Author Topic: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.  (Read 1658 times)

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Offline q_q_

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this bbc article on judaism has to have been written by a muslim

I just extracted the bits that give it away.

want to bet that a muslim wrote this article on judaism?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2004/08/11/communities_jewish_feature.shtml

"London has always been home to many Jewish settlers"

"Men and teenage boys are proudly seen wearing a Yiddish Kippah, Yarmulke or skullcap.  This external display of absolute commitment and devotion is the very essence of Jewish faith."

"Judaism has experienced many changes since the time of Moses"


Offline muman613

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2008, 12:43:24 PM »
q_q_,

Shame on you... You are just posting your opinion here... No facts, no basis for your thesis... Shame, Shame Shame on you... Nothing in this post but conjecture...

 :laugh:

muman613

PS: I thought you weren't a betting man... Shame...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2008, 06:33:47 AM »
q_q_,

Shame on you... You are just posting your opinion here... No facts, no basis for your thesis... Shame, Shame Shame on you... Nothing in this post but conjecture...

 :laugh:

muman613

PS: I thought you weren't a betting man... Shame...

I'm not against speculation.

No doubt that when I criticised your speculation, there were significant differences.

There are essentially three, but excluding this one, two subjects where you have recently made a fool of yourself , the most recent one was Jacob and Esau, and the one before that was Chamish. Forget Chamish because that is not what you have in mind.

You didn't say what you were comparing it against, because, again, you are not for honest discussion. But, you have in mind Jacob and Esau, where I referred to philosophical speculation you had posted.  (I have a good memory, though I don't really intend to make a point of memorising your rubbish. And don't expect me to. If you want to make your case, you should have mentioned the jacob and esau thing)

Now, the fact that something is speculation doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong. It just means it is that.  And therefore, that it wasn't on such firm ground.  The plain text of the tenach is firmer ground.  The discussion involved the plain text, and the speculation.  And you were ignoring the plain text

The plain text of the tenach, shows Esau to be a very evil person, perhaps even while in the womb.   

So what i've been telling you is, to not mix everything up, to understand where you read things from. The source.  Not just the website source like "torahanytime" or whatever, but the textual source, is it midrash, tenach , e.t.c.  And if it is midrash, are there alternate readings. And don't forget the tenach!! Don't sit there focussing on commentaries when you haven't even understood the plain text. And don't ever ignore the plain text. Especially not *in favour* of philosophical speculation over the plain text. And if you do, then at least say so, don't claim that the website you read is the jewish view and then just ignore the plain text of the tenach.

Now the only thing that you have impressed me with here is that finally you haven't run away from a debate. But you are still not honest in your discussion.

You never expected me to write a reply like this naming examples, and really , you don't deserve it either.

Seriously, nobody would have known that that you had in mind the jacob and esau thread. You are totally dishonest in your tactics. You don't write expecting honest discussion.

It's amazing that you haven't yet learnt that your weak methods can't fool me. I see right through them.

Offline muman613

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2008, 08:15:14 AM »
q_q_,

Shame on you... You are just posting your opinion here... No facts, no basis for your thesis... Shame, Shame Shame on you... Nothing in this post but conjecture...

 :laugh:

muman613

PS: I thought you weren't a betting man... Shame...

I'm not against speculation.

No doubt that when I criticised your speculation, there were significant differences.

There are essentially three, but excluding this one, two subjects where you have recently made a fool of yourself , the most recent one was Jacob and Esau, and the one before that was Chamish. Forget Chamish because that is not what you have in mind.

You didn't say what you were comparing it against, because, again, you are not for honest discussion. But, you have in mind Jacob and Esau, where I referred to philosophical speculation you had posted.  (I have a good memory, though I don't really intend to make a point of memorising your rubbish. And don't expect me to. If you want to make your case, you should have mentioned the jacob and esau thing)

Now, the fact that something is speculation doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong. It just means it is that.  And therefore, that it wasn't on such firm ground.  The plain text of the tenach is firmer ground.  The discussion involved the plain text, and the speculation.  And you were ignoring the plain text

The plain text of the tenach, shows Esau to be a very evil person, perhaps even while in the womb.   

