Chaim mentions an ideal govt for Jews would be a righteous monarch

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Also about beaches- a complete Jewish gov. would definitly seperate people.

How?   And by what legal precedent in Jewish law?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Also about beaches- a complete Jewish gov. would definitly seperate people.

How?   And by what legal precedent in Jewish law?

 What do you mean? Dont you know how women are dressed at beaches? Obviously its not modest for Jewish women to be half naked in front of other men.
  I dont know if their is an example from history, because in history it was assumed for a women to be dressed modestly and not show skin in front of other men. If a women would dress the way many dress and act today she would be concidered like a prostitute. (The Gemarah calls a lady who if fully dressed, but has a bell on her shoes- in order to draw attention from guys a prostitute- so you think a lady wearing a bikini in front of other men would be okay?)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

so you think a lady wearing a bikini in front of other men would be okay?)

I never said it was ok; you made an inappropriate inference.   Of course it's not "ok," but that's besides the point isn't it?   

You haven't answered how.   And in terms of historical example, yes people in general were more tznius in their attire back then but what do you think happened when someone transgressed it?   Or if there was an actual prostitute?    Did they police it?  And if so, what example from the gemara?   And if so, how?  Practically speaking how is it possible especially given a scenario when its so very common nowadays.  It's not an exceptional case for women to dress immodestly, in general society.   I just don't see how this can be policed.  People have to be convinced and come to their own decisions for the better, but to police it?   I'm skeptical.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

"It's not an exceptional case for women to dress immodestly, in general society."

 That's why I said with time

[Masha]

Zelhar, I can see your point. But I am gradually coming to a conclusion that in order to save Israel we need a Jewish Ahmadinejad. And I mean in in a good sense. We need someone absolutely crazy (in a good way, again) who would be willing to risk starting a nuclear war because he would be absolutely convinced that G-d would not allow Israel to perish. Rational leaders will not save us now. We need someone irrational (again, in a good sense). A total fanatic. Only then do we stand a chance.

[judeanoncapta]

That's the definition for monarchy. And I hope we never have this form of government in Israel.

You already do. The Chief Justice of the Bagatz is as powerful as any monarch would be, perhaps more.

[judeanoncapta]

I don't think either that this is what Kahanists plan to Israel (But perhaps the Charedim do).

 But lets discuss the biggest issue- it is the Judicial system. Chaim wants to replace the supreme court with the Sanhedrin. I don't really know what type of judicial system he proposes. I suppose it is some kind of a hybrid Torah-Secular legal system with Torah law prevailing in cases of conflict. This is going to be a real mess...

The Bagatz today is the real mess. A permanent leftist oligarchy that rules ever aspect of Israeli life. Which also has the right to choose it's next member ensuring the permanent tyrannical rule of Israel by a leftist elite.

This is what you get when you reject the Torah, you become a slave.

Enjoy Tzippi Livni, by the way. She is a great example of what your secular culture produces.

[judeanoncapta]

There are other issues other than just Education and Shabbat. For example, would a Kahanist government enforce dress code and separation of sexes at the beach ? I can assure you, people will rise up and revolt if anyone tried to revoke this sacred beloved right of theirs.

The fact that you have the nerve to call this "sacred" is quite revolting. Israeli girls dress like whores and you don't care about the honor of the jewish people. You just want your "sacred" right to behave like a pagan. Disgusting, Zellhar.

[Zelhar]

Zelhar, I can see your point. But I am gradually coming to a conclusion that in order to save Israel we need a Jewish Ahmadinejad. And I mean in in a good sense. We need someone absolutely crazy (in a good way, again) who would be willing to risk starting a nuclear war because he would be absolutely convinced that G-d would not allow Israel to perish. Rational leaders will not save us now. We need someone irrational (again, in a good sense). A total fanatic. Only then do we stand a chance.

