Author Topic: Definition of "Serbophobia".  (Read 14899 times)

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Offline knindza87

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Definition of "Serbophobia".
« on: October 05, 2008, 05:27:43 AM »
Serbophobia, or Anti-Serb sentiment, is a term used to describe a sentiment of hostility or hatred towards Serbs or Serbia.
          The term was used in the literary and cultural circles since before World War I: Croatian writers Antun Gustav Matoš and Miroslav Krleža had casually described some political and cultural figures as "Serbophobes" (Krleža in the four volume "Talks with Miroslav Krleža", 1985., edited by Enes Čengić), meaning that they perceived an anti-Serbian animus in a person's behavior.

Acin-Kosta, Milos in his book Draza Mihailovic i Ravna Gora dedicates a section of his book to Serbophobia during World War II.

In the 1986 draft Memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts Serbophobia is mentioned.[1]

Cadik Danon, Chief Rabbi of Yugoslavia et al. in an open letter[2] to the American Jewish Committee in 1995, during the bombing of Republika Srpska by NATO during Bosnian War, wrote of a background of,"... unrestrained anti-Serbian propaganda, raging during all this war, following the Nazi model, but much more efficient means and in a much more sophisticated and more expensive way. ... Even American Jews were not able to withstand this propagandistic poison,... they did not recognize the Nazis and racist nature of the Serbophobic dogma. They did not identify Serbophobia as a twin sister of anti-semitism ...".

*****Instances of Serbophobia*****

According to those who use the term, Serbophobia can range from individual hatred to institutionalised persecution.

    * An example of Serbophobia is the jingle Alle Serben müssen sterben (All Serbs Must Die), which was popular in Vienna in 1914  (also occurring as: Serbien muß sterbien).

    * That use of the term "Vlah", as well as the use of the word "Chetnik" as a derogatory designation for anything connected to Serbs (rather than a paramilitary as in its standard meaning) has occurred in modern times, during and after the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s ([1]. The word shkije (sub-human) in the Albanian language is a derogatory word for Serbs .

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia submitted to the The International Court of Justice[4] in 1997 claims that acts of genocide against Serbs had been incited by

    * a 'Patriotic Song' which read as follows:'Dear mother, I'm going to plant willows, We'll hang Serbs from them. Dear mother, I'm going to sharpen knives, We'll soon fill pits again.'[4]
    * the publishing in a newspaper of, "Each Muslim must name a Serb and take oath to kill him."[4]
    * the radio broadcast of "public calls for the execution of Serbs".[4]

These claims were later ruled inadmissable by the ICJ.[citation needed]

    * nationalist Croats use to shout the slogan "Kill the Serb" frequently during public events, most notable during Marko Perković Thompson's concerts.

*****Criticism*****

Critics associate the use of the term Serbophobia with the politics of Serbian nationalist victimization of late 1980s and 1990s as described, for example, by Christopher Bennett. According to him, Serbian nationalist politicians have made associations to Serbian "martyrdom" in history (from the Battle of Kosovo in 1389 to the genocide during World War II) to justify Serbian politics of the 1980s and 1990s; these associations are allegedly exemplified in Slobodan Milošević's Gazimestan speech at Kosovo in 1989. The reaction to the speech as well as the use of the associated term Serbophobia is a matter of heated debate even today.[7]

In late 1988, months before the Revolutions of 1989, Milosevic accused critics of his regime and political tactics like the Slovenian leader Milan Kucan of “spreading fear of Serbia”.[8]

According to political scientist David Bruce Macdonald, the term was popularised in the 1980s and 1990s during the re-analysis of Serbian history.[9] The term was often likened to anti-Semitism, and expressed itself as a re-analysis of history where every event that had a negative effect on the Serbs was likened to a "tragedy".[9] Often associated with the politics of Serbian victimization of late 1980s and 1990s[10].