So what i've been telling you is, to not mix everything up, to understand where you read things from. The source.  Not just the website source like "torahanytime" or whatever, but the textual source, is it midrash, tenach , e.t.c.  And if it is midrash, are there alternate readings. And don't forget the tenach!! Don't sit there focussing on commentaries when you haven't even understood the plain text. And don't ever ignore the plain text. Especially not *in favour* of philosophical speculation over the plain text. And if you do, then at least say so, don't claim that the website you read is the jewish view and then just ignore the plain text of the tenach.

Now the only thing that you have impressed me with here is that finally you haven't run away from a debate. But you are still not honest in your discussion.

You never expected me to write a reply like this naming examples, and really , you don't deserve it either.

Seriously, nobody would have known that that you had in mind the jacob and esau thread. You are totally dishonest in your tactics. You don't write expecting honest discussion.

It's amazing that you haven't yet learnt that your weak methods can't fool me. I see right through them.

q_q_,

I have quoted sources and backed up every assertion I made concerning the Esau issue. Your stubbornness is only your weakness. You only impress yourself with your attempts at intellect.

I believe my understanding of the dynamics of the story of Esau and Yaakov to be genuine and authentic. There are NUMEROUS sources on the web and in midrash which support my thesis. There is no doubt that Esau appeared to most to be a son who was concerned with doing good for his father. As I stated in my quotes there is always debate about this but basically this is an accepted fact. You never answered my questions concerning why Isaac would believe in his heart that Esau deserved the blessing? Yes he was blind but he felt a closeness to Esau and wanted to help him improve. And most certainly I have understood the plain text. And I know all the other midrash about how Esau would kick and wiggle when Rivka was passing a place of idol worship while Yaakov would struggle to get out as she passed the Beit Midrash. I spend a good amount of time studying and reading Tanach and I hear the Torah of many teachers. I also am willing to learn from almost anyone.

What is intriguing is why you dragged this into this posting where you make statements which are not born from the facts which you present. Only one with a wild imagination could read what you posted and believe that it MUST BE WRITTEN BY A MUSLIM. That, my friend, is unsubstantiated conjecture. But because you are one willing to believe the rants of a disturbed author you most probably do this quite frequently.

I feel pretty good about what I have said and have no problem repeating it. I also have asked my Rabbi for his insight into this issue and hope to be able to post my findings on my blog soon.

muman613

PS: I apologize about the fact that in my original post I suggested that Esau was actually righteous. My understanding was that he wanted to appear righteous to his father because he really did want to receive the blessing which Yaakov was to receive. I think this may be what upset you about what I wrote. I attempted to clarify this.
 
 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 09:05:54 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline jaime

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 08:17:12 AM »
"You are totally dishonest in your tactics. You don't write expecting honest discussion.

It's amazing that you haven't yet learnt that your weak methods can't fool me. I see right through them."



q_q, why are you being so mean to Muman?  So you think, from your experience, that article is written by a Muslim because it is so fundamental in its statements.  References to skullcaps, etc.  you are probably right, but why do you have to say such mean things to Muman    :doctor:

Offline muman613

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 08:19:18 AM »
"You are totally dishonest in your tactics. You don't write expecting honest discussion.

It's amazing that you haven't yet learnt that your weak methods can't fool me. I see right through them."



q_q, why are you being so mean to Muman?  So you think, from your experience, that article is written by a Muslim because it is so fundamental in its statements.  References to skullcaps, etc.  you are probably right, but why do you have to say such mean things to Muman    :doctor:

jaime,

Its OK, we are both grown men here... I think he likes this kind of banter... I am just engaging him the way he wants to be engaged in this battle of words. I am not offended at all...

muman613

PS: This stems from a disagreement we have about a certain author.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2008, 09:15:17 AM »
"You are totally dishonest in your tactics. You don't write expecting honest discussion.

