Is Dating Allowed in Judaism?

[AryehYehudah]

I thought it was only for the goyim and the lefty Jews..  lol..  What about premarital sex?  These are religious questions sorry, maybe I should move to another thread..  I have become a bit more conservative minded over the years, pardon anyone I offend.

[muman613]

I thought it was only for the goyim and the lefty Jews..  lol..  What about premarital sex?  These are religious questions sorry, maybe I should move to another thread..  I have become a bit more conservative minded over the years, pardon anyone I offend.

Aryeh,

Obviously pre-marital sex is a big NO NO in Judaism. Men and women who are not married are not allowed to be alone with each other behind closed doors. This is called Yichud. Read about it @ http://www.jewishmag.com/101mag/yechud/yechud.htm .

From this article:

 Yichud is a decree to protect both men and women alike from negative actions as well as negative thoughts from others.

Let us understand some of the prohibitions of yichud:

According to the Torah, any consanguineous relations (i.e., those that a person is not allowed to marry, as listed in Leviticus 18:6-20) are forbidden to be secluded together, with the exception of:

      1) A mother with a son/grandson, etc.

      2) A father with a daughter/granddaughter, etc.

      3) A brother with his sister on a temporary basis (for example, if their parents left them alone in the house for a short time. However they shouldn't rent an apartment together.)

These three above mentioned couples are permitted to seclude themselves together since it is assumed that people shun such incestuous relationships.

      4) A husband and wife, even though the wife is in the middle of her menstrual period, and they may not have relations at the time. (This is permitted because it is assumed that the husband can restrain himself for the duration of the forbidden period.)

King David's decree extended the original prohibition to include any man and woman, whether Jewish or non-Jewish (with the above four exceptions remaining permitted). The Talmud states (Ketuboth 13b): "There is no assurance (or means of guarding) against immorality." No person is assumed to have such self-restraint that he may be exempt from these laws.

In all the rules of yichud, the age guidelines begin at the age of three for a female and a male above the age of nine. From this age on, they may not be secluded with a member of the opposite sex. (In a recently published biography of a famous American composer, it is related that he had his first sexual encounter at age nine!) There is sufficient evidence that even a child of age nine has achieved some level of sexual maturity and therefore cannot be "trusted".


Obviously the rules of Yichud would prevent a man and woman from being in a situation where anyone could even think that they had a physical relationship.

There is also the concept of Tzniut {or Modesty}. Read about it @ http://ohr.edu/ask/ask076.htm . From this article :


The Halachot of Tzniut - modesty - can be divided into two categories: relative and absolute.

The Halachot of Tzniut which are absolute are the minimal Torah standard. For example, the Talmud states that it is immodest for a man to listen to a woman sing. Similarly, a married woman should cover her hair, and all women should cover the thigh and upper arm. This means covering the elbow and knee - even when sitting.

The other aspect of Tzniut is the relative aspect, which changes based on societal standards. For example, in a place where the accepted style is to wear skirts down to the ankles - as was the style at the turn of the century - a mid-calf skirt would violate the laws of Tzniut.

In Judaism we have a process called Shidduchim where prospective mates can 'date' each other. Read about this @ http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/210,2219784/What-is-the-Jewish-approach-to-finding-a-mate.html . From this article:


The Shidduch

There are two, separate aspects to a shidduch (match): character traits and attraction. The attraction one person feels for another, or "chemistry", as it is often called, is as elusive as it is undefinable. It is inexplicable even to the couple themselves. It may spring from a person's specific personality, from upbringing, or from the essence of his soul. In any case, only the man and woman involved can decide if they feel that necessary mutual attraction.

The practical aspects of a shidduch [on the other hand] is the area in which one should seek guidance.

The guidance is needed for a very good reason. Third parties are not influenced by the subconscious desires that blind those who are personally involved. Outside observers can view a situation objectively, without being taken in by a prospective partner's beauty, sparkling conversation, or social popularity.


