Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Great new shiur from Rav Bar Hayim
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Kezaith shiur summary - All of this is in the name of Rav David Bar Hayim, from his audio shiur, and if I have conveyed anything incorrectly it is due to my own mistake or my own misunderstanding. Anyone who understands any aspects of the shiur differently are welcome to correct me or offer their own opinion. Hopefully I am conveying the message Rav Bar Hayim sought to present.
Part 1
Rav Bar Hayim begins with two stories of events that happened to him recently.
1. Sukkoth at a Teymani shul the Rav was davening at, a local area rabbi/dayan who frequents this shul, taps on the shtender (stand) and says “There is a well known misswa on first night of Passover seder to have a keziath of bread (in that case, matzah), and there is also to do so on first night Sukkoth, a mitzvah deraisa min ha Torah, so we have to be machmir (strict) about the size of keziath and must eat 60 g of bread in the sukkah tonight.” Rav Bar Hayim says his blood pressure went through the roof but refrained from publicly arguing. Only afterwards, Rav Bar Hayim spoke with him personally and informed calmly, there has never been an olive in history of the world 60g weight. This unnamed rabbi/dayan responded: “I don’t want to hear what you have to say – you are wrong. It’s forbidden to argue with the poskim.” Conversation over.
2. Second anecdote: This shul davens 7am Shabbat morning in winter, 7:30am in summer. People wanted to keep it 7:30 for winter. One guy says, this could cause problem with krait shema in winter. Privately again, Rav Bar Hayim says, if you say so, you must hold by Magen Avraham. This gentleman says yes. Rav Bar Hayim asks, ‘If so, why?’ The guy responds: “That’s the minhag from my grandfather, and minhag of shul… mishna brura, good to be machmir like Magen Avraham.” Rav Bar Hayim responds, “Are you aware that the shita (perspective ruling on the issue) of Magen Avraham on dividing up day into halachic hours is based on Rabenu Tam, and you can’t have one without the other. (ie, you have to also hold like Rabenu Tam to hold like Magen Avraham about when day ends and night begins – this area is the subject of a machloketh in the Talmud. But Magen Avraham bases his ruling on the understanding of Rabenu Tam). Most don’t realize this. The man had no clear answer but cited/hid behind Mishna Brurah and as a way to challenge Rav Bar Hayim and back him into a corner, asking “Ayn hamishna brerura mekubal al halacha?” Which I think translates to “Isn’t the Mishna Brurah accepted on the matters of halacha?” Implying that it is binding. Rav Bar Hayim said “NO.” The other fellow was very surprised. This will be explained later in this shiur.
Now onto some content. When does one begin to say prayer for rain in shemoneh esray in davening?- Everyone knows this would be day zion of the month, mar cheshvon. Rav comments, it’s been raining already for a while now in Israel, hasn’t it? Reason to wonder about this. There are two places in the shemoneh esray dealing with rain. One is the appreciation for rain, G-d’s ability to give rain, where we add in to the second bracha - mashiv haruach oomorid hagesham – “He makes the wind blow and He makes the rain descend.” Everyone agrees that this begins to be said in the Shemoneh Esray on motzei Shemini Atzereth (the night after the festival that follows Sukkoth). She’eylath geshamim is the addition to a later blessing, namely #9, blessing for a year of prosperity. The addition is “give dew and rain for a blessing” as opposed to just “give a blessing” which is what we say the rest of the year. There is discussion over when (what date) this should be added to the daily davening. Rabbi Meir in mishna says delay until 3rd of mar cheshvon. Rabban gamliel in mishna says 7th of mar cheshvon, 15 days after Sukkoth, so that the last of the oleh haregalim (those on pilgrimage to Israel for the festival – coming from Bavel) have a chance to get back to homes in Bavel. Normally we would ask for it before, but we wish for brethren not to be bogged down in rain traveling back – was very dangerous back then, difficult, could get stuck in mud, starve or could catch pneumonia etc, difficulty could also discourage coming back to the next festival. So R. Gamliel says Wait 15 days… So which opinion do we paskin by? (ie Which opinion do we base our ruling on?) Yerushalmi holds by stam (simple, plain) position from the mishnah, 3rd day. Bavli holds by 7th day. Rabbi Yochanan, quoted in both: (Bavli: daf daled amud beth in taanioth) - “as soon as you begin to say mashiv etc you say the dew and rain for blessing.” No one in either Talmud disagrees with him. Yerushalmi also holds by him. It includes also that 3 other chachamim poskened halacha (ruled on this issue) like Rabbi Yochanan.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