It's amazing that you haven't yet learnt that your weak methods can't fool me. I see right through them."

q_q, why are you being so mean to Muman?  So you think, from your experience, that article is written by a Muslim because it is so fundamental in its statements.  References to skullcaps, etc.  you are probably right, but why do you have to say such mean things to Muman

It's not "being mean", it's constructive criticism. He's a man, he can take it.

I don't think it changes him , but at least it exposes the flaws in his arguments so that others don't fall for it or it follow the same route.  His errors are abstract/conceptual. It's not actually a personal thing or a reaction to anything else. He doesn't really understand that, and probably never will. And many others may not either, and i'm fine with that. But there's the explanation anyway. Incase it isn't already obvious enough.

Offline q_q_

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2008, 10:12:28 AM »
<snip>
You never answered my questions concerning why Isaac would believe in his heart that Esau deserved the blessing? Yes he was blind but he felt a closeness to Esau and wanted to help him improve. And most certainly I have understood the plain text.

yep, he was blind, and this is in the plain text. you wrote something correct there

he wanted to help esau improve? where is that in the plain text?

a small side point before dealing with your question.
Originally there may have been only one blessing but remember that ultimately both sons received a blessing. Esau ended up with the lesser blessing, but it may be that Isaac would have felt jacob would have deserved that.

Onto your question.

There is a very obvious reason why he wanted to give the great blessing to esau.

a)There are hints that esau being the first born may have been part of the reason or a reason. But putting that aside.

The obvious reason is this.
b)Esau brought him meat. Esau was a man's man, he hunted and brought Isaac meat that he loved. You're a man, so, man to man, you know how satisfying it is to eat good meat.  Esau's masculine character resonated with Isaac.  Now, again, man to man.  You don't look like a pansy, and from some of the real life stories you have told, you don't act like one.  If you have strong masculine character traits, you will want to be friendly with people with similar traits. They shared that in common.  (I'm not saying that Jacob was effeminate, but he didn't have as much manly aggression as Esau. Infact, coming to think of it, an interesting observation is that Jacob favoured Joseph, and a description or two of Joseph show him as not a particularly aggressive manly man character) .  Yaakov was strong , or grew strong. He moved that stone(though later in life), but Esau's aggressively male character traits were greater and used more. Esau looked after Isaac by bringing him food, it showed alot of respect to him as his father.  So Isaac really liked him alot.. he had produced this really strong son, a son that is caring and respectful enough to bring him meat.


Regarding point a, that Esau was the firstborn.

the text may be suggesting that Esau was going to get the better blessing because he was the firstborn. Bear in mind that we already know that Esau was the firstborn. It said that when Jacob and Esau was born.

Gen 27:1
And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see, he called Esau his elder son, and said unto him: 'My son'; and he said unto him: 'Here am I.'

Gen 27:19
And Jacob said unto his father: 'I am Esau thy first-born


You can ignore point 'a', because you don't understand the place of speculation, even though everything you write is wild speculation written as beliefs, and on serious subjects.

<snip>

Now, regarding you accusing me saying that I "believe that it MUST BE WRITTEN BY A MUSLIM"

That is a totally brainless reading of my post.

Firstly, the content of the post is hilarious..
So clearly humour is a purpose of my post. (the extracts of the BBC article, and my obervation)

Secondly  it's not a serious subject, my speculation is clearly stated as speculation. It's not like you writing on a serious subject ignoring the plain text in favour of something that contradicts it. You have since "apologised" for that.  But that was why your speculation was so stupid.