So sorry but I think irrationality is always a bad choice. If you meant for a a leader who can play an unpredictable zealot, than I agree sometimes there is a merit in such act, as long as it is a calculated act. I support a Jewish leadership to Israel because indeed the would stick to their principles whilst the secular leadership wouldn't, it has been proven too many times unfortunately. But I don't think Judaism encourages irrational behavior.

[Zelhar]

@JudeaNonCapta:

The fact that you have the nerve to call this "sacred" is quite revolting. Israeli girls dress like whores and you don't care about the honor of the jewish people. You just want your "sacred" right to behave like a pagan. Disgusting, Zellhar.

I used a measure of cynicism, and I implied that this right is sacred to the secular public who loves attending the beaches in minimal dress; this is more sacred to some people, not just a few,  than for example Jewish sovereignty in the Machpela, even the Temple mount. My personal opinion is that Israeli girls have every right to dress "like whores".

The Bagatz today is the real mess. A permanent leftist oligarchy that rules ever aspect of Israeli life. Which also has the right to choose it's next member ensuring the permanent tyrannical rule of Israel by a leftist elite.

I think that the Bagatz as we know it today should be canceled. I was raising an important point though. What would happen to the legal system if the Sanhedrin replaces the Bagatz- Is that mean that all the lawyers in Israel would lose their job and be replaced by Yeshiva guys ? When will the civic law be used and when will the Talmudic law be used ? And of course I don't think the Israeli public would agree to such act.

This is what you get when you reject the Torah, you become a slave.

I am not a slave. Israeli Jews have made very bad choices though, and they rip what they saw...

Enjoy Tzippi Livni, by the way. She is a great example of what your secular culture produces.

We are both on the same boat, and Livni is trying to sink us both.

[Manch]

Muslims stole and perverted everything that came from Jewish people so of course the Muslims do it wrong and in an evil way. A Jewish monarchy would be different. It would be the genuine article.

History proves otherwise. Most Heirs to the Throne of David were not following his footsteps. Even worse were the Hasmonai rulers, each generation more wicked and stupid than the preceding one. And I wouldn't like to use the usurper dynasties who ruled over the Kingdom of Israel after King Solomon...

I am a republican right to the marrow of my bones and can't think of a more flawed form of government than a monarchy - I can't stand the concept of governing inheritance. I don't think that there is an alternative to democracy in a Greek or Roman style - only citizens who pay taxes, serve in the army can vote and serve. I think a president of Israel is an appropriate head of state.
 

[judeanoncapta]

I used a measure of cynicism, and I implied that this right is sacred to the secular public who loves attending the beaches in minimal dress; this is more sacred to some people, not just a few,  than for example Jewish sovereignty in the Machpela, even the Temple mount. My personal opinion is that Israeli girls have every right to dress "like whores".

Thank God that people who feel this way are having so few children. And we are having atleast 8 on average. We own the future.

I think that the Bagatz as we know it today should be canceled. I was raising an important point though. What would happen to the legal system if the Sanhedrin replaces the Bagatz- Is that mean that all the lawyers in Israel would lose their job and be replaced by Yeshiva guys ? When will the civic law be used and when will the Talmudic law be used ? And of course I don't think the Israeli public would agree to such act.

What the Israeli secular public would agree to is completely irrelevant. They will cease to be the majority in 50 years. Maybe even less.

Either way, the Israeli legal system is worse than any legal system in the western world. A system where you can be held without trial indefinitely, A system where you can be sued without your knowledge. A system that is nothing more than leftovers from the Ottoman and British Occupations. This system is rotting from the core. In a Jewish state, Jewish law prevails. There is no such thing as civic law. A Sanhedrin is simply a high court of Justice whose constitution is Torat Moshe. It rulings and laws ARE the civic laws.

As far as lawyers losing their jobs, I don't know why you think that is so terrible. But it's not true, anyway. They would just have to learn to play in a new ballpark. It will take some adjustment but I'm sure they will make it.

We are both on the same boat, and Livni is trying to sink us both.