I hope that this points you in the proper direction in learning how to find a mate the Jewish way...

muman613

[AryehYehudah]

Nice Post Muman...   I am still learning more about my religion and have much I don't know.  As for me, from my take on the Torah, which is the main book I know, since I am not so knowledgable on most Jewish writings, that sex before marriage is a sin and dating is also a sin.  However, I know in the modern world, people say we need change, as thigns like arranged marriages are not practical today.  Personally, I think dating is bad, because people just look for people based on the outward appearance and there is no involvement with family.  I don't think its good for an unmarried woman to be with a man.  I, myself have been seduced by some women in the past and I stay clear of them.  It seems that most people think virginity is something to be broken before you get married. 

In American and European culture though it seems like if you don't date girls you are a real reject.   I just wonder if you can answer a question,  I see there is two sites, Jewish and Gentile Dating on JTF.  Are you people (JTF) advocating for men and women to date each other attended by family or is it like a one on one dating hookup site?  I think if JTF is encouraging men and women to date each other without parents or family present, it wouild be not good.   Also, should a woman cover her hair only after marriage or in any  situation where she may lure men by her looks, leading to loss of virginity?   I appreciate your response, thanks.

[q_q_]

in practice, only the most religious do arranged marrages, like, black hat, prayer 3 times a day.  And of those , some of them date anyway and don't do arranged marriages.

in arranged marriage situations, they still "date", but for a few weeks.

in the "modern orthodox" world, there is dating.

In the right of the modern orthodox world, it can work out i.e. the male and female don't have sex.  Obviously if they do have sex it's kept quiet, because they know it's technically wrong.  They often get married and nobody knows, and they lead a perfectly regular modern orthodox life. 

The basics, are Shabbat.  Kosher.  And morning prayer.

The more religious are really into prayer and regular torah study.


It's not so much about left and right like in politics - leftists are idiots. It's about how serious about doing things. Judaism is a difficult thing.


Arranged marriages haven't got the halachic problems of risk of sex before marriage. But they have problems of sometimes not being a good match.   Because they just trust some third party and don't know each other long enough to know each other.  The modern orthodox way may have less risk of heartbreak and embarassement like weddings suddenly being called off.

[muman613]

Shalom,

There has been a bit of a debate whether we should actually be running a dating section on JTF. Left to its own device it becomes a vehicle for sin. I dont believe our organization is really in the business of allowing sin to spread. I am a moderator in this section and I have been very lax in enforcing some of the ideals of JTF.

I would hope that we would not be responsible for Jews dating non-Jews because this would certainly be unholy in the eyes of Hashem. Since we attract numerous non-Jewish members, JTF has established a Gentile Dating section in the hopes that those who are not currently Jewish would be able to have a forum to meet and discuss issues.

In my original response I was not implying that Sidduchim is the only thing which is Kosher today. When I was single I was involved in a JCC dating meet-up. It was interesting but it didnt pan out. In some sense I think Sidduchim is a good way. I am currently married and the woman I met perchance and fell in love with. Our relationship was rocky for very many years and yet in the end we made things work out. We are together today after almost 20 years together. Watch the movie Fidler on the Roof and recall the song "Do you love me?". It contains bits of truth.

(Tevye)
"Golde, I have decided to give Perchik permission to become engaged to our daughter, Hodel."

(Golde)
"What??? He's poor! He has nothing, absolutely nothing!"

(Tevye)
"He's a good man, Golde.
I like him. And what's more important, Hodel likes him. Hodel loves him.
So what can we do?
It's a new world... A new world. Love. Golde..."

Do you love me?

(Golde)
Do I what?

(Tevye)
Do you love me?

(Golde)
Do I love you?
With our daughters getting married
And this trouble in the town
You're upset, you're worn out
Go inside, go lie down!
Maybe it's indigestion

(Tevye)
"Golde I'm asking you a question..."

Do you love me?

(Golde)
You're a fool

(Tevye)
"I know..."

But do you love me?