Thirdly, I said "want to bet that a muslim wrote this article on judaism?"
That should suggest that it's not a firm belief.

anyhow, I would say that anybody that knows muslims well, would see that it is either written by a muslim, or by somebody that has been very very islamized.  I didn't need to add the latter because it is not a serious thing. Just a funny thing. You have to use your brain to put things in the correct category. It's not a fact like "space contains planets". It's not a lie like "space is run by computers".  It's an observation from me. You may agree, you may not. You of course, completely miscategorise the statement. You don't get anything.


sopme useful sources, that helped to find the exact chapter and verse of a few things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob
http://www.answers.com/topic/isaac

Now answer an obvious question..

since your original reply criticised my "speculation" trying to use my standards. Clearly you had in mind a particular case where I had criticised your "speculation", and your mind was drawing analogy. Why didn't you bring up the example? Why did I have to read your mind and see that you had in mind a thread about jacob and esau?
It put it to you that it's because you weren't interested in an honest discussion about it.
But what do you say the reason is?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 10:20:49 AM by q_q_ »

Offline Shlomo

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2008, 10:27:39 AM »
Debate is good as long as it's handled in dignified and respectful manner. Let's be careful not to be insulting and turn this thread into another flame war.
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

Offline muman613

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2008, 01:13:51 PM »
q_q_,

Wonderful work.... You just basically took what I quoted in my examples and rehashed it and sent it back to me. Of course you seem to think you have revealed something new to the conversation. I am not going to spend a great deal of time proving this to you, but if you want to continue arguing in this manner we can go back and examine the posts which I made.

It seems you are on a mission to try to prove something about my knowledge of Torah. I am on a mission for truth, regardless of what your aim is. I have tried repeatedly to appeal to the good which should exist in the neshamah of each and every Jew, to seek truth and pursue it. But you want to prove to the world that you know it all. The truth is that you can learn a lot more if you just put down your defense mechanism. This is why I assume you must either be very young, or very old. A mature man will be able to contribute to a discussion without drawing all the attention to himself or without insulting another person.

By the way, I read the article to which you linked and it doesnt seem to me to be written by a muslim. To me it seems to be written by someone who doesn't really know much about Judaism. A muslim would never treat the subject so gingerly as the writer of that article. Notice that there is no assertion that Jews don't have a right to Israel? I did... I guess its your Extra Sensory Perception working again (or not)...
Quote

The early Jewish immigrants to London faced many more difficulties. They encountered discrimination which included laws preventing them from obtaining a degree or voting.
Why would a muslim discuss antisemitism from London?

It wasn’t until the 1656, that a Jewish man or woman was recognised in the eyes of the law and could live as a normal citizen.

There are many festivals that are celebrated, one of the most important is Pesach or Passover. It marks the time that Jewish people were led by Moses out of slavery, guided by God.
Why explain about the G-ds saving the Jewish people from the hand of Egypt?

Moses then went to Mount Sinai where God gave him the Ten Commandments and a Covenant was made.
Why would a muslim explain that a covenent was made with the Jewish people at Sinai?

God told Moses that they would always be looked after and the people of Israel promised only to have one God.
Why would a muslim even admit that Israel would be special to Hashem?


Whenever I read something which is obviously written by muslims it usually refutes the claim of Israel on the land and the covenent made with G-d. More recently the Muslims have been claiming that the Jews have no right to the land of Israel. It would seem the author of this article doesn't quite belong to that group.

muman613

PS: Your spider senses are failing you Peter... I simply have decided to take everything you write with a grain of salt. You have jumped up and down my throat for simply quoting an article and not attributing it according to your liking. But then I noticed several other posters doing the same thing and yet you do not insult or disparage them. This must be something personal which you are taking out on me. I dont really mind because I have delt with people with this particular personality 'trait'.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 01:21:34 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2008, 07:45:45 PM »
muman, putting aside your interesting attempt to insult me by comparing me to spiderman, you ignored the whole esau issue.

And regarding the statement that it was written by a muslim "?", you still don't understand what I explained to you. I won't repeat it.