But the criticism is unfounded - because only in NDH, in WWII, the Croatian Ustashe killed over a million of Serbs, mostly in the extermination camp system "Jasenovac", where about 800,000 Serbs, Jews and Gypsies were killed in the most gruesome ways. On 25 Serbs, 1 Jew was killed, on 150 Serbs, one Gypsy was murdered. The word 'genocide' was first mentioned in the British press, to describe what the Turks did to the civilian population of Serbia, around the town of Nis, before the Battle of Deligrad.


Source : Wikipedia

Offline DALMACIJA

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2008, 05:48:00 AM »


WW1 German, Austrian and Vatican politic:
Serbien muss sterbien.
Translation: Serbia must die

The program of Germany, Austrohungarian Empire, again with blessing form the Vatican, included the destruction of royal Serbia and the biological extermination of the Orthodox Serbs at the Balkans.

In 1914, the first European extermination camps were opened in order to exterminate the Serbs! Result: Serbia had lost 40% of its population.

WW2 Croatia, which occupied the territories of today's Croatia and Bosnia & Herzegovina, also with blessings from the Vatican, started to exterminated the Serbs and this time also Jews.  Result: 1 million Serb civilians were murdered due communist and fascist terror.

Period 1990 - 1995, Croatian-Muslim coalition started to conduct the 3d genocide over the Orthodox Serbs in that century.
Result: All Serbs are expelled from Western Bosnia & Hercegovina, Krajina and Croatia.


Let me remind you that I am only talking about the extermination of the Serbs which took place during the 20 century.

Offline DALMACIJA

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2008, 06:14:30 AM »
Nije lako biti Srbin - Being a Serb is not easy.


Please Serbs listen good to the content of the song...

Offline Pescarii

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2008, 11:03:52 AM »
What information do you have on WWI actions in Serbia? You mentioned the first European concentration camps.
Never underestimate human error. You may erroneously assume a different location but the magnitude is still beyond human comprehension.

Offline DALMACIJA

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2008, 11:19:39 AM »
What information do you have on WWI actions in Serbia? You mentioned the first European concentration camps.

You in teh West are not learing real history thats why you do not know that the first European death camps were organized by Austro-Hungarian Empire against Orthodox Serbs, mostly in Hungary. Once you had also Serbian Orthodox communities in Hungary. Today there are no more Serbs in Hungary.

You had also Serbs in Germany  - Luzicki Srbi - where those Serbs called.
They disappeared also...

Offline knindza87

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2008, 12:23:24 PM »
   Lusatian Sorbs/Serbs did not disappeared ,they live even today in Lusatia,parts of Germany and Poland with population of around 50,000.I will go back to them later on.
   Referring to ww1 prisoner camps,they were different from ww2 death camps for being mainly populated with captured soldiers  which were treated poorly like not feed ,being tortured and killed.There was other ways of expressing anti-Serb sentiment on civilians,Austria-Hungary/Germany soldiers made executions on spot,Austrian soldiers didn't spared even women and children.I'll try to link some pictures from executions.There is even an video described Anti-Serbian sentiment popular among Austro-Hungarians. Here is the link :

Offline DALMACIJA

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2008, 12:52:47 PM »
   Lusatian Sorbs/Serbs did not disappeared ,they live even today in Lusatia,parts of Germany and Poland with population of around 50,000.I will go back to them later on.

Are those Serbs today Orthodox? They are not, I think?
If they do not speak Serbian and if they are not Orthodox anymore, than they have disappeared...right?

Do you think that in the past the Lusatian Serbs were a strong Orthodox civilization?
I have not done some research about them. I think that they were cleansed, murdered or converted by Germans...

Offline DALMACIJA

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2008, 12:54:54 PM »
    Here is the link :

Thanks for sharing the truth brother...

Do you know were I can find English text which describes how the Serbs had defeated and stopped the AustroHungarian Empire when it attacked Serbia for the first time, somewhere in 1914?