True and she is able to do so because we are so divided as a people.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I have to agree with Judeanoncapta here 100%. Virtually every single social problem in both America and Israel today exist because the majority of the publics of both nations have rejected G-d and the teachings of the Torah and Christian Bible in favor of the "enlightened" ideals of post-Renaissance Europe--namely, the false "rights" and entitlements of secular, humanistic philosophy. For the Christians who might be reading this, here is a verse from the N.T. that illustrates exactly what I intend; my apologies if this is at all troublesome to Jewish readers, but I still think the point of it can be had and agreed upon:

They exchanged G-d's truth for a lie and worshipped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever.

I do think Zelhar might have intended his "sacred right to wear bikinis" comment to be taken tongue-in-cheek, but in any event, it's tragic that people do really feel that way. It's nothing less than abominable that Israelis seem to think that the "right" to wear bikinis in public is greater than the right to live and not be blown to pieces by modern-day Canaanite and Philistine savages. We have an Israeli Supreme Court that has all but imposed sharia on the Holy Land; can the secularists in this thread really say that a Torah king would be more oppressive than what we have now?

[q_q_]

A flexible practical leader like rabbi kahane, as oppose to a monarchy, would be more comfortable.. I don't think he would thought of going for a monarchy any time soon , and he wouldn't even have wanted to scare people with the idea.  He said we are a sick people, and things have to be gradual, and he wouldn't want a civil war.

The way I see it. Since Israel is not meant to be a hebrew speaking portugal, it's a religious place and concept.  If an oppressive jewish religious regime takes hold of it, enforcing halacha in public, then that's fine with me.  I think anybody that doesn't like it should leave.(and if you like it a little bit then come as a tourist)
But rabbi kahane wouldn't have wanted such enforcement like that, not when it's not accepted.

note- the reality is changing with a religious majourity, rabbi kahane never really wrote about that reality. He only dealt with the immediate reality, unfortunately.

Now, although rabbi kahane didn't want enforcement if it would lead to civil war..  he would have started with a ban on intermarriage, and i'm sure some other halachic imperatives, in public.
Not total freedom to act against the torah in public.

Any religious jew, from non zionist to religious zionist, would say, that Israel is like the Kings palace, and one has to be on one's best behaviour there. Rabbi Kahane mentioned G-d's wrath, and we don't want that. Sinning in israel is extra bad and extra dangerous.
In primary school we had this really fanatical rabbi that would punish all of us for the sin of one person. And he would say -it's like a we're all in a boat and somebody starts drilling a hole in it-  I think there's a gemara about that, to do with how G-d punishes us.  The fact is that G-d punishes us like that. He also rewards us like that though.
Ezekiel Chapter 36, if I recall, (I read it once when I heard rabbi kahane quote from it in his speech to noachides). On my reading of it, and these aren't the verses of subject that rabbi kahane discussed, G-d put us in Galus because it's better that we sin in Galus than we sin in Israel, defiling the holy land.

Infact, some of the most extreme anti zionists take the position that Israel is SO holy, that it is too holy for regular religious jews.  Only the greatest of the generation can live there!! Like the RAMBAM or Rashi or RAMBAN.  Not even they themselves. Their argument was that the generation thrown out were far greater than us, and even they were thrown out.

Note- Judea in his program I think stated that the generation thrown out were worse than us, idolators and stuff.. something like that.. and they were still blessed with prophecy. (stated possible reason from shabbetai ben dov, as that they were normal and understood that we are a people in our land) I may have misremembered a bit but there was something like that. Hopefully he's reading!.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

"Thank G-d that people who feel this way are having so few children. And we are having atleast 8 on average. We own the future."

 B"H, but at the same time we never know what they will throw at us next. Never underestimate the enemy. I think you know, that they know this reality and they do not like it (infact everything that happens till today is largly a result of that). They could import more goyim from Russia and from other places, G-d forbid.
 Also believe me this could be a possibility expecially because America will go down completly very soon- that many of those reform, and not only that, but those who are not Jewish completly but who said they converted, or have a Jewish great great grandfather, or something like that would be let into Israel, because they- the secular entity knows that it will keep them in power longer. Infact I just learned that Ariel Sharon- is NOT a Jew becuase his mother had a fake "conversion". And then we wonder how someone who is the leader of Israel, how can they be soo cruel to the nation of Israel, like Amalik?