And your comments about muslims are all wrong.  You ask many times "why would a muslim say x".   These are all things muslims believe very much.  I can answer each with well known quotes from the Quran, or from many imams. Infact even the nuances of the sentences that you quoted (thinking they were not islammic) make it look even more islammic, albeit an islammic "peace talk" "/" apologetic of sorts.

I have read the Quran cover to cover, been through it many times, and know it very well.  I've had lots and lots of discussions with muslims(in the past when they were eager and in my environment) and I have a tremendous memory. I know more about islam than alot of muslims, sometimes muslims have asked me questions, sometimes they've tried to convert me and i've not only countered them, but corrected them about islam. They respected that.  I have much more knowledge and experience in this than you and perhaps everybody here. (and before you start making more barmy assumptions. I have never been a muslim. I am a jew, raised orthodox and still orthodox)

I don't mind educating those that don't know. But your weaknesses are elsewhere, and nothing can be done about it.

And regarding other posters that you think did the same thing you did.
a)they didn't, or it was nowhere near as extreme a case as when you did.
b)the reasons why I didn't reply to them about it are specific to the situation.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 08:05:39 PM by q_q_ »

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2008, 08:38:18 PM »
"I have read the Quran cover to cover, been through it many times, and know it very well. "

 Why? You know you shouldn't be reading all forms of Kefira.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2008, 08:53:26 PM »
"I have read the Quran cover to cover, been through it many times, and know it very well. "

 Why? You know you shouldn't be reading all forms of Kefira.

I'm sure that your rabbi read the new testament before arguing with that christian.

BTW, I did explain some of the context e.g. that I did it LONG ago, and it was so I could answer muslims very well, at a time when they were all around me(that was long ago).  The Quran is very small, and not difficult to read, and quite easy to remember. 

It's not like reading the bible cover to cover which is a really big job!  If the quran was longer or more difficult, I wouldn't have spent the time. 

I certainly don't advocate reading about other peoples' religions. It's not a generally positive thing.

BTW, I was religious when I was reading that... but part of my point about me reading it long ago, is that you were probably not even barmitzva. Infact, long after that time you started partying.. and so on.  Just reminding you ;-)
And I won't even mention muman in the context of discovering judaism rather late!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:28:58 PM by q_q_ »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2008, 08:54:33 PM »
"I have read the Quran cover to cover, been through it many times, and know it very well. "

 Why? You know you shouldn't be reading all forms of Kefira.

Not everyone starts off religious tzvi.

Also, Rambam had a knowledge of islam in order to say what nonsense it was.

Offline muman613

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2008, 10:19:21 PM »
"I have read the Quran cover to cover, been through it many times, and know it very well. "

 Why? You know you shouldn't be reading all forms of Kefira.

I'm sure that your rabbi read the new testament before arguing with that christian.

BTW, I did explain some of the context e.g. that I did it LONG ago, and it was so I could answer muslims very well, at a time when they were all around me(that was long ago).  The Quran is very small, and not difficult to read, and quite easy to remember. 

It's not like reading the bible cover to cover which is a really big job!  If the quran was longer or more difficult, I wouldn't have spent the time. 

I certainly don't advocate reading about other peoples' religions. It's not a generally positive thing.

BTW, I was religious when I was reading that... but part of my point about me reading it long ago, is that you were probably not even barmitzva. Infact, long after that time you started partying.. and so on.  Just reminding you ;-)
And I won't even mention muman in the context of discovering judaism rather late!

q_q_,

You should know that it doesnt matter what time you do your teshuva. Also you should be aware that some of our greatest sages came to their religion later in life. Our great sage Rabbi Akiva was unlearned in Torah till the age of 40...

Here is a piece written about Rabbi Akiva:

http://www.ou.org/chagim/elul/akiva.htm
Rabbi Akiva, Master of Teshuvah

Rabbi Akiva, as a young man, did not know a word of Torah. He worked as a shepherd for "Ben Kalba Savua," one of the richest men in Yerushalayim. One day, Rachel, the daughter of Ben Kalba Savua, looked at Akiva and was extremely impressed by his modesty and his gentleness with her father's flocks. She also noticed in him a tremendous potential for accomplishment in Torah, although his potential was at this point totally unrealized.