Do you know that every military school of this world is today teaching to it’s soldiers that Serbian military tactic from WW1? Because the Serbs had such a good strategy which had blocked the first attempted of the much more powerful army of AustroHungary Empire.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 01:01:19 PM by DALMACIJA »

Offline knindza87

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2008, 12:55:19 PM »
Sorbs (Upper Sorbian: Serbja; Lower Sorbian: Serby) also known as Wends, Lusatian Sorbs or Lusatian Serbs, are a Slavic people settled in Lusatia, a region on the territory of Germany and Poland.

Sorbs are divided into two groups:

    * Upper Sorbs, who speak Upper Sorbian (about 40,000 people)
    * Lower Sorbs, who speak Lower Sorbian (about 20,000 people).

The dialects spoken vary in intelligibility in different areas.Their number is dramatically reduced through centuries due Germanization and Polonization.One Sorb had important role in Serbian Army through WW1.His name was Pavle Jurišić Šturm.

                                                      Biography

Pavle Jurisic(Serbian Cyrillic: Павле Јуришић Штурм) (August 8, 1848 – January 14, 1922) was a Serbian general of Sorbian origin who commanded the Serbian 3rd Army in the First World War.

Šturm was one of the most important commanders in the Serbian army in the World War I, especially during the first two years of the war, the time when his 3rd army was main support either for the 2nd army during the battle of Cer, or for the 1st army during the battle of Kolubara.

Life

Šturm was born and raised in Görlitz, Prussian Silesia, although the Görlitz region was part of the homeland of the Sorbs. His parents were both ethnic Sorbs, and his name on German papers was Paulus Sturm, while his Polish name was Pavle/Pawel. He finished the military academy in Breslau (Wrocław) and went to Serbia before the Balkan wars to fight the Ottoman Turks, studying in the Serbian military academy and volunteering in the Serbian Army.

He fell in love with Serbia instantly, marrying a Serbian woman, and changed his name from Pavel to Serbian Pavle, and his last name Sturm to the typical Serbian last name that was modulated translation of his German last name - Sturm, meaning "Storm" in German was translated into Jurišić, with the root of the word "charge" ("juriš" in Serbian ).

Šturm kept his German last name as an alias. His son, who he had with his Serbian wife, was a sergeant officer in the Serbian army, and he passed all major battles in World War I, from Cer and Kolubara, and then retreated over frozen Albania, the resurrection of the Serbian army on the island of Corfu, and the charge of the Serbian army, breaking the Salonika front.

Šturm defeated the Bulgarian army at Vardar river and River Crna that led to the Bulgarian capitulation. He then retook all the major cities and returned to Serbia, defeating August von Mackensen's army and chasing German armies further to the north, even after the triumphal entering in the capital Belgrade.

After years of peace that followed, Šturm stayed in Serbia and the Serbian army with the rank of major. He died 1922 in his home in Belgrade.

After his death

When Germany invaded Yugoslavia in World War II, the first organized armed rebellion was conducted by the circle of officers led by Chetnik general Draža Mihajlović.

The Germans had spread their nets to catch the rebels' leader, and once they had them surrounded on the estate of one of the officers. Together with the Chetnik leaders of rebellion was Šturm's son. In the moment when the rebels started to shoot and intended to break the siege, his son took the coat of Mihajlović, forcing the Germans to follow him, thinking that he was the rebellion leader they came to catch. By the time they had realised the deception, it was too late, as Mihajlović had fled.

The Germans took Šturm's son to the Gestapo and interrogated him. When he told them that he was the son of Pavle Jurišić, they wanted to release him, because of his father's origin in Germany. But, he took this as an insult and stood up and yelled:" If I even had German blood in me, that German blood had leaked out of me on Salonika front! I am Serb!" A couple hours later, he stood in front of the firing squad, yelling the famous Chetnik salute: "Long live the King! Long live Motherland Serbia!"