  - And with the issue of inforcing Torah, after what I just wrote, i'm thinking about maybe that it should be done at a much quicker rate. Those who stay- are the best of the best. Those who leave- are those who cannot take it, and even better becuase they are more likly to be a liability, and only hurt the Nation of Israel.

[Dr. Dan]

Also about beaches- a complete Jewish gov. would definitly seperate people.

How?   And by what legal precedent in Jewish law?

 What do you mean? Dont you know how women are dressed at beaches? Obviously its not modest for Jewish women to be half naked in front of other men.
  I dont know if their is an example from history, because in history it was assumed for a women to be dressed modestly and not show skin in front of other men. If a women would dress the way many dress and act today she would be concidered like a prostitute. (The Gemarah calls a lady who if fully dressed, but has a bell on her shoes- in order to draw attention from guys a prostitute- so you think a lady wearing a bikini in front of other men would be okay?)

only if she isn't wearing a bell on her sandles it's fine by me 

[Dr. Dan]

I think that in regards to modesty, male and female, it is something that has to be taught and change with time...it's not something one can force on people..look at what has happened Iran forcing women to wear what they wear?  Drugs are everywhere..prostitution and promiscuous sex is everywhere!

Gd forbid that happen in Torah state...but I know the rabbis chosen for the San Hedrin would be thoughtful and compassionate enough to understand human nature...Chaim has the right idea with a gradual change in society..

Just the part about a monarchy..one single person for the rest of his life ruling over a nation...righteous or not...there are better options...I like the idea of a state that has Torah as law...but for the interpreters and usurpers of these laws...they can't be the type the scare people like myself and zelhar away..they can't be shas type Jews...They ahve to be people who understand human nature with proper compassion and tough love...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

 "they can't be the type the scare people like myself and zelhar away..they can't be shas type Jews...They ahve to be people who understand human nature with proper compassion and tough love..."
 
  Who do you want a real Rabbi or Reform? Or even many of the ones today- the generation of the dog, where they have to look back at their "masters"- the people, or the wealthy people, politicians, etc. and then say what they do, many times fearing about the consequences of what they say- they wont be popular, they will loose $, or even a good reason, but still not good enough- they will possibly turn people off by telling the truth.
 
  The last sentence here you contradict. First you make it seem that you really want reform. Or someone who maybe says nice stories, etc. but no one serious, no one who would actually wake you up and by the influence make you change. And then you say tough love.
 
  Anyway I dont think that it would really be a long time between for example their taking of power by religious people (who seriously love G-d) and people changing for the better. Becuase once religious people will take over, Torah will flow all over the land. Everyone will have greater exposure to Torah- whether its in school, in the community, in the army, all over. Today in Israel many of these things are greatly restricted, and heavily regulated. They purposly make it very difficult for Rabbis to speak to the public. For example to go to a high school, or to the army, its almost impossible.
  I think that we need to expose more Jews to the Torah. And yes, even to the "fanatical Rabbis", becuase they are the ones who would and do actually make people change for the better. They awaken the soul that is in a slumber.

[Masha]

But I don't think Judaism encourages irrational behavior.

What I mean by "irrational" is "irrational by secular standards." A secular person believes in compromise. He plans and calculates according to human reason. A religious Jew also uses reason. But his reason rests on G-d' promises. He believes that he has to do what the commandments demand of him. He will not compromise on important principles (he might pretend to do so, perhaps, for tactical reasons). He therefore will not allow himself to be blackmailed. And from a distance it might look like an irrational stance.

[Maccabi]

are boys supposed to dress modestly all the time?

are shorts allowed?

I have seen young religious boys riding their bikes around in full black pants, jacket, hat garb and it seemed a bit unnatural.

When I was a kid, how could I go out and explore nature and have fun in black pants and a dress jacket? It seems a bit stilted.