Rachel approached the Shepherd Akiva and suggested that they get married. When her father found out about this, he was very upset, because he had envisioned a Torah scholar as a husband for his daughter, rather than an ignorant shepherd. In his anger, he vowed to cut the young couple off financially, leaving them penniless.

One of Rachel's conditions for marrying Akiva was that he go to a Yeshiva to learn Torah. Even though he sincerely accepted the condition and married Rachel, he initially found it extremely difficult to fulfill it. In fact, while an ignorant shepherd, he had harbored a secret hatred towards Torah scholars

Once, while shepherding his flocks, he gazed into a pool, where he saw a hollowed-out rock resting under a waterfall. He wondered how the rock, one of Nature's hardest substances, had been hollowed out. When he was told that the water had, over a long period of time, made the drastic change in the rock, he reasoned as follows:

"If a rock, though extremely hard, can be hollowed out by water, how much more so should it be possible for Torah, which is compared to water, to change my heart, which is soft. I will begin to study it, and try to become a Torah scholar."

Akiva and his son, Yehoshua, went to the same teacher at first. Together they studied the Aleph-Bet, the Hebrew Alphabet. They went on at their own pace, Yehoshua at the pace of a bright child, Akiva analyzing the meaning of each new fact and idea that he learned, deeply and thoroughly. Rachel suggested that Akiva go to a Yeshiva and devote himself full-time, for twelve years, to the study of Torah. Having the permission and encouragement of his wife, Akiva went to study in the Yeshiva of the great Rabbi Eliezer ben Hirkonus.

Years passed. Akiva studied more and more material, in greater and greater depth, but remained silent in the class. When he proposed his first explanation of a difficult point at the Yeshiva, Rabbi Yehoshua ben Chananya, a colleague of Rabbi Eliezer, immediately recognized the depth and profundity of Akiva's analysis.

As more years passed, Akiva received Semichah, Rabbinic Ordination, and became known as Rabbi Akiva. He opened his own Yeshiva, which began to attract many students. At the end of a dozen years, he returned to Jerusalem, to greet his wife, accompanied by twelve thousand students. As she heard their approach, Rachel came out and, out of great love for Rabbi Akiva, and honor for the Torah, she prostrated herself at his feet. When his students moved to push her away, he restrained them, saying, "All the Torah knowledge that I have, and all the Torah knowledge that you have, are the direct results of this woman's love of the Torah!"

Ben Kalba Savua, remorseful over how he had mistreated his daughter, went to Rabbi Akiva, whom he did not yet recognize, but of whom he knew only that he was a great Torah scholar, seeking an "opening" for his vow. (Briefly, an "opening" of a vow means that if the circumstances of the vow were such that if the maker of the vow had known about some fact, he would not have made the vow, that is its "opening.")

When his father-in-law came before him, Rabbi Akiva asked him whether he would have cut off his daughter if he had known that her husband would become a Torah scholar, Ben Kalba Savua answered, "Even for one chapter, one Mishnah, one verse, I would not have done it." Then Rabbi Akiva revealed his identity.

In his joy, Ben Kalba Savua turned over half of his fortune to his daughter and son-in-law. Rabbi Akiva was now able to fulfill a promise he had made to his wife, to give her a model of Jerusalem made of gold to wear in her hair.

Later, Rabbi Akiva heard Rachel say to her neighbors that she was so happy and proud of her husband's accomplishments that she would be happy to let him go away for another dozen years, to completely realize his potential. She discussed the matter with Rabbi Akiva, he determined that she would be happy with the arrangement, and he agreed to do as his wife wished. He did that, reached his full measure of greatness, went on to become one of the eternal heroes of the Jewish People, great in Torah, great in love of Hashem, great in "Emunah," "Belief," in the Almighty, and great in appreciation of and devotion to his wife. (Masechet K'tuvot: 62b-63a)

Sometimes, a person may do Teshuvah for the "wrong" reasons. But there is a principle in the Jewish Tradition, that if a person does a good deed, such as learning Torah, even for the "wrong" reason, he or she will eventually come to do it for the right reason.