I must make note that this last info was disputed,due it was believed that this was son of Zivojin Misic(Also one great WW1  General,his war tactics are being studied at West Point to this day)

Offline knindza87

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2008, 01:03:00 PM »
Sorbs are not Orthodox simply because they never came in contact with Byzantine influence like us the Balkan Serbs,they were on border between Germany and Poland so they were influenced by Catholic church.Don't forget that Serbs like all Slavic peoples were pagans and we converted to Christianity in 7th century.That was before Great Schism.Back than there was not major differences between Orthodox or Catholic church.

Offline DALMACIJA

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2008, 01:07:15 PM »
Don't forget that Serbs like all Slavic peoples were pagans and we converted to Christianity in 7th century.

Do you really believe this?
I have my doubts about this...

One question to you brother:
Do you think that it is true that the Serbs just arrived at the Balkans in the 6 th century? This is teached in the West about the Serbs, and the communists were instroducing this "histrory" in Serbian schools during Yugoslavia?

Offline DALMACIJA

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2008, 01:11:31 PM »
Back than there was not major differences between Orthodox or Catholic church.

I agree before 1054 there was just one Church.

Sorbs are not Orthodox simply because they never came in contact with Byzantine influence like us the Balkan Serbs,they were on border between Germany and Poland so they were influenced by Catholic church.

Well, if they lost Orthodoxy (because before 1054 whole Europe was Orthodox)
than they were I assume exposed to the forced convertions, which were normal after 1054.

Do you know that once there was alsoa strong Serbian Orthodox civilization in today's Hungary? Even today you can find remains of this Serbian civilization...

Offline knindza87

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2008, 01:20:38 PM »
Well yeah I got doubts in "German version of history" and Slavic migrations from todays Ukraine,but I believe in migrations.Recent new discoveries of Vinca civilization of Danube region,that makes new theory about settling Europe,it says that whole Europe was settled by settlers from Vinca from United Kingdom to Eastern Russia.But thats just theory  ;D I don't want to start debate about that,it can last like for ever. :P I'm always open minded for theories but I'm satisfied and proud on last 1500 years of our history.I don't need to go back to beginning of the world. :P  

Offline knindza87

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2008, 01:24:39 PM »
Back than there was not major differences between Orthodox or Catholic church.

I agree before 1054 there was just one Church.

Sorbs are not Orthodox simply because they never came in contact with Byzantine influence like us the Balkan Serbs,they were on border between Germany and Poland so they were influenced by Catholic church.

Well, if they lost Orthodoxy (because before 1054 whole Europe was Orthodox)
than they were I assume exposed to the forced convertions, which were normal after 1054.

Do you know that once there was alsoa strong Serbian Orthodox civilization in today's Hungary? Even today you can find remains of this Serbian civilization...

There was no conversion of Sorbs,because Catholic influence was only influence they were exposed.But they preserved Slavic origin,costums,customs and name Serbs even when they were exposed to Germanization.

Offline DALMACIJA

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2008, 01:31:48 PM »
Well yeah I got doubts in "German version of history" and Slavic migrations from todays Ukraine,but I believe in migrations.Recent new discoveries of Vinca civilization of Danube region,that makes new theory about settling Europe,it says that whole Europe was settled by settlers from Vinca from United Kingdom to Eastern Russia.But thats just theory  ;D I don't want to start debate about that,it can last like for ever. :P I'm always open minded for theories but I'm satisfied and proud on last 1500 years of our history.I don't need to go back to beginning of the world. :P  

Well we were learning wrong history in ex communist Yugoslavia my brother.

The Serbs are the autochthones of the Balkans and they did not came just in the 6 th century somewhere from Siberia at the Balkans.

Almost all other nations at the Balkans were because of circumstances separated from the Serbs. The Serbs are at least the oldest nation of the Balkans, with one of the oldest tradition and civilization. Look how many nations were formed out the Serbs, only recently.

The West was wrong when they claimed that we Serbs just in the 6 th arrived from Siberia at the Balkans. No, that is false theory we are the natives of Europe and not some trespassers.