So now we have a question: Both Talmudim have the mishna saying one thing (namely, start this additional prayer on 3rd or zion (7th) mar cheshvon, respectively) while also quoting Rabbi Yochanan who paskened to begin earlier, at motzei Shemini Atzereth. Talmud Bavli answers, when there is a Beit haMikdash (Temple), wait for Bavli brethren to return home, we take them into account. When there is no Beit HaMikdash, there are not oleh regalim traveling from Bavel and other places, so there is nothing to take into account. In that case begin asking for rain immediately after Shemini Atzereth. This answer is also given by the Yerushalmi in more terse fashion. In other words, the mishna is speaking about when there is a beit hamikdash. Some rishonim, the Ran, Riaz, Meiri, Ritva rule according to this interpretation– when no Beth HaMikdash and no festival pilgrims, begin addition to the prayer right after Shemini Atzereth. Yerushalmi says similarly in more terse terms than the Bavli. Other rishonim (early halachic arbiters circa 1000-1400) do not acknowledge this distinction, including the Rif, Rambam, Rosh – mikdash or not, they rule according to Talmud Bavli opinion on this issue, the last opinion of the mishna – to start on zion mar cheshvon. Surprising – that they ignore the greatest amora, Rabbi Yochanan in a case when both Talmuds bring his opinion and no one argues against him. The reason why they rule this way is not clear. (Note from KWRBT: And certainly today there are no festival pilgrims to take into account and if they did come, the serious danger to life and limb that rain poses to traveling certainly does not exist anymore).
Comment from the crowd, and Rav Bar Hayim acknowledges his point that in some sugiyot (discussions), the Rambam sticks to the mishna more closely than opinions of the Amoraim, but nonetheless. Strange for Rambam to do so here. No explanation for why they (he along with the Rosh and Rif) hold this way by disregarding the issue of Rabbi Yochanan’s input. Both Talmudim agree and say the same thing, no other rabbis disagree or offer contrary opinions of any kind, yet they (these 3 rishonim) pasken otherwise. Very little pilpul in Jerusalem Talmud discussion. Tells halacha clearly. Bavli characteristically takes a convoluted path but gets to the same end. Nevertheless, several rishonim DO hold according to Rabbi Yochanan. The implication here is that there is great reason to acknowledge their opinion, and little reason or justification to choose that of the Rambam/Rif/Rosh over the Ran, Riaz, Meiri, Ritva, etc who rule according to Rabbi Yochanan to begin this prayer addition immediately after Shemini Atzereth since there is no Beth Hamikdash today.
So, back to the anecdote #2 with the guy who asked about mishna brurah, he could also have said Shulchan Aruch? Aren’t these universally binding in the halacha? Rav Bar Hayim answers “No” there too. A Jew who is trying to live a life according to Torah, his allegiance is not to any specific person or any specific work, or any specific posek. As if this guy at shul was asking do I (Rav Bar Hayim) think Chofetz Chaim (author of mishna brurah) is competent? His question carried this undertone. Are you suggesting you somehow differ with Chofetz Chaim? Comment from the crowd: “It’s the system with which you disagree!” “Precisely, it’s the system which I am discussing. That’s the point.” “You disagree with the system!” “Yes, I agree, I do disagree with the system. Because precisely, [halacha] is not a popularity contest. Studying Torah or living Torah is not a popularity contest, or whether so-and-so was a Tzaddik or a gaon, which of course the Chofetz Chaim was, and he needs no approbation from me.”