(Golde)
Do I love you?
For twenty-five years I've washed your clothes
Cooked your meals, cleaned your house
Given you children, milked the cow
After twenty-five years, why talk about love right now?

(Tevye)
Golde, The first time I met you
Was on our wedding day
I was scared

(Golde)
I was shy

(Tevye)
I was nervous

(Golde)
So was I

(Tevye)
But my father and my mother
Said we'd learn to love each other
And now I'm asking, Golde
Do you love me?

(Golde)
I'm your wife

(Tevye)
"I know..."
But do you love me?

(Golde)
Do I love him?
For twenty-five years I've lived with him
Fought him, starved with him
Twenty-five years my bed is his
If that's not love, what is?

(Tevye)
Then you love me?

(Golde)
I suppose I do

(Tevye)
And I suppose I love you too

(Both)
It doesn't change a thing
But even so
After twenty-five years
It's nice to know

muman613

[AsheDina]

in practice, only the most religious do arranged marrages, like, black hat, prayer 3 times a day.  And of those , some of them date anyway and don't do arranged marriages.

in arranged marriage situations, they still "date", but for a few weeks.

in the "modern orthodox" world, there is dating.

In the right of the modern orthodox world, it can work out i.e. the male and female don't have sex.  Obviously if they do have sex it's kept quiet, because they know it's technically wrong.  They often get married and nobody knows, and they lead a perfectly regular modern orthodox life. 

The basics, are Shabbat.  Kosher.  And morning prayer.

The more religious are really into prayer and regular torah study.


It's not so much about left and right like in politics - leftists are idiots. It's about how serious about doing things. Judaism is a difficult thing.


Arranged marriages haven't got the halachic problems of risk of sex before marriage. But they have problems of sometimes not being a good match.   Because they just trust some third party and don't know each other long enough to know each other.  The modern orthodox way may have less risk of heartbreak and embarassement like weddings suddenly being called off.

  I didnt really date. I am a 100% prude type. I like it that way. I am not as much of a prude as I was, but Jewish people need to restrain themselves- sex b4 marriage is a no-no. It can destroy a whole relationship.  There are folks that meet in later life- mid-age, this does not bother me, what they do- but kids, and young adults need to remain chaste.  We need to protect young adults from delving into adultery.

[q_q_]

  I didnt really date. I am a 100% prude type. I like it that way. I am not as much of a prude as I was, but Jewish people need to restrain themselves- sex b4 marriage is a no-no. It can destroy a whole relationship.  There are folks that meet in later life- mid-age, this does not bother me, what they do- but kids, and young adults need to remain chaste.  We need to protect young adults from delving into adultery.

that's an interesting theory, that sex before marriage increases the chances of adultery.

you could also argue that it doesn't(and a decent person wouldn't commit adultery, and if he would, he shouldn't be married in the first place).  And one could argue that it decreases it..

Of course, judaism is not in favour of sex before marriage, so for that reason, jews shouldn't do it!

[AryehYehudah]

Shalom,
I really love that scene in the movie.  Personally, I support Shidduchim and think it will considerably help end the high divorce rates, adultery, STDs, domestic abuse , etc that our societies are plagued with.  Assuming that all is done under the guidance of Rabbi or religious elders and family.  The irony of the Fiddler example, is part of the movie's emphasis was on how breaking Jewish teachings would lead them to happiness.  For example, all three girls married men who the father disapproved, initally; one whom the father disapproved perpeutally.  You can see in the case of Tzeitel, the father made a greedy and poor decision to marry her to an old man in exchange for financial security.  This relationship obviously would have not worked out in the long run.  However, I feel that the other marriages, the daughter with the communist and the daughter with the Russian goy, even though glorified in the movie to some extent, would ultimately lead to the failure and was the beginning of the end for Shidduch in our culture as well as many others.  In the movie you can see the daughters rebelling against their father, choosing men who suited their own desires rather than Hashems.  You can also feel the grief of Tevye who was not respected by his wife and later his children to a great degree.  For example, when the communist came to him and boldly told him he is taking his daughter and there is nothing he can do.  Of course, Tevye invited this on himself by befriending him. 