You see the West uses false history to remove the autochthonic rights from the Slavs.
False history is one of Vatican's strongest weapons.

I agree our recent history is very great.

But I do not know, we were for 50 years long brain washed by the  foreign factor.
You must read about Serbian history before the New Age.

Offline knindza87

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2008, 01:32:25 PM »
Dalmacija brate,how you stand with translation of the video clips and puting English subtitles in them?If you do that maybe I got interesting job for you.   :P  I would like to show video in 3 parts about Mujahedins in Bosnia 91-95 to our JTF friends.Its very interesting for all people no matter on faith.But I suck at translations ;/

Offline DALMACIJA

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2008, 01:34:01 PM »
Oke sent me a Private Message about this...

Offline DALMACIJA

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2008, 01:35:22 PM »
There was no conversion of Sorbs,because Catholic influence was only influence they were exposed.But they preserved Slavic origin,costums,customs and name Serbs even when they were exposed to Germanization.

I am not sure, before 1054 whole Europe was still Orthodox...

The forefathers of the Pope's were Orthodox Christians before the Church separation of 1054...

Offline knindza87

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2008, 02:01:40 PM »
There was no conversion of Sorbs,because Catholic influence was only influence they were exposed.But they preserved Slavic origin,costums,customs and name Serbs even when they were exposed to Germanization.

I am not sure, before 1054 whole Europe was still Orthodox...

The forefathers of the Pope's were Orthodox Christians before the Church separation of 1054...
Ya,but after Great Schism  they were influenced with Catholic faith(Western Roman Empire),they had no contact(physical,or spiritual w/e)with Byzantine Empire(Eastern Roman Empire),there was never a chance for them to be influenced by "Eastern" faith because of their simple  "Western" geographical position and their surroundings.But we are going away from theme of this topic.

Offline Pescarii

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2008, 02:02:32 PM »
From what I understand, the Goths and Slavs were the two major groups of invaders against the Roman Empire. The Goths eventually were incorporated into the Roman army until their numbers and increased and their loyalty declined. The Goths struck both in the Western half of the Empire and the Eastern Half. The conquered and settled and eventually formed kingdoms that the government in Constantinople claimed as vassals (in order to maintain some legal claim).

The Slavs were Pagan and began to strike in the 5th century when migrating into what is now Bulgraria. The Slavs were less organized than the Goths and were easy to enslave (hence the name Slav from the Latin Sclava). The geographical position of the Slavs made them only able to attack the Eastern part of the Empire mainly around modern Romania, Bulgraria, and Serbia.

A point I am not sure about is that Serbs were incorporated into the Roman army as Federales and Kosovo was given to them as Terra Salica. If anyone can correct me on this, I would appreciate it.

The Slavs spoke a language that ranged from what is now the Baltic to the Caspian Sea to areas in the Carpathians. The Carpathians were the site of an interesting mix of cultures including incoming Slavs, incoming Goths, defeated Roman settlers, Greeks leaving the Empire, and a few other less important groups. The gradual settlement of the Slavs in territories made communication between elements of the Slavic peoples less frequent and the language began to diverge. This was also influenced by Roman efforts to convert the Slavs around the 600's but increasingly by the 700's.

Sorbs/Serbs (no distinction existed yet) eventually rebelled against Roman demands in the middle of the conflict with the Muslims in their bid to expand. Sorbs (once separated) moved north into parts of Gothic lands (opposed to the Christian rule of the then Serb government) and Serbs stayed in what is now Kosovo and Southern Serbia.  This element is mainly a guess. I know Wends were separate and had moved there from what is now Belarus in the middle of the Gothic migrations.

To have invaded and made a land your own is not to be alien, it is life. Romans were not indigenous to Dacia, the Dacians were. Rome took the territory in a bloody war, settled its people, and now Romania traces part of its past to the Roman settlers. Not all or even most of the people there were biologically related to the Latins of Italy but Latin and Greek culture and identity remained distinct and survived to become dominant again.
Never underestimate human error. You may erroneously assume a different location but the magnitude is still beyond human comprehension.