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
If it’s clear to a person who knows how to learn, knows the sugya and what is going on, and knows what is the clear correct halachic approach, but “accepted” halacha or standard opinion differs, then there is a “conflict of interest” depending on whether someone is just interested in doing what everyone else does, which is often the case. Rather, let’s focus on truth. Emeth. Torah is not about following the crowd, or picking a football or soccer team you “root for,” it’s a quest for the truth. “The seal of Hakadosh Baruch Hu is the truth.” If a person knows something is true, but yet he is forced to do what he knows is not, it has pernicious implications.
It is not a great tragedy to say this addition to the blessing a few days later as the “accepted standard halacha” tells people to do. (note by KWRBT – although we do have a water shortage in Israel!!)…. It’s not such a tragedy, also to have 60 grams of bread, 2 and a half slices of bread, where only about 6 grams are required. (Due to this whole argument, Rav Bar Hayim did some research and weighing with scales, and the largest olive in the world is a rare jumbo species, is 6 grams. Average olive about 3.5 grams. When’s the last time an olive looked like the size of an egg or half an egg? Our eggs today do happen to be bigger than eggs in Talmudic times. Measure is in volume, not weight, but here we are conveying it in weight (grams) for practicality’s sake. More on the keziath later). Not a tragedy to make this mistake, but the real tragedy is the cognitive dissonance utilized in this approach to Torah. Everyone knows an olive does not weight 60 grams. It is the weight of a #2 egg in Israel today. There never has been an olive the size of an egg (an egg of today). Chazon Ish wrote that a keziath should be 45-50 cc (about 45-50 grams). But it is clear that chazal meant keziath the size of a regular olive, 3.5 grams. Mishna in Kaylim Perek Yud Zion contains mishnayot about the size of egg and a few mishanyot later, the size of the olive. kebaytza: Average medium sized chicken egg. Next mishna talks about a real regular size olive. A Dati (religious) professor in Bar Ilan is world renowned expert in botany and archaeology. He published that there are several trees in Israel today between 1500-2000 years old. Still alive! 7 in the Galil, over 3000 years old. Still alive and still producing olives. Same size as olives today. Yield (quantity) isn’t as high as younger trees, but the olives they do produce is the same size as regular olive trees today, same taste, color etc. More than enough evidence including living proof that olives were never gigantic and were always the same general size. However, egg size depends on size of chicken. Large white chickens brought from Europe a few hundred years ago produce large eggs. Middle Eastern black scrawny chickens produce much smaller eggs. (Smaller than #4 egg of Israel).
Not here to talk about olives and eggs. But this is a discussion about truth. Is the Torah lived and understood according to logic, reasoning, reality, or is it lived and learned completely separated from reality?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Challenge from the crowd: There is a gemara that says fleas can be produced through “spontaneous generation.” (gemara asks can you kill fleas on Shabbat) Also brought down as halacha by Shulchan Aruch (that you can kill the fleas on Shabbat, I believe). Should I throw out my gemara?
Rav Bar Hayim: No, you shouldn’t throw it out. That is one opinion in the Gemara. You should also know that there is an opinion in name of rebbi Eliezer hagadol (I think? Difficult to hear the name he said here), who says that he who kills a flea on Shabbat is like one who killed a camel. So clearly a contrary opinion exists. Abbaye had the other opinion which was accepted opinion throughout the world in his time. Only about 200 years or 300 yrs ago this view was rejected by science.
Crowd challenger again: Ok, what about the earth being the center of the universe? Based on scientific knowledge it was… overturned.
