a comparison to the nazi Iranian Muslim mullahs, but you keep insisting).   The Sanhedrin is a balance of power with the executive branch, whether it's "nasi," king, set of judges, or what have you.  

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

There are other issues other than just Education and Shabbat. For example, would a Kahanist government enforce dress code and separation of sexes at the beach ? I can assure you, people will rise up and revolt if anyone tried to revoke this sacred beloved right of theirs.

Chaim has said that he would not try to do this.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

There are other issues other than just Education and Shabbat. For example, would a Kahanist government enforce dress code and separation of sexes at the beach ? I can assure you, people will rise up and revolt if anyone tried to revoke this sacred beloved right of theirs.

I don't think you could do that.   It already happens in religious areas by request of the religious (ie, they have separate facilities supplied for them in addition to the mixed areas).  There's no way you can impose this on a society unless a society arranged it themselves and people suddenly started going to separate areas.   Any kind of change like this to societal fabric would only occur of its own volition over a long period of time.

[Zelhar]

I don't think either that this is what Kahanists plan to Israel (But perhaps the Charedim do).

 But lets discuss the biggest issue- it is the Judicial system. Chaim wants to replace the supreme court with the Sanhedrin. I don't really know what type of judicial system he proposes. I suppose it is some kind of a hybrid Torah-Secular legal system with Torah law prevailing in cases of conflict. This is going to be a real mess...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

With those concerned about a king having too much power, thus being corrupt. In the perfect Torah system it would not happen becuase the king himself has to follow the Torah, and if a King makes rulings that are agains't the Torah then his orders are not followed. A Jewish king is not above the law, and thus he would be subject to the rules as all of us, although he would be given certain privlidges (as do usual rulers have) and certain obligations. Also with the Sanhedrin it is a system of checks and balances where the King does give his word, but the Sanhedrin can step in and object or correct what is wrong and/or agains't the Torah.
 In general this topic is very big (a Jewish government), but thier are different places to learn a little about it (for example Rav Kahane also includes a chaper on the government of Eretz Yisrael).

  Also C.F.- No Haredim would not close roads on Shabb-t becuase roads are needed for ambulences (I guess, unless their is another system or something, but everyone holds by Pikuah Nefesh- the saving of a life overrides Shabb-t).
 
 Also about beaches- a complete Jewish gov. would definitly seperate people. But maybe a transitionary type of government would maybe be a little reluctant not to cause a revolution or something, or not to push it too much where it would then be all or nothing. But definitly I believe that with time their would be a great Jewish nation and the Halacha would be enforced to a certain extent at least.