This is tough because we have so many good people here but I have to say something. The fighting is getting out of hand and we need unity in order to achieve our goals.
muman,
Handle these types of things in private. I do not want petty bickering on the forum. You are supposed to be an example. I'm not sure why you continue to egg these things on. Please help me.
q_q_,
I don't know how else to say this but you come off sounding elitist and I'm afraid you are going to turn members off or give the impression that JTF has something against our wonderful gentile members. This might be the case on the splinter forums but it's not the case here. We love righteous people no matter who they are. Rabbi Kahane taught us to be kind to non-Jewish people and befriended many including a Catholic priest who was a dear friend. I'm sure you've heard some of this from reading his books or listening to his programs.
Even if they wanted to fast on Yom Kippur, who cares? It's not like they are going to do some type of harm or even be able to perform Yom Kippur the exact way we are commanded to. Gentiles are allowed to fast on which ever day they wish. This is not a restriction for them in the Noahide laws and it's silly to go on about it - especially since it had nothing to do with Yom Kippur. It comes off just sounding insulting and arrogant - even though I understand that's not your intention. They don't understand why you are saying this or about people who are non-Jewish attempting to do Shabbat so it comes off very smug and elitist and I know that's not what you intended or want.
We all really need to be careful and understanding. I also don't want attacks or bashing on their religious beliefs. This isn't the place and they love Israel and only wish to help. It's cruel to accept help from our wonderful Christian members and then turn around and tell them "you don't care if they worship a tree". Understandably, as Jews, we reject some of their beliefs but we don't have to be harsh and cruel about it.
They speak like this over on the splinter forum but I will not allow our Christian members to be attacked. We need UNITY in order to become success and become a mass movement. I love and care about them and they are trying to join us in order to help save this planet. Let's focus on the muslim nazis (like obama) and show a little more respect and kindness towards those who believe differently than you. We are supposed to be a light to the nations... not just the Jews. We have a responsibility to act with kindness and understanding. We have a responsibility to emulate the Creator.
momofsixbabes,
We have a difference here in religious belief and that's going to happen from time to time. We do the things that G-d commands us (the Laws in the Torah) because G-d commands us to and commands us for every generation. I just wanted to explain. We believe that G-d is kind and wouldn't give us commandments that we could not achieve. We strive to do these things out of love and awe of our magnificent and majestic Creator because we understand that G-d is one and that He's perfect. I hope that helps.
-Shlomo
What I will do is stop responding directly to muman.. To stop quoting him and responding to him. (I only respond usually to discuss/argue a point, and we cannot communicate)
And I think it would be a good idea if he doesn't quote me, so as to respond to me.
Most insult has been in direct communication between myself and muman.
Though you didn't really criticise my communication there..
You think I said something or gave the impression of being against gentiles.
note- i'm not offended by you thinking that.
Shlomo, there isn't a single thing I have said that is against christians or christianity. I have even spoken in defence of Ann Coulter over her famous comments.
There is not a single example in this thread or any other of be being against gentiles, on the contrary. In every case.. I have been very supportive of them.
You bring up the tree example.
You completely misunderstood it.
Infact, I don't see anybody else quoting it and calling me out on it. If they found it offensive then they should have.
And funnily enough, the tree example is precisely the same PRO gentile point that I am making with it. The same point that defends Ann Coulter.
I don't care what somebody believes or who they worship. Initially I had in mind saying that I don't mind if she worships satan. In no way would that have suggested that jesus was satan. My point is that she can worship or believe whatever she wants.
And this is entirely in line with JTF who support RIGHTEOUS gentiles. Righteous , whether religious or not, and regardless of religion. They can be Hindu or Christian or Atheist or worship a speaker.
Regarding fasting on yom kippur.
I did say that by judaism's standards, they shouldn't be fasting on yom kippur for the sake of it being yom kippur.. (Meaning she shouldn't expect jews to accept that aspect of her behaviour as true and right, and jews should know that judaism doesn't want that of gentiles).
There are many things I have heard that support gentiles not following our torah.
The Torah is described as our inheritance and our betrothed, and there is a commentary I read that said that this means that were we to teach it to gentiles, we would be making them like thieves and adulterers.
(there is disagreement over what aspects of torah they are even permitted to learn. Some say nothing, others say the opening chapters of genesis only, because that relates to the noachide laws. )
It's quite a natural and non-controversial point to say that jewish law , which as we know, actions on jewish festivals are based on.. Jewish law is for jews.
And from judaism's perspective, it doesn't make sense for gentiles to keep it.
And the controversial aspect, that it's not allowed, is not controverisla at all, it's backed up by that thing I mentioned.. about the torah being our inheritance and our betrothed. Even teaching it to them is limited. For example, no oral law.
And to make it a little worse, I vaguely recall that fasting on Yom Kippur, is based on oral tradition. The written law just says you shall afflict yourselves.
My point though, is a far more timely one. The phenomena of jews for jesus, which we see so strongly in our times, is encouraged by jews encouraging christians to "embrace" bits of judaism. Jews -have- to know this.
This is a point to jews rather than an objection to what she does.
And the point is extremely relevant to recent forum activity.. particularly in this thread.
I'll have you know that mumofsixbabes has already PMed me to tell me I am the devil.
We have many many level-headed serious and intelligent christian members. We don't need to worry if a few mentally unstable people get turned off.
I can tell you that most of the time, everybody understands me. I'm VERY clear!
(infact, I think you only misunderstood me regarding the tree comment, as a subconscious effort! In order to give a balanced criticism to everybody including me)
I will avoid sounding elitist by not continuously quoting/responding directly, to those that can't deal with the power of my logic. This does stifle debate though. And if I do sound elitist, you have to remember, i'm British, and there are people here that can't even spell!!!!! ;-)
Topic: I think I must fast and pray for the next days ahead (Read 3782 times)