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Who wrote the Zohar - Rashbi or Moshe de Leon?

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q_q_:

--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on November 06, 2008, 05:40:27 PM ---There are Portuguese (or Spanish) words in the text of the Zohar.   Granted, they are very few, but one of them I know for a fact was "Esnoga" which was the word for synagogue in Portuguese or Spanish in Moshe de Leon's day.   Very few relative to the mass of text, but nonetheless they are there.  There is no way that Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai wrote these out-of-place words.   Nonetheless, some of the material in the text is clear to have come from a more ancient (word of mouth) tradition. 

--- End quote ---

<snip>


--- Quote from: q_q_ on November 06, 2008, 04:39:45 PM ---   It is accepted by most great rabbis as completely holy.. 

--- End quote ---

What does this mean "completely holy" ?

In the general sense, all sefarim are holy.

[/quote]

I could have said authentic.
But if it or parts of it are not authentic then.. Well,

 there is an issue here, and it does relate to holyness.

And this is just my instinctive thinking here,

If this book is claiming to be from a certain person, and it isn't, then you can't take it so seriously.  And if we know that some claims there are complete mistakes. Not just words from another language. But mistakes.
(this is a criticism made by some scholars).
Then you can't consider those parts holy. Except in the weakest sense perhaps, that the person made an effort!, but you're not going to meditate over the truth of something you believe is wrong.
Infact, really it does bring any part of the book into question.
It undermines the holyness of the book.  

And the parts that you believe are wrong. They can't be holy.


I haven't read the zohar, but I suppose though, the book itself doesn't say who wrote it. So it could be that the rabbi and kabbalist, Moses De Leon somehow was incorrect in saying that it was written by Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai.
i.e. The book itself doesn't make a false claim regarding who wrote it.

Its origins are unknown.

But the idea that it is 100% from rabbi shimon bar yochai(perhaps he was basing it on traditions from sinai or heaven) that is what makes it so treasured by kabbalists.  He is very trusted.

And if it isn't from him, then there is a risk that it is from some rebel scholar's imagination, then nobody would consider it holy..

A holy mystical book isn't a work of man's mind.  For example, the RAMCHAL claims to have been taught by an angel. That is why his original mystical work is so valued.   If he hadn't been taught by an angel, or had ruach hakodesh or some heavenly intervention, then it would just be his imagination.. it would be a mockery.   Mystical works are not based on opinions.. The claim is they are really heavenly.  

The Arizal claims to have been taught by Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai and other heavenly teachers while he slept.    That is how his work is considered so holy.

a holy mystical work is not like a holy halachic work.   In that a holy halachic work you could say is the rabbi's great intellectual mind and reasoning, and tireless effort.   But a mystical book is creative. It is either heavenly or imaginative fiction.

And really. once you question part of the book, it brings the whole book into question. And really you can't take it too seriously once you have done that in your mind.  Mystical books are really claiming to be new revelations, or revealing parts of the siniatic revelation that were passed down but not publically. That's where their holyness derives.  

To say that the book has ideas that are reflected in other kabbalistic books..and so the author was a scholar. Well, that's nice, so don't throw it out,  but as a mystical work it loses its awe.  And what is a mystical work without its awe. It's not really mystical anymore.

q_q_:

--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on November 06, 2008, 05:59:13 PM ---Botsina Deqardinuta or in Hebrew "Menorah HaShuka" literally a "lamp of darkness" a lamp that exudes darkness rather than light. Sounds like a black hole to me, the best description in human language of a black hole.

--- End quote ---

the context may show that it's not talking about black holes at all.

The fact is that somebody could come up with the expression lamp of darkness quite easily.

A lamp normally gives off light. So an obvious paradox, is a lamp that gives darkness.   It's something a human could come up with. So it doesn't prove it is from the creator.

Space is black, so either there is no light.. Or, with some imagination, a human could say there are lamps(sources) of darkness, or a source producing darkness. And that's why space is black. They would be wrong of course. 

One would have to see the context of this expression "lamps of darkness". But you are wrong in saying that the expression itself is a reference to black holes!
And something a human could not have come up with.

I'm not even sure that a Menorah is a lamp..  It's often translated as a candelabrum or candelabra.   I know that some translations translate MaOhr as lamp. I suppose MaOhr means light source. In Beraishit(Genesis). The pasuk that G-d created the greater light(MaOhr) to govern the day and the lesser light(MaOhr) to govern the night.   I'm not sure that Menorah just means "light source" though.  Maybe the context of your verse will show it really meant a Menorah, a branched object.  I'm sure you would see it has nothing to do with black holes if you look at the context.

And i've shown how the expression  "lamp of darkness", can be thought of by a man.  As could candelabra of darkness. It's an obvious paradox, men can come up with paradoxes.   

Somebody could write about a zombie , and you could take one sentence that says it is neither alive nor dead.  And say LOOK, the author is writing about quantum theory, this is an older example of Shroedinger's cat.  Well, it isn't!







--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on November 06, 2008, 05:59:13 PM ---The Teymani are the oldest Yehudi community in the world. They go back to Shlomo HaMelak. They are some of the best Yehudim in the world and I am inclined to go with what they say, although Hakam Abuhatzera and the Ben Ish Hai were also the best Yehudim.     