Is this even authentic Judaism?

I think the debate is not whether authentic Judaism is correct, but whether these 'real rabbis' are interpreting Jewish standards of modesty correctly at all.

You think girls dressing trashy is bad? I agree...Many Jewish girls I've seen have styles that are atrocious and unclassy. 

I prefer not to see women in very short items of clothing...(well I don't mind too much if they look good, but it makes me less attracted to them because they would probably not be a good type of pilegesh or wife material)

I personally prefer a girl who is somewhat modest (not wigs and head covering all the time) but maybe one who covers most of her legs. 

However, you cannot legislate personal taste or minhag. 

Minhag is not halacha is it?

Maybe it was in exile when communities wanted to remain separate...But I can understand an angry reaction to people who think those minhags should be eternal law in the land of Israel. 

I won't say that they're idiots for dressing like that all the time...I respect some of the people who wear these outfits, certainly many are of great spiritual caliber...but I don't think I will ever change or see that as the correct way.

If someone can cite a clear, authoritative verse in early Judaism (which is the 'real Judaism') that says people should dress like this, that men should walk around in suits and hats all day and even hike Masada in them in 105 degree heat, I will listen.  But until I hear something like this, I will reject it as absolute galus mentality, grade-A B.S.

So yes, I think compromise is in order.  I think both sides have galus mentalities and both are wrong...The secularists got overly trashy from galus and the religious got overly modest.

[Zelhar]

can the secularists in this thread really say that a Torah king would be more oppressive than what we have now?

Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)

9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.

[Dr. Dan]

"they can't be the type the scare people like myself and zelhar away..they can't be shas type Jews...They ahve to be people who understand human nature with proper compassion and tough love..."
 
  Who do you want a real Rabbi or Reform? Or even many of the ones today- the generation of the dog, where they have to look back at their "masters"- the people, or the wealthy people, politicians, etc. and then say what they do, many times fearing about the consequences of what they say- they wont be popular, they will loose $, or even a good reason, but still not good enough- they will possibly turn people off by telling the truth.
 
  The last sentence here you contradict. First you make it seem that you really want reform. Or someone who maybe says nice stories, etc. but no one serious, no one who would actually wake you up and by the influence make you change. And then you say tough love.
 
  Anyway I dont think that it would really be a long time between for example their taking of power by religious people (who seriously love G-d) and people changing for the better. Becuase once religious people will take over, Torah will flow all over the land. Everyone will have greater exposure to Torah- whether its in school, in the community, in the army, all over. Today in Israel many of these things are greatly restricted, and heavily regulated. They purposly make it very difficult for Rabbis to speak to the public. For example to go to a high school, or to the army, its almost impossible.
  I think that we need to expose more Jews to the Torah. And yes, even to the "fanatical Rabbis", becuase they are the ones who would and do actually make people change for the better. They awaken the soul that is in a slumber.

Tzvi, if were a Rabbi, you would be the last person I would want..no offense..you don't understand human nature..you think the world is a bubble..you are a real fanatical Jew who might know books, but doesn't know world...

And absolutely no Reform rabbis either..

There are Orthodox and maybe certain Conservative Rabbis who get it...who know how to talk to people like me and Zelhar..These are the ones that belong high up.

[Zelhar]

May be there is a need for a two-state solution- a religious Judea and a secular Israel.

[Dr. Dan]

May be there is a need for a two-state solution- a religious Judea and a secular Israel.

no..maybe all Jews need to learn to suck it up and get along wtih eaach other and love one another...For the religious to see secular live the way they live and raise their fists is almost a type of jealousy..and for the secular to raise their fists at the religious at the way they try to impose good things on them is almost  a type of jealousy.

NOBODY GETS IT!!!!!  We are all brothers and sisters!!! 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Zelhar, surely you are joking here. Otherwise, you just insulted the entire movement. Your saying that Kahanism would install an idol-worshipping king is nothing short of an abomination. I urge you to repent of such blasphemy.