Also you should know the famous statement in Berachot 34b which reads "In the place where Baalei Teshuva stand utter Tzadikkim cannot stand". Here is more on this concept:



http://www.meaningfullife.com/torah/holidays/1b/Teshuvah.php#_edn15
The tzaddik is one who has made the divine will the very substance of his existence. Everything that becomes part of his life—the food he eats, the clothes he wears, the ideas and experiences he garners from his surroundings—are elevated, their “sparks” divested of their mundanity and raised to their divine function. And he confines himself to the permissible elements of creation, never digressing from the boundaries that Torah sets for our involvement with and development of G-d’s world.

The baal teshuvah, on the other hand, is one who has digressed; one who has ventured beyond the realm of the permissible and has absorbed the irredeemable elements of creation into his life. His digression was a wholly negative thing;[16] but having occurred, it holds a unique potential: the potential for teshuvah, “return.”

Teshuvah is fueled by the utter dejection experienced by one who wakes to the realization that he has destroyed all that is beautiful and sacred in his life; by the pain of one who has cut himself off from his source of life and well-being; by the alienation felt by one who finds himself without cause or reason to live. Teshuvah is man’s amazing ability to translate these feelings of worthlessness, alienation and pain into the drive for rediscovery and renewal.

The baal teshuvah is a person lost in the desert whose thirst, amplified a thousandfold by the barrenness and aridity of his surroundings, drives him to seek water with an intensity that could never have been called forth by the most proficient welldigger; a person whose very abandonment of G-d drives him to seek Him with a passion the most saintly tzaddik cannot know. A soul who, having stretched the cord that binds it to its source to excruciating tautness, rebounds with a force that exceeds anything experienced by those who never leave the divine orbit.

In this way, the baal teshuvah accomplishes what the most perfect tzaddik cannot: he liberates those sparks of divinity imprisoned in the realm of the forbidden. In his soul, the very negativity of these elements, their very contrariness to the divine will, becomes a positive force, an intensifier of his bond with G-d and his drive to do good.[17]



So before you knock someone who has done an honest teshuva you should consider what you are saying...

muman613

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2008, 10:28:51 PM »
Muman, back to copy/paste I see, and confirms what I already said in an earler thread, that you just look for excuses to paste bits of torah randomly. No real reasoning.

it's a shame that you feel I knocked your teshuva!

I have criticised you on a number of things, but not that.

As I already said, you fail to understand the category of statements that are made.

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2008, 11:42:46 PM »
Muman, back to copy/paste I see, and confirms what I already said in an earler thread, that you just look for excuses to paste bits of torah randomly. No real reasoning.

it's a shame that you feel I knocked your teshuva!

I have criticised you on a number of things, but not that.

As I already said, you fail to understand the category of statements that are made.

q_q_,

You make statements without any factual basis that is the problem. This whole threat was simply a speculation you made without any statements which back it up... Well, that makes it just your opinion.

I stand by my assertion that you have not proven that this article was written by a muslim and have failed to convince me that you had any intention of proving it. It seems you enjoy posting stuff like this and yet you always see fit to speak derogatorily towards people like me who always seek to post supporting material to show my points. And yes, cut & pasting information from other links is a valid way to back up my points.

Quote
And I won't even mention muman in the context of discovering judaism rather late!

What is it you are implying in this statement? You seem to think I have over-reacted to this statement.

muman613

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2008, 11:48:29 PM »
To quote myself.. which funnily enough you quoted anyway.

"As I already said, you fail to understand the category of statements that are made." 

You fail even to understand what it is that you fail to understand.

If you can't explain what I mean, then you can't even agree or disagree with me.