Offline knindza87

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2008, 02:32:36 PM »
I can give you some links where you can read about Slavs and Serbs,there is too much informations to be putted in one topic.These links are questionable because they are from wikipedia where everyone can change everything,but I found it "mostly" true.Although pre 7th century history of South Slavs is "unknown".There are some theories but they remain theories.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_slavs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia

This is where you can found most basic info about  Slavs/Serbia/Serbs.

Offline knindza87

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2008, 03:07:08 PM »
From what I understand, the Goths and Slavs were the two major groups of invaders against the Roman Empire. The Goths eventually were incorporated into the Roman army until their numbers and increased and their loyalty declined. The Goths struck both in the Western half of the Empire and the Eastern Half. The conquered and settled and eventually formed kingdoms that the government in Constantinople claimed as vassals (in order to maintain some legal claim).

The Slavs were Pagan and began to strike in the 5th century when migrating into what is now Bulgraria. The Slavs were less organized than the Goths and were easy to enslave (hence the name Slav from the Latin Sclava). The geographical position of the Slavs made them only able to attack the Eastern part of the Empire mainly around modern Romania, Bulgraria, and Serbia.

A point I am not sure about is that Serbs were incorporated into the Roman army as Federales and Kosovo was given to them as Terra Salica. If anyone can correct me on this, I would appreciate it.

The Slavs spoke a language that ranged from what is now the Baltic to the Caspian Sea to areas in the Carpathians. The Carpathians were the site of an interesting mix of cultures including incoming Slavs, incoming Goths, defeated Roman settlers, Greeks leaving the Empire, and a few other less important groups. The gradual settlement of the Slavs in territories made communication between elements of the Slavic peoples less frequent and the language began to diverge. This was also influenced by Roman efforts to convert the Slavs around the 600's but increasingly by the 700's.

Sorbs/Serbs (no distinction existed yet) eventually rebelled against Roman demands in the middle of the conflict with the Muslims in their bid to expand. Sorbs (once separated) moved north into parts of Gothic lands (opposed to the Christian rule of the then Serb government) and Serbs stayed in what is now Kosovo and Southern Serbia.  This element is mainly a guess. I know Wends were separate and had moved there from what is now Belarus in the middle of the Gothic migrations.

To have invaded and made a land your own is not to be alien, it is life. Romans were not indigenous to Dacia, the Dacians were. Rome took the territory in a bloody war, settled its people, and now Romania traces part of its past to the Roman settlers. Not all or even most of the people there were biologically related to the Latins of Italy but Latin and Greek culture and identity remained distinct and survived to become dominant again.

    Ya that is kinda true,but you missed a part(in official theory) where Byzantine Emperor invite Slavs to his lands to defeat invading Avars which were on gates of Constantinople(todays Instanbul,back then capital of Eastern Roman Empire)so yeah Slavs were kinda recruited by Romans to defend Roman lands and they were rewarded with lands around Salonika and what was Ancient Macedonia.Serbs were Christianized by Greek missionaries.Serbs fought their independence from Byzantine Empire under leadership of Nemanjic dynasty,Byzantine remained Serbia's main ally.It's interesting that first Serbian king was crowned by Pope not by Patriarch from Constantinople.Later Serbian proclaimed saint Sava united all Serbs catholic and orthodox into one church Serbian Orthodox Church.Following the elevation of members of the dynasty to the status of Emperors in 1346, the title became Tsar of All Serbs, Albanians, Greeks and Bulgarians under Tsar Dusan when Empire reached territorial peak and it was one of the most powerful Empires in Europe at that time.To short the story,after his death comes Ottoman invasion,Battle of Kosovo and  Epoxy of Serbian suffering and fight for independence.

Offline DALMACIJA

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2008, 03:37:53 PM »
Later Serbian proclaimed saint Sava united all Serbs catholic and orthodox into one church Serbian Orthodox Church

No, Brother, this is false theory...