Rav Bar Hayim: Ok. Correct. If we know something to be true, it is an affront to Torah to pretend we don’t know what we know, or deny reality as we know it. Speaking of fact, not theory. There is a different between scientific facts and scientific theories. For example, we know the earth is not flat, easy to prove, photographs etc. A person not required by Torah to deny his tzelem Elokim. One major factor of this is daath. A nefesh chayah (living soul). Onkelos says a being that has speech. Speech is thought in the form of sounds to convey to others. A “speaking being” is a rational thinking being. Has ability to reason, think, and understand. Unlike the animals who don’t. That sets us apart as unique from all creations. Humans given da’ath. Intellect to discover the truth. It is an affront to the Torah and to any person’s intelligence, to believe that the Torath emeth (Torah of truth), demands us to believe things we know aren’t true, pretend false things are true and act on them as if true…. If that is how it is understood, as some understand the halachic system, this is a big problem. If a Jew is learned and well-read and he finds out in some case that a certain thing isn’t true. For example, why zion of mar cheshvon? Because there are oleh regalim (visitors from Bavel on the festival pilgrimage) and then the person says wait, but there aren’t any oleh regalim so why do we wait until zion of mar cheshvon today?
Interrupted with question: Minhag beth din that established it!?
Rav Bar Hayim: Where are you getting this from? There was no such thing.
Challenger dodges this and throws something new, ‘you can disregard Rabbi Yochanan… like Rambam does…. Etc…..’ Tape gets edited, presumably he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, he is reaching for every possible refutation.
Rav Bar Hayim says: Why would you disregard Rabbi Yochanan, there is no reason to logically. Furthermore, the ruling that we wait because of those on the festival pilgrimage simply does not make sense since there are none on the pilgrimage anymore.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Challenger again: “What’s the concept of the halachic process, at what point can we discard Gemaras? Can I disagree with Rishonim?
Rav Bar Hayim: I’m not talking about discarding gemaroth – I’m talking about looking at the sources. This appears in all the primary sources, some rishonim hold this way – that when there is no Beth Hamikdash we don’t wait to start the addition to the prayer – do you think it is more reasonable and a more viable system intellectually and emotionally to do something you know makes sense as opposed to something that does not make sense?
Challenger: Well I would say, it makes sense that we should ask for rain all year long based on older mesorah, and there are some points to bring to support me in that, but that’s not what’s done, and the question is why? Because of the mesorah and the sources that go against my intuition.
Rav Bar Hayim: (He said “perhaps” in response to ‘maybe we should pray for rain all year based on older mesorah.’) Now says, although I would rule according to Rambam probably about 85% of the time, a tremendous chacham and posek, on this issue he writes something that doesn’t square with the Talmudic reality not just according to us but to the Meiri, the Ran, the Ritva, etc as they all knew the facts. So you say how can I disregard Rambam? I’m not. I‘m choosing to hold by the Riaz, the Ran, the Ritva, Meiri, and Rabbi Yochanan who says very clearly and straightforward what to do, and not act according to view of Rambam, simply because of powerful arguments that the other approach is more fitting, appealing to a rational and logical halachic system. Eg: Rabbi Y. said so, both Talmuds said so, many Rishonim said so. Is this not enough to make a halachic decision?
Challenger: You have to explain why you have a right to… etc
Rav Bar Hayim: I disagree entirely. I’m not required to explain anything. Neither are you or anyone else. When Ran disagrees with Rambam, he tries to explain him if he can, or he will say “Rambam wrote such-and-such and I don’t think it’s correct because ______. And I think the halacha is such and such.” He doesn’t say, well I think the Rambam is incorrect, but because I don’t know his reason for what he said, follow what I think is wrong anyway and I won’t tell you what I really think. This doesn’t happen. (The Ran tells it as he sees it. And it was his requirement to do so, which he fulfilled, as Rav Bar Hayim is stressing in this shiur).
New questioner: Halacha in Shulchan Aruch based on Rambam, Rif, and Rosh…
Rav Bar Hayim: It’s not. That’s a myth. I can show 100 examples without exaggeration, where 2 of 3 said one thing, Shulchan Aruch said another.
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