I love Fiddler on the Roof very much, but to me, it is a movie that shows the end of Jewish culture in a tiny village of Annatevka in exchange for a more sterilized, modern one.  The movie I suppose makes the communist look like a hero, but to me he was the greatest villain in the movie as his whole role was to make a mockery of Judaism.  Of course, he was "educated" at the Univeristy and had new ideas; and, of course, new ideas are always better.  We have the same college schmucks on the university campuises today preaching the End of Israel and to help contribute to the cause of Muslims.  The only bit of respect I give to Perchik (the communist), in comparison with today's liberals, is that he had the duty of fighting Tzar which makes the situation a bit different than the lazy and "uneducated" college blokes we have running around with their head cut off today.


As for your marriage Muman, may G-d bless you and your isha..  May you both live to see another 1000 years together (from Fiddler   ) before you move on to a greater place.  With a 50-60% divorce rate, that is quite an achievement.

[elle]

I used to date lots when I was in highschool.

Great times indeed.

[nopeaceforland]

Why date when you can invest some money instead!

 

Invest? I thought your mother was free!

[FreedomFighter08]

I'm not Orthodox Jewish so I do believe in dating and having SAFE premarital sex.

[Moshe92]

I'm not Orthodox Jewish so I do believe in dating and having SAFE premarital sex.

It's still a sin whether or not it's "safe."

[FreedomFighter08]

It's still a sin whether or not it's "safe."

But who says so? G-d? I believe even if the couple technically didn't have the ceremony, if they love each other and live together, they can still have sex. Everybody should be allowed to have sex because it's their choice, but I think this is more important to guys, then girls.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

FreedomFighter08 do you know anything about Halacha?

[FreedomFighter08]

FreedomFighter08 do you know anything about Halacha?

Probably not as much as you do. But I'm probably more Secular than you.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Do u believe that G-D has given us His Torah at Mount Sinai?

[FreedomFighter08]

Do u believe that G-D has given us His Torah at Mount Sinai?

I believe in the Ten Commandments as a path to guidance, but there are still some exceptions. It says "Do not kill" and I believe this, but what if I'm in the Army? What if I have to lie for the sake of my life? That's also an exception. I believe that the High Rabbis of the Jews from time to time have added in some rules (such as the Talmud and parts of the Torah) or have been interperated by these Rabbis to keep us all under control. I'm an Individualists, so I don't believe in higher authority keeping me under control, and I believe I can keep myself under control well enough.

But there are some things that I don't keep. I'm not going to go to a synagouge every Saturday because I believe that I don't need to because I am with G-D always. I only go to the synagouge during Yom Kippur.

I don't believe that I don't need to do some "rituals" to prove that I love G-D. It doesn't make sense.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

You mean "Do Not Murder"? cause there's a complete difference between murder and kill.

What if I have to lie for the sake of my life

like when?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

The "High Rabbis" added no rules, they just interpreted the complete amount of laws G-D has given us (and not only the Ten Commandments).

[FreedomFighter08]

The "High Rabbis" added no rules, they just interpreted the complete amount of laws G-D has given us (and not only the Ten Commandments).

The Talmud/Rabbinical law?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

בס"ד
- which is the Jewish law.

[Moshe92]

The "High Rabbis" added no rules, they just interpreted the complete amount of laws G-D has given us (and not only the Ten Commandments).

The Talmud/Rabbinical law?

The torah she-baal-peh (oral torah) was given to us at Mount Sinai and was passed down orally for ages before it was written down as the mishnah. The oral torah was not made up by Rabbis. It came from G-d.

[Moshe92]

You mean "Do Not Murder"? cause there's a complete difference between murder and kill.

What if I have to lie for the sake of my life

like when?

You are right. It says לא תרצח which means do not murder. There is a difference between murdering and killing. להרוג means to kill.