Officially here was and is no such thing as a Catholic Serb.

Sveti (Saint) Save had united all Orthodox Serbs into one independent Serbian Church!
By creating an independent Serbian church, which enjoyed the same level/ rank as the other Orthodox Churches. With this organization, Sveti Sava prevented once and for ever that non Orthodox so called Churches or organizations (just like the Vatican) can have their influence on the Serbian Orthodox Church.

Sveti Sava had two Brothers Vukan and Stevan.
Stevan Njemanjic was indeed crowned by the Pope in stead by a Byzantic representative, but in contradiction to Vukan Njemanjic - Stevan Njemanic did not had accepted the Roman Catholic religion. He was loyal to the Orthodox.

The followers of Vukan left Orthodoxy and accpeted Catholicism. They entered in war against Stevan's kingdom.

Sveti Sava had managed to create peace between his two brothers Vukan (who left Othodoxy) and Stevan, who was crowned by the Pope but did not accept Catholicism).

Sveti Save created only peace between Vukan and Stevan Njemanic.
Creating peace does not mean that he united the Orthodox Serbs with followers of an other religion, Catholicism!


That Stevan was crowned by the Pope in stead by a Byzantic representative was pure politic. He had probably currently not good relations with the East.

@@knindza87  my brother,

Can you tell to me which source claims that, that  Sveti Sava united Catholic "Serbs" and Orthodox Serbs into one Orthodox Church?
 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 04:12:38 PM by DALMACIJA »

Offline knindza87

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2008, 04:15:33 PM »
It is official claim that after(here we go again)Great Schism main group of Serbs stood by Orthodoxy but there was also Serbs who were between Western and Eastern influence and didn't alleged to none,until Rastko Nemanjic - Saint Sava united them under common Serbian Orthodox church.Yeah I kinda didn't expressed well there by saying that they "were" Catholic,but Roman Church did had some influence over them.That was until creation of Autocephaly of Serbian Church.It was the end of defining borders between Roman and Orthodox churches influence.I understand that Orthodoxy is deeply rooted into Serbian tradition and culture,just someone needed to bring all Serbs under one church and Saint Sava did that,thats his legacy and thats why Serbs celebrate him.

Offline Pescarii

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Re: Definition of "Serbophobia".
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2008, 04:16:14 PM »
Terra Salica were military lands granted to Gothic and Slavic tribes who would fight as Foederati alongside the Roman Army. It might be compared to hiring families of Mexicans to guard the US border with Mexico.

The use of Foederati was common among the Roman army in the Late Empire. Serbs were among those invited to ally with Rome via military land grants. What I am curious about is if Kosovo was granted as Terra Salica but you have answered that they were at least Foederati.

The Serb tribe existed before the split between the Western and Eastern Churches. There were those who held their identity to be Serb despite a conversion of allegiance to the Papacy in Rome. That was already a point of contention before the Schism. The loyalty of most of the Serbian nobles was to the system of Patriarchates as the theological decision-makers instead of the Papacy. The Papacy was geographically closer to the Serbs though.

The Serb territories were a battleground between the Patriarchate in Constantinople and the Papacy in Rome. Some missionaries loyal to the Papacy operated in the norther Serb Territories and coastal territories while the bulk of Serbs remained loyal to the Patriarchates. Despite that, there was a diplomatic game played by the Serb leadership to use the power of the Papacy to force Constantinople to make concessions on a number of points.

Eventually, continued Catholic actions after the Schism created a separate cultural identity as Croat based around loyalty to the Papacy as the theological authority from what had been Serbs. The religious struggles made Orthodoxy integral to the remaining Serb identity hence the concept of a Catholic Serb seems a bit unusual given that the Serb identity is not as biological or cultural as it is religious now.
Never underestimate human error. You may erroneously assume a different location but the magnitude is still beyond human comprehension.