I could add a note to my posts saying "not for muman". Or "for a certain class of intellect".  But you cannot understand it, that's for sure.

note- and you don't mind taking the odd statement out of context, but I have yet to see if you make a habit of it.  I doubt it, but for other reasons!


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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2008, 12:16:32 AM »
To quote myself.. which funnily enough you quoted anyway.

"As I already said, you fail to understand the category of statements that are made." 

You fail even to understand what it is that you fail to understand.

If you can't explain what I mean, then you can't even agree or disagree with me.

I could add a note to my posts saying "not for muman". Or "for a certain class of intellect".  But you cannot understand it, that's for sure.

note- and you don't mind taking the odd statement out of context, but I have yet to see if you make a habit of it.  I doubt it, but for other reasons!



q_q_,

Only you are smart enough to understand what you are saying. Anyone looking at this conversation would say you basically haven't said anything. Either you have trouble understanding simple english, like "I stand by my assertion that you have not proven that this article was written by a muslim and have failed to convince me that you had any intention of proving it." or "You make statements without any factual basis that is the problem.", or you just want to be argumentative. I am inclined to believe the later because nobody could be so intellectually challenged.

There must be something good which is coming out of this banter. I know in a way you are being humorous and this is so unbelievably hilarious. Almost 16 years ago I was involved with flame wars on the USENET networks with people like you.  You could learn a little more than you think you know. And the knowledge you learned in the Koran isn't helping your presentation.

Do you think you can explain the "category of statements" which were made? In your original post you were perplexed because they mentioned kippahs or skullcaps. I dont find this that shocking because many people identify the Jews with head-coverings. You mentioned that the article says: "Judaism has experienced many changes since the time of Moses". This is not unusual to me either.

The only statement of the ones you mentioned which I contest is : "This external display of absolute commitment and devotion is the very essence of Jewish faith.". This statement is obviously not true as anyone who studies Torah realizes that outward appearance of devotion is not always indicative of righteous intention. This idea comes from a perversion of understanding the nature of Torah wisdom. I agree that this statement sounds like it describes Islam to me. I think Muslims are too concerned with the external display of commitment and devotion.

But does this mean that it is written by a Muslim? I dont know if there is enough evidence to support this idea. Maybe it is, maybe it is not...

muman613
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2008, 12:47:04 AM »
I could just quote myself again because I already answered you.

And AGAIN, it just shows that you don't understand what I wrote and you don't even understand what it is that you don't understand.

I won't repaste what I wrote into this post because you don't even deserve that.

You are going to have to do something yourself.

You are going to have to read my posts and locate the answer. I'll even help you do it.

Go and look at page 1 of the thread, Reply #7, after the text "<snip>", it deals with your accusation directly.

You won't understand it, but that is the answer to you anyway. 

And if you do get as far as finding it and you think you understood it, then explain why you missed it the first time..

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2008, 01:10:30 AM »
I could just quote myself again because I already answered you.

And AGAIN, it just shows that you don't understand what I wrote and you don't even understand what it is that you don't understand.

I won't repaste what I wrote into this post because you don't even deserve that.

You are going to have to do something yourself.

You are going to have to read my posts and locate the answer. I'll even help you do it.

Go and look at page 1 of the thread, Reply #7, after the text "<snip>", it deals with your accusation directly.

You won't understand it, but that is the answer to you anyway. 

And if you do get as far as finding it and you think you understood it, then explain why you missed it the first time..

Ah, I was right, you are just writing this for the humor aspect. I must have missed that point.

I guess I've been fooled by you again.... Drats!

muman613

PS: No soup for you!

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

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Re: BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2008, 01:39:08 AM »
Ah, I was right, you are just writing this for the humor aspect. I must have missed that point.

I guess I've been fooled by you again.... Drats!

muman613

Not exactly right, and by a normal standard, you are far from right, but that is probably as good an understanding as you could ever have.  In future it's better if you don't read my posts, I might include a warning in future, so that you remember.