--- End quote ---

I did read that yemenite jews were in some trouble at one point, not being so well educated in talmud, and so the RAMBAM's mishneh torah became their guiding light.

They certainly preserved the hebrew language well though..

So don't look at it like they definitely had all the traditions.

This history shows today. they revere the RAMBAM , he saved their community.

They probably know halacha really well compared to others.. Because the mishneh torah is a great codification of halacha.  But elevate them to the point of saying if they don't have it then it's not authentic!

muman613:
Shalom,

I dont know if Lamps of Darkness are really Black Holes. It may be a possible explanation but I would have to see the context of the discussion. If you could provide some context to this we could discuss that.

From what I understand, and it is limited at this time, much of Kabbalah involves discussion of the primordial light of creation. The well known concept of TzimTzum, constriction or contraction in order to make a makom for physicality, and the concept of Klippot, containers for the light.

Last night I read some Kabbalistic thought from the Breslov web site which discussed the Sefirot in relation to the force of evil. The link to this discussion is http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/spirituality_and_faith/kabbalah_and_mysticism/the_task_of_evil.aspx?id=10544&language=english. Many discussions involve the concept of light.

I will quote from a dafyomi review @


--- Quote ---http://dafyomireview.com/article.php?docid=205

Excerpt from Derech Etz Chaim by Rabby Moshe Chaim Luzatto
  The creator of man, and his guide, made him and established him ready to understand and to comprehend greater comprehension than the ministering angels. And the Sages have already said (Midrash Bereishis Raba 17):"He (G-d) said to them (the angels): 'his wisdom is greater than yours'." And when man desires understanding in G-d's way, G-d will guide him to fathom until the heaven of heavens - things which stand in the loftiest heights of the universe. But, behold, the good is in his hands and he has the power to choose - to become wise and to know, or to remain naked of all wisdom, even though the heart and the intellect are inside his body.

And this you will see, that there are two things which were created with one likeness (both function together) - the intellect of the man and the torah which gives him the intelligence. On the torah it is written "Is not My word like fire? says the L-ORD; and like a hammer that smashes the rock in pieces?" (Yirmiyahu 23:29). He has told us in this that it is the truth of the matter that the torah is literally a light that was given to Yisrael (the Jewish people) to enlighten in it. Because it is not like the wisdom of the nations and the secular knowledge, which are nothing more than knowledge which the intellect reaches after toiling (to understand it). Rather, the torah, behold, it is holy, which has a supernal existence in the loftiest heights, and when a man toils in it below, it is a light which illuminates in his soul to elevate it to the treasures on high, the treasures of the Creator, may His name be blessed. And this is what the wise man said (King Solomon) "And torah is light" (Mishlei 6:23), literally light, and not just wisdom. And not that it is called "light" as a kind of comparison rather it is literally "light". Because this is its existence above (in the higher worlds), and when it enters the soul, the light enters it just like the sun's rays enter inside a house.

Behold with great precision it (the torah) was compared to fire and with precise choice of word. Because when you see an ember which does not flame, and the energy of the flame is inside, hidden and closed, until one blows on it, then the flame spreads out and goes forth, and in that flame is visible many colors, what was not previously visible in the ember, and everything came out from the ember. So too, the torah which is in front of us, because all of its words and letters are like embers, which when you ignite them look the same. One sees only embers which are also almost dim. And he who exerts himself to toil in it, then it will flame from every letter a mighty flame full of many colors, which are the knowledge which are hidden inside that letter. This has already been explained in the Zohar on the Alef-Beit, and the matter is not an analogy, rather it is itself actual and completely literal. Because all the (22) letters that we see in the torah, all of them teach on the 22 lights which exist on high. And these supernal lights, shine on the letters. And from them comes the holiness of the torah, the holiness of the sefer torah, tefilin, and mezuzos, and all the holy writings. And according to the holiness in which they were written, so too will be the resting and shining of these lights on the letters. Therefore the sefer torah which has one invalid letter, becomes entirely invalid because the lights cannot remain in it properly, that it should pull down the holiness to the congregation with the power of the reading of it.

--- End quote ---

May the light of zion shine forever and ever...

muman613

Sefardic Panther:
See Zohar Parashat Bereshith 1:15a. This is discussing the creation of the world. The top Sefira Kether is described as “botsina deqardinuta”. Not only does lamp of darkness sound like black hole but Kether is the transition between Ein Sof (the infinite G-d) and finite creation. A black hole is a transition from normal time to imaginery time.

As I said before Moshe DeLeon oviously had access to earlier valid Toranic teaching. There are many other discussions of creation in Torah which refer to black holes. For instance Bereshith 1:2 “Weha'arets hayetah tohu wavohu wehoshech al-peney tehom” (the universe was chaos and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep). The Bahir says that “bohu” is a void in which is substance. Rambam said in Moreh Nevuchim 2:30 that “hoshech” is not simply an absence of light but black fire. Tehom is an abyss, something with no bottem.

You may dispute the reference to black hole in the Zohar itself, but when you corralate it with other references to black holes in other discussions of creation it becomes indisputable.

Shabat Shalom 

muman613:
Shabbat Shalom Sefardic Panther,

I love Parasha Lech Lecha....

